On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 20:06:52 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

On 17 Oct 2004 19:45:44 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

Contrary to what Stewart and others think, I've spent 35 years building and
tweaking hifi with one aim in mind - to make the hi-fi system sound like live
music.

Why is that 'contrary to what I think'? In point of fact, I'm sure
that it's absolutely true - I also think that you're going about it
the wrong way! :-)

I didn't use measurements for this, I used my ears since I've been a
professional musician for most of my life. I also did all improvements
methodically, switching one thing at a time, and preferring a closer approach
to the original sound, more fidelity in instrumental timbre and more detail,
reasoning that any unrealistic timbre or detail masked was not 'fidelity' to
the source. OK. ~ Now the point is this:
How many of us know exactly how acoustic instruments and voices actually sound?

At least three regular posters attend jazz and other unamplified
concerts on a regular basis. I'm one of them.

If you go to live classical or jazz concerts where music is unamplified (plus
folk etc), it actually has a particular sound to it which is smooth, natural,
even bland. It's unimpressive in many ways compared to our "delusional" hifi
kits and our delusional hifi language.

Agreed. The common 'hi-fi' sound is anything but!

It doesn't have 'warmth', or 'bloom' or
'bass slam' or even PRAT. What it does have is a lot of nothing - nothing
between individual instruments except space.

It's absolutely *not* 'nothing', some of us call it atmosphere.....

To reproduce this it's necessary
to reproduce a lot of nothing, which is the fantastically difficult bit. It
means no gloss on the treble, no large soundstage to instruments - they should
sound like small point sources in exact locations in the soundstage - no
'dynamics' that aren't actually there, and no 'bass slam'. Pretty boring you
might say. And very hard to achieve - you have to eliminate resonances, all
sorts of interferences etc etc. You don't so much 'build' a syetem but 'take
away' infidelities of all kinds.
At this point Stewart must be rubbing his hands and saying "I told you so -
acoustically transparent".

Close enough for guv'mnt work................. :-)

Jim must be happy that the amplifier doesn't exist.
It all sounds great. Except that this isn't the gospel according to Stewart.
Because:
a) I'm quite sure amplifiers and indeed componants sound different, and I've
been doing systematic choices between componants to eliminate infidelities for
countless years.

I'm quite sure that good ones don't, but I can still count the years!

b) I've done all this by ear

Me too, but under controlled conditions.

c) I use all valve equipment, and I don't think I could get transparency so
easily with solid state.

I use all solid-state equipment, because it's very difficult - and
extremely expensive - to achieve sonic transparency using valves.
OTOH, getting *added* 'nothing', i.e. reverberant hall ambience, is
very easy with valves.....................

d) I don't think valves sound 'warm' - another delusion - the ones I build
sound smooth (to my ears smoother than solid state) and dynamic (without a kind
of 'greyness' I hear in some solid state products)

Anything which does not sound *exactly* like a top-class solid state
amp is not removing 'greyness', it's *adding* artifacts. That these
artifacts are euphonic, so you obviously *like* that artificial sound,
is another matter. It's easy to make an amp sound smooth when you
knock off the edges that were in the input signal................

e) I don't think there is such a thing as 'acoustically transparent', only
approximations towards this goal.

I do, and I can prove it with a bypass test.

Why this post then? I just eliminated another level of grunge - yes, more has
"gone" leaving the sound a lot better. I started by using better speaker cables
(solid copper core, the previous ones were coloured).

Oh, phukkin' L!!!........................

I hope you mean that they were yellow, not that they actually sounded
different. Otherwise, you're a maroon.

Then I wired my whole
system through a monster variac which I have (25 amps). Obviously an effective
mains cleaner.

No, it has no effect at all, other than varying the voltage. That's
what a Variac is *for*, it varies AC - Variac, geddit?

Some studios use huge toroids for this, like over 1K VA
isolation transformers, e.g. mine is over a foot in diameter and 6" high.

An isolation transformer is an *entirely* different beast, and
requires specialist grounding techniques to be effective. Your
imagination of course requires no such technical input!

snip gushing expression of vivid imagination

BTW, sounds like you may have a hum problem in your system, 50Hz as
opposed to PSU ripple. The best way to fix that is with a 'scope, as
it's difficult to hear, nearly subliminal in most systems. You really
just feel that an odd veiling has been lifted when you remove the hum.
Hey!............

Interesting essay, Andy - but you've wasted your time. The decision as
to whether what comes out of your Hi Fi sounds like live music has
been made long before any piece of media reaches your hands, and the
decision in pretty much 100% of cases is "no, it won't sound like live
music, it will sound the way the producer likes it". Unless you make
your own recordings, that is the situation you are stuck with and you
just have to make the best of it.

