Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi
newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I
had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and
would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent
after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with.

All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try
the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was
wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels
(balance) were set the same.

My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my
ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD
music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided
on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference.

This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and
because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in
almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him
at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they
simply don't, unless of course these amps are both not good. I will
concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did
not use an analogue source but even so...

Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon
was 300UKP cheaper.

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World,
August 2004 issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB
amplifiers and zero Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes
some way towards uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

I'm confident that one day everything I've had no problem hearing will be
explained, I've not seen this article and neither am I an amplifier expert
so I cannot comment on it.

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon.


They *all* look good in the dark!! ;-)


I'll be honest, I was more interested in the
projector at the time so I then had to catch up.


What was it? - My mate SN fell on his arse trying to impress me with a £5K
Mitsubishi HC2000 DLP jobbie! Nothing to write home about for that kind of
wedge, I'll tell ya!!

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Ian Molton wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article ,
Wally wrote:
the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.


That sounds rather tautological to me.


Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon.

They *all* look good in the dark!! ;-)


as opposed to looking at them in the cold, harsh light of day ... while
being stone cold sober?

;)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:56:02 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World,
August 2004 issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB
amplifiers and zero Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes
some way towards uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

I'm confident that one day everything I've had no problem hearing will be
explained, I've not seen this article and neither am I an amplifier expert
so I cannot comment on it.

I'm confident that you're an arrogant arse who can't hear jack ****.
Care to prove me wrong, prove that you really can hear all this
******** you claim, and collect a grand for your trouble?

If not, then keep your delusions to yourself.

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

So speak to me face to face.

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon. I'll be honest, I was more interested in the
projector at the time so I then had to catch up.

Don't tell me - he even heard it from the loo while it was flushing?

:-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.


That sounds rather tautological to me.


Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:




Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).


The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.


I have seen the TAS at my newsagent from time to time.

Btw, I think Stereophile is esoteric compared to What Hi Fi and Hi Fi
Choice!

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers.

Can't comment on "popular opinion" beyond noticing that abc1 has just
started on Freeview. :-)

However I am personally quite happy to accept that some amplifiers can make
audible differences in some circumstances.

I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004 issue,
where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then I'd
recommend treating them with *great* caution.

I have been collecting them and trying to make sense of his claims and
"explanations". A lot of what he writes seems to me to be muddled,
ambiguous, and misleading. There are some useful points, but they are
buried in a lot of muddled arguments and misleading "explanations", I
think. Also quite a lot of what I might call "make mountains out of
molehills by describing well know effects out of context in a confused
manner". However I have been waiting until the full series is finished
before anaysing them in critical detail.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Tat Chan
wrote:


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

HFN does both 'auditions' (no real measurements) and 'lab tests'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will sound
identical.

**Duh. The trick is, that many amps are actually measurably wrong, when
driving real world speakers. The catch is, of course, that few measurements
are conducted when the amplifier is connected to an actual speaker.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:09:38 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.

I have seen the TAS at my newsagent from time to time.

Btw, I think Stereophile is esoteric compared to What Hi Fi and Hi Fi
Choice!

What Hi-Fi certainly, but Hi-Fi Choice often goes pretty upmarket -
although not generally above £10k, to be sure. Mind you, you'd expect
some similarities in style between HFN and S'pile, as S'pile's editor
used to edit HFN.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In message , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi
newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I
had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and
would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent
after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with.

All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try
the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was
wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels
(balance) were set the same.

My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my
ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD
music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided
on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference.

This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and
because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in
almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him
at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they
simply don't, unless of course these amps are both not good. I will
concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did
not use an analogue source but even so...

Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon
was 300UKP cheaper.

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.



Oh Please don't bring Graham up, his articles are full of half-truths
masquerading as 'research'.
--
Chris Morriss

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not.

Actually, it is. Consider...

"all amps, able to accurately replicate the input signal on the output
terminals, will sound identical"

If it isn't, then what does "accurately" mean in this context?


You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers
get up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better'
at a simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why
some of the more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

Not relevant to the proposition being analysed.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 02:03:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:
the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

What tricks do they get up to?

--
Cheers, Des

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:57:37 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote:

In message , Trevor Wilson
writes

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.


Oh Please don't bring Graham up, his articles are full of half-truths
masquerading as 'research'.

Ah, but Trevor will uncritically wolf down anything which says that
zero global feedback is best! :-)

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

I'll be honest, I was more interested in the projector at the time so
I then had to catch up.

What was it? - My mate SN fell on his arse trying to impress me with a
£5K Mitsubishi HC2000 DLP jobbie! Nothing to write home about for that
kind of wedge, I'll tell ya!!

There were two in the room, one was a Domino ~3500UKP a bit pricey and to
my surprise they also had a screenplay 4805 which is much cheaper around
1300UKP. Due to circumstances I did not have a long time to compare them
(it was not my dem session) and the Domino was driven from my mate dave's
Sony DVD recorder and the 4805 was driven from a Arcam DVD player nearly
1000UKP as I understand it.

IMHO the Arcam/4805 was the better combination. Not entirely sure if that
suggests anything but it was interesting.