Quite so. But you have to admire ol' Andy's enthusiasm, however
misguided..... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

A few detail corrections here, where my meaning doesn't seem to have been
correctly understood:

What it does have is a lot of nothing - nothing between individual instruments
except space.

It's absolutely *not* 'nothing', some of us call it atmosphere..... (SP)

Yes of course - but what I was trying to say here was that there was 'nothing'
in the places bewteen instruments in place of the larger image of the
instrument caused by resonances etc.

b) I've done all this by ear
Me too, but under controlled conditions.(SP)
As I said, when I AB componants I do it one change at a time, and if possible
put the system back again to verify the change. I also control what I listen to
(acoustic music which is a known reference) and what I listen for (timbre and
known low level details which are nearly inaudible)
How, precisely, is Stewart listening differently from this?

ss versus valve - no comment, we've been there countless times, except:
"it's very difficult - and extremely expensive - to achieve sonic transparency
using valves."(SP)
It may be difficult and time consuming, but not expensive if you build
yourself. If you are going to buy, a Nagra VPA will set you back over £10k it
is true, but then so will a lot of ss amps.

"Anything which does not sound *exactly* like a top-class solid state amp is
not removing 'greyness', it's *adding* artifacts.(SP)
Well, this is where we disagree, as you well know and as I pointed out from the
first.

Then I wired my whole system through a monster variac which I have (25
amps). Obviously an effective mains cleaner.

No, it has no effect at all (SP)

Now this is where you constantly get into real trouble, Stewart. You are not
present when members of this newsgroup tweak their systems, you are not
listening so you can't possibly hear anything or comment factually, yet you
persist in telling people what they are hearing. Frankly, it's bizarro stuff.

That's what a Variac is *for*, it varies AC - Variac, geddit? (SP)
Stewart, you ar not the only person on this ng who knows what a Variac is

An isolation transformer is an *entirely* different beast,
An isolation transformer is a toroid with 230v in and 230v out, unless my
electronics catalogues are lying. You may be talking about balanced power lines
here?

BTW, sounds like you may have a hum problem in your system, 50Hz as
opposed to PSU ripple.

Now this is constructive. I've been reading about this on DIY audio, including
how to use probes since in some countries neutral is referenced to earth. I
really know very little about this, since cleaning mains supplies is completely
new to me.





=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

On 18 Oct 2004 09:10:33 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

Then I wired my whole system through a monster variac which I have (25
amps). Obviously an effective mains cleaner.

No, it has no effect at all (SP)

Now this is where you constantly get into real trouble, Stewart. You are not
present when members of this newsgroup tweak their systems, you are not
listening so you can't possibly hear anything or comment factually, yet you
persist in telling people what they are hearing. Frankly, it's bizarro stuff.

Nope, I'm simply pointing out that a Variac doesn't clean the mains.
What you *really* did to your system may be something entirely
different, which may indeed have had an audible effect. Did you
conveniently ignore my later comments re hum?

That's what a Variac is *for*, it varies AC - Variac, geddit? (SP)
Stewart, you ar not the only person on this ng who knows what a Variac is

Probably true, but not including you. You apparently did not know that
it's not an isolation transformer, and certainly does not 'clean' the
mains.

An isolation transformer is an *entirely* different beast,
An isolation transformer is a toroid with 230v in and 230v out, unless my
electronics catalogues are lying. You may be talking about balanced power lines
here?

BTW, sounds like you may have a hum problem in your system, 50Hz as
opposed to PSU ripple.

Now this is constructive. I've been reading about this on DIY audio, including
how to use probes since in some countries neutral is referenced to earth. I
really know very little about this, since cleaning mains supplies is completely
new to me.

It's a complex subject, involving (shock, horror!) measurements.
Luckily, they're easy to do if you have a even the most basic 'scope.
Me, I use fully isolated supplies and a technical earth. For the
uninitiated, that's a feckin' great copper spike driven into the earth
below my listening room, rather than whatever ****e (technical term)
East Midlands Electricity deigns to call 'earth'.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 18 Oct 2004 09:10:33 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

Then I wired my whole system through a monster variac which I have (25
amps). Obviously an effective mains cleaner.

No, it has no effect at all (SP)

Now this is where you constantly get into real trouble, Stewart. You are
not
present when members of this newsgroup tweak their systems, you are not
listening so you can't possibly hear anything or comment factually, yet
you
persist in telling people what they are hearing. Frankly, it's bizarro
stuff.

Nope, I'm simply pointing out that a Variac doesn't clean the mains.
What you *really* did to your system may be something entirely
different, which may indeed have had an audible effect. Did you
conveniently ignore my later comments re hum?

That's what a Variac is *for*, it varies AC - Variac, geddit? (SP)
Stewart, you ar not the only person on this ng who knows what a Variac is

Probably true, but not including you. You apparently did not know that
it's not an isolation transformer, and certainly does not 'clean' the
mains.

An isolation transformer is an *entirely* different beast,
An isolation transformer is a toroid with 230v in and 230v out, unless my
electronics catalogues are lying. You may be talking about balanced power
lines
here?

BTW, sounds like you may have a hum problem in your system, 50Hz as
opposed to PSU ripple.

Now this is constructive. I've been reading about this on DIY audio,
including
how to use probes since in some countries neutral is referenced to earth.
I
really know very little about this, since cleaning mains supplies is
completely
new to me.

It's a complex subject, involving (shock, horror!) measurements.
Luckily, they're easy to do if you have a even the most basic 'scope.
Me, I use fully isolated supplies and a technical earth. For the
uninitiated, that's a feckin' great copper spike driven into the earth
below my listening room, rather than whatever ****e (technical term)
East Midlands Electricity deigns to call 'earth'.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart's dead right, don't forget you'll need a bl****dy big 'ammer to
knock it in with. Its amazing the amount of cr**p on Hydro Electric here
even in the Highlands. If you don't have a scope then you can loan for a
nominal sum a mains 'sniffer' of Russ Andrews and hear all the burps,
noises, clicks buzzes that reside on your supply. As Stewart say's a girt
copper spike driven deep into the ground works a treat..somewhere for 'em
all to go. During the summer months I have been known to pour a couple of
buckets of water on the spike surface is to help ground conduction...how mad
is that ;-)

Andy Evans wrote:
Contrary to what Stewart and others think, I've spent 35 years building and
tweaking hifi with one aim in mind - to make the hi-fi system sound like live
music.

Of course, no-one else here wants their HiFi to sound like they are
'there' then...

what a load of cobblers. full of vague garbage like "warm" "nothing
there" "PRAT" (whatever it is) and plenty of SS digs with no evidence to
back them.

and this 'multiple instruments in different places' crapola... your
EARS are effectively point recording sources, with their own
acoustics... if you're trying to reproduce that, try a pair of
headphones, a sub, and a binaural recording... no speaker system is
going to beat the stereo seperation of a pair of headphones...

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
Andy Evans wrote:
Contrary to what Stewart and others think, I've spent 35 years building
and
tweaking hifi with one aim in mind - to make the hi-fi system sound like
live
music.

Of course, no-one else here wants their HiFi to sound like they are
'there' then...

what a load of cobblers. full of vague garbage like "warm" "nothing there"
"PRAT" (whatever it is)


Pace, Rhythm And Timing (I think it's a 'Linnism' referring to the LP12??) -
means ****-all, like most 'hifi terminology'......


and plenty of SS digs with no evidence to back them.

and this 'multiple instruments in different places' crapola... your
EARS are effectively point recording sources, with their own acoustics...
if you're trying to reproduce that, try a pair of headphones,


Headphones? - Just done that on a pair of DM2As with my cheapychinky (40W
EL34s) maxxed out and I feel 'unwell' right now..... :-)

(Björk - Telegram)

(Note to Fleetie - You need bigger bass drivers or a sub, not a bigger
amp....)

what a load of cobblers. full of vague garbage like "warm" "nothing
there" "PRAT" (whatever it is)

Read it again - 'Warm' and 'PRAT' is exactly what I'm calling delusional. I
don't think "nothing added" is delusional. I'm talking of taking away garbage
in the sound, not adding to it.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Andy Evans wrote:

what a load of cobblers. full of vague garbage like "warm" "nothing
there" "PRAT" (whatever it is)

Read it again - 'Warm' and 'PRAT' is exactly what I'm calling delusional. I
don't think "nothing added" is delusional. I'm talking of taking away garbage
in the sound, not adding to it.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

Andy,

Could you format your quoted replies in a better way? You tend to
snip out the name of the poster whose post you are replying to.

Cheers.

Andy Evans wrote:
what a load of cobblers. full of vague garbage like "warm" "nothing
there" "PRAT" (whatever it is)

Read it again - 'Warm' and 'PRAT' is exactly what I'm calling delusional.

Sorry, yes. however, you make reference to (as good qualities in your
system)

'less obvious' (what is? why? is that good for some reason?)
'spookily exact' (meaning what exactly?)
'boring' (meaningless)
'sounded tiny' (again, huh?)
'a lot of nothing' (cant all systems reproduce this 100% perfectly, if
you switch them off?)

and then you say 'no warmth, bloom, prat, or bass slam' which, if you
claim are meaningless, you cant claim you dont have.

oh, and whats 'grunge'? perhaps you should stop playing nirvana whilst
trying to get that 'classical jazz' sound out of your system?

In reply to Ian: I don't know any alternative to using descriptive language
when describing sound in words, any more than wine tasters can't do better than
'a hint of blackberry and elderflower' when describing wine. It's one of those
things we're stuck with, faute de mieux.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.