Yes, I imagine it was.

I think that, until the 3 chip DLP models are available/affordable, there's
not much point in spending more than a grand on a LCD panasonic...

(Only downside is that they are a bit 'short' for large rooms...)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.



OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying, but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers.

Can't comment on "popular opinion" beyond noticing that abc1 has just
started on Freeview. :-)

However I am personally quite happy to accept that some amplifiers can
make
audible differences in some circumstances.

I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004 issue,
where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then I'd
recommend treating them with *great* caution.

I have been collecting them and trying to make sense of his claims and
"explanations". A lot of what he writes seems to me to be muddled,
ambiguous, and misleading. There are some useful points, but they are
buried in a lot of muddled arguments and misleading "explanations", I
think. Also quite a lot of what I might call "make mountains out of
molehills by describing well know effects out of context in a confused
manner". However I have been waiting until the full series is finished
before anaysing them in critical detail.

**I look forward to your analysis.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying, but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...


Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know
anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the
same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying,
but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--


No, sorry, probably didn't make myself clear - I mean a *specific*
example(s) like 'Cyrus X', 'Quad Y', MF 'Z' or whatever....??

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model amps
would you regard as 'bad'....???

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


If you are referring to the series of articles by Graham Maynard then
I'd recommend treating them with *great* caution.


**I look forward to your analysis.

Stay tuned, but patience may be required. I'm still awaiting the conclusion
of his series of articles. Also, our library didn't get one issue so I'm
chasing that at present. Once I have them all I have to plough through his
rather rambling and ambiguous prose. (Have you tried counting how many
words some of his 'sentences' have!) Then I'll have to try and work out a
detailed re-analysis.

FWIW I think he has one or two decent points to make, but makes then in a
way that camoflages them in a forest of dubious claims, mountains out of
molehills, etc. I think the phrase for this is a "curate's egg". :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
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Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Keith G wrote:

Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Actually Im not running the Quad at present - I broke it about a year
ago and have had neither the time nor money to rebuild it.

Mine is a Mk I, and yes, it does struggle a *LITTLE* driving very
difficult loads at high power, however I dont generally run at those
levels anyhow.

I'm partway through a rebuild which combines 405-2 current limiting, 606
style output, and halves the input gain. I'll be making my own PCBs.
basically a Mk 2.5

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

Not a very good review. no real figures at all, in fact "we thought the
treble sucked but couldnt actually measure this" was all they really had
to say. the 405-2 review seems to say just what I did - 'Very competant
amp but nothing superleague'

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

It does get warm, but I think 'bun dryer-outer' is all you could really say.

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Heh. my current amp is an AIWA A25 which used to belong to me dad. The
poor thing does struggle on me radfords though (30% volume maxes it out)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin'
Quad 405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Actually Im not running the Quad at present - I broke it about a year ago
and have had neither the time nor money to rebuild it.

Mine is a Mk I, and yes, it does struggle a *LITTLE* driving very
difficult loads at high power, however I dont generally run at those
levels anyhow.

I'm partway through a rebuild which combines 405-2 current limiting, 606
style output, and halves the input gain. I'll be making my own PCBs.
basically a Mk 2.5

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

Not a very good review. no real figures at all, in fact "we thought the
treble sucked but couldnt actually measure this" was all they really had
to say. the 405-2 review seems to say just what I did - 'Very competant
amp but nothing superleague'

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

It does get warm, but I think 'bun dryer-outer' is all you could really
say.

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Heh. my current amp is an AIWA A25 which used to belong to me dad. The
poor thing does struggle on me radfords though (30% volume maxes it out)


OK, fair enough all that - one thing us *valveheads* never normally do is
get all hot and sweaty about other people's choice of kit and their
reason(s) for using it - unless we get pushed into an 'aggressively
defensive' situation. I had a couple of 33/303/FM3 combos that I loved and
would have kept them if I had room for all the stuff I've tinkered with over
the last few years and hadn't needed the proceeds for p/x purposes....

Anyway, I've had me instructions - I've been told to stop punting valves and
valve gear as its pushing prices up apparently......!!! :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:28:08 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...


Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin' Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Only if you're a hyena, or someone of equivalent intelligence.........

Within its current limit, the 405 (the -2 really just has higher
current limiting) is an extremely linear amp, and fully meets the
'sounds like any other good amp' criterion.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:51:54 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know
anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the
same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying,
but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--

No, sorry, probably didn't make myself clear - I mean a *specific*
example(s) like 'Cyrus X', 'Quad Y', MF 'Z' or whatever....??

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model amps
would you regard as 'bad'....???

Any single-ended valve amp....., and IME, any amp costing less than
£200 - except from Richer Sounds!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:51:54 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:42:04 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:52:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know
anyone
(as in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi
who
would say amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion
here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the
same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

Sorry, there are *lots* of competent amps around. The basic
preconditions of no clipping and level matching from 20-20,000 Hz
seems adequate to eliminate the dross.

OK, but 'dross' like what? OK, *all* valves amps - goes without saying,
but
fer gawd's sake give us an example of what you consider to be 'dross'???

That should be obvious - any amplifier which does *not* sound just
like its input signal. And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed
passc this fundamental test of fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

I would also simplfy things by including all amps with less than 30
watts output per channel into 8 ohms, all amps not capable of driving
a 2 ohm load to at least three times the rated 8-ohm power (at least
for a few seconds, and I'll accept a valve amp used on the 4-ohm tap
for this test), and all amps with more than 0.1% THD from 20Hz to
20kHz at all power levels up to 75% of full output, and more than 0.1%
HF IMD on a two-tone test. Those measurements (boo, hiss!) will IME
ensure that the first and most important condition is met.
--

No, sorry, probably didn't make myself clear - I mean a *specific*
example(s) like 'Cyrus X', 'Quad Y', MF 'Z' or whatever....??

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model amps
would you regard as 'bad'....???

Any single-ended valve amp....., and IME, any amp costing less than
£200 - except from Richer Sounds!


Wot a ****ing stoopid response - so *all* other amps not included in the
above meet with your personal approval, do they? Kinda tough on anyone
trying to get decent sound on a budget, innit? (Glad my chinky cheapy makes
the grade in the 'Official, Pink Amplifiers Guide To The Galaxy'..... :-)

You duck, you dive, you stay alive - but is there any real point to either
*you* or the crap you post?

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 12:28:08 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Bob Latham wrote:

Provided you are also saying that there are very few competent amps
around
I think I could just about swallow that.

There probably a fair number of them. *I* certainly havent auditioned
anywhere close to enough amps to say so.

I'd guess my Quad405 is probably up there in the 'pretty decent' range,
although nowhere near the top of it...


Oh dear oh dear!

Sorry to be on your case today, my little Molton Larva, but all this yap
from you about *hi*fi and distortion etc. and you're running a fekkin'
Quad
405!! Priceless!! Which one - the 405-2?

Anyway, go to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/655/ and
follow the links at the bottom of the page......

(Didn't they also double as bun-warmers....???)

Ya hafta fekkin' larf...... :-)

Only if you're a hyena, or someone of equivalent intelligence.........


How TF would you know? - I reckon just about *any* hyena would leave you
miles behind in an 'intelligence race'....



Within its current limit, the 405 (the -2 really just has higher
current limiting) is an extremely linear amp, and fully meets the
'sounds like any other good amp' criterion.


Sez who?

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Keith G wrote:

... the 'Official, Pink Amplifiers Guide To The Galaxy'..... :-)

You duck, you dive, you stay alive - but is there any real point to
either *you* or the crap you post?

Entertainment. :-)


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model
amps would you regard as 'bad'....???

Any single-ended valve amp....., and IME, any amp costing less than
£200 - except from Richer Sounds!

Stewart, you post a lot of articles that make good sense and over my years
of lurking I've actually learned to treat your opinions with respect, even
if I don't agree with them, but that arrant ******** has destroyed any
credibility you had with me.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed pass this fundamental test of
fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

Don't lead Keith up the garden path here - the CJs are a Mullard circuit dating
from a few centuries before Christ, with second rate choices of valves (the
usual suspects like ECC**, EL34s, 6550s etc) and the ARC is no better, and
doesn't even have the luxury of the CJs polystyrene caps. For serious valve
sound start somewhere around Lamm ML1 and the Nagra PP 845 amp and then start
getting better. I used to have a Prem, by the way.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed pass this fundamental test of
fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

Don't lead Keith up the garden path here - the CJs are a Mullard circuit
dating
from a few centuries before Christ, with second rate choices of valves
(the
usual suspects like ECC**, EL34s, 6550s etc) and the ARC is no better, and
doesn't even have the luxury of the CJs polystyrene caps. For serious
valve
sound start somewhere around Lamm ML1 and the Nagra PP 845 amp and then
start
getting better. I used to have a Prem, by the way.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

I agree, the VT-100 also has had several revisions since it came out. The
Prem had several different versions I believe with different power valves
(the Xcess was one if I remember right). How did you get on with the Prem
Andy?


Mike

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
And yes Keith, a few valve amps can indeed pass this fundamental test of
fidelity - but they're very expensive.
Think C-J Premier Eight and ARC VT-100 etc.

Don't lead Keith up the garden path here


Fat chance!

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

... the 'Official, Pink Amplifiers Guide To The Galaxy'..... :-)

You duck, you dive, you stay alive - but is there any real point to
either *you* or the crap you post?

Entertainment. :-)


Nah, he's like a two disc 'record collection' - starts off fine and then
gets just plain boring.....

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

Disc 1 - my kit is accurate and 'high fidelity'.....

Disc 2 - yours isn't.......

etc. etc. etc......


Get the idea....??? :-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stimpy" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Or, put it another way, what freely available/current make and model
amps would you regard as 'bad'....???

Any single-ended valve amp....., and IME, any amp costing less than
£200 - except from Richer Sounds!

Stewart, you post a lot of articles that make good sense and over my years
of lurking I've actually learned to treat your opinions with respect, even
if I don't agree with them, but that arrant ******** has destroyed any
credibility you had with me.



Strange, he's posted far worse ******** than that for a *long* time now -
what finally tripped your switch??