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uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi) (uk.rec.audio) Discussion and exchange of hi-fi audio equipment.

Is Hi-Fi delusional?



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old October 22nd 04, 02:24 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce
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Posts: 1,412
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

On 22 Oct 2004 14:13:12 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

From a man who will not / can not even measure the performance of his
own design

Let me repeat for the nth time where n is a large number that I have nothing
against engineering whatsoever, and I go out of my way to have my amps measured
on scopes and distortion meters.

As for "up-to-date" and valve technology

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Check posts on audio Asylum.

I presume that means that ECC83s, 12AT7s, EL43s and the like are
not to be found in your designs?

Correct. I've already given a list of valves that sound better. If you want
references:
a) Valve Amplifiers, Ed. 3 Morgan Jones
b)
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...hlight=6sn7+th
orsten&r=&session
c) http://www.geocities.com/la1zka/hifi/distortion.html
d) http://www.enteract.com/~joepage/tubelist.htm
http://users.rcn.com/joepage

I don't want references, what do you use? When were they invented and
how did you decide on the right ones to use?

And of course transformers no longer
have hysteresis losses and non-linearities?
And ss amps still use elecrolytics in the sugnal path.

My ss amp has none. And of course, in relative terms, the effects of
an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to those of a
transformer.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #2 (permalink)  
Old October 22nd 04, 03:06 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Andy Evans
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Posts: 759
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

the effects of an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to those of a
transformer.

As a coupling cap? Don't make me laugh.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old October 22nd 04, 05:09 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Mike Gilmour
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Posts: 620
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
the effects of an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to those
of a
transformer.

As a coupling cap? Don't make me laugh.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.


CJ think otherwise, no electolytics used in power supply, certainly not as
a coupling cap or cathode bypass (or decoupling for that matter) IMO thats
why CJ amps and pre's are known universally to sound very good (Again, you
pay for quality).

Mike

I once tried electrolytics as CC ...never again.


  #6 (permalink)  
Old October 22nd 04, 05:33 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Andy Evans
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Posts: 759
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

CJ think otherwise, no electolytics used in power supply, certainly not as
a coupling cap or cathode bypass (or decoupling for that matter) IMO thats
why CJ amps and pre's are known universally to sound very good

Hello Mike - yes indeed. I use the same - all polypropylene, no electrolytics.
CJ use polystyrene in the signal path, I prefer teflon. Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
  #7 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 04, 08:16 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
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Posts: 3,051
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

In article , Mike Gilmour
wrote:

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
the effects of an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to
those of a transformer.

As a coupling cap? Don't make me laugh.

=== Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.


CJ think otherwise,


No doubt. :-) Many people have such views.


no electolytics used in power supply, certainly not as a coupling cap or
cathode bypass (or decoupling for that matter) IMO thats why CJ amps and
pre's are known universally to sound very good (Again, you pay for
quality).


I once tried electrolytics as CC ...never again.


Well, I've tried electrolytics on a number of occasions, and also tried non
electrolytics in the same designs. In many cases when I tried comparisons
on people they showed no signs of noticing any difference. Nor did the
measured results show much in the way of nonlinearities to worry about. I
have also encountered electrolytics I would not use. Mind you, I've also
encountered non-electrolytics I would not use.

My experience leads me to feel that mantra's like "electrolytics bad,
non-electrolytics good" are somewhat unreliable generalisations.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #8 (permalink)  
Old October 22nd 04, 04:14 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
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Posts: 3,051
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

In article , Andy Evans
wrote:
the effects of an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to
those of a transformer.


As a coupling cap? Don't make me laugh.


Erm... you seem to have snipped a part of what Don said that I think is
relevant here. The original sequence went:

From: Don Pearce
Subject: Is Hi-Fi delusional?
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:20
Newsgroups: uk.rec.audio

And of course transformers no longer
have hysteresis losses and non-linearities?
And ss amps still use elecrolytics in the sugnal path.

My ss amp has none. And of course, in relative terms, the effects of
an electrolytic cap are absolutely minute compared to those of a
transformer.


i.e. I understood that Don and yourself were arguing about the
*nonlinearity* of transformers and electrolystic caps. Presumably in their
normal and appropriate conditions of use. (I put the above back in as I
think that simply quoting the sweeping term "effects" may cloud the issue
and not represent the original comment about nonlinearity.)

If so, my understanding is that the nonlinearities introduced by many of
the signal transformers used for audio power output coupling may be much
greater than the nonlinearities of electrolytics used as coupling caps.

IIRC This is the gist of the measurements of linearity I have seen,
when viewed in the relevant ways for the designs I've seen. Indeed, I've
just had a quick look at Morgan Jones and a reprint of the old Williamson
articles, and these seem to show quite high nonlinearities in the
transformers they describe.

FWIW I think there was an article in HFN a year or two ago where MC set out
to expose distortion in electrolytics, but to do so - even at very low
levels - had to subject the caps to conditions of use that were very
different to the normal situation in the amps I am familiar with.

Whether the above 'matters' is perhaps a different question[1]. But if you are
referring to 'nonlinearity' and mean by that what engineers normally mean,
the above is my understanding of the situation.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] I am not automatically 'hostile' to transformers in the audio chain.
After all, I do prefer Quad ESLs to conventional speakers. ;-

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #9 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 04, 09:31 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Andy Evans
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Posts: 759
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

I understood that Don and yourself were arguing about the *nonlinearity* of
transformers and electrolystic caps.

I was referring to the sound. Designs like the PP Amity (Lynn Ohlsen) use audio
transformers between stages in preference to even the best capacitors - I think
he'd throw up at the idea of using an electrolytic as a coupling cap.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
  #10 (permalink)  
Old October 23rd 04, 03:03 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Is Hi-Fi delusional?

In article , Andy Evans
wrote:
I understood that Don and yourself were arguing about the
*nonlinearity* of transformers and electrolystic caps.


I was referring to the sound. Designs like the PP Amity (Lynn Ohlsen)
use audio transformers between stages in preference to even the best
capacitors - I think he'd throw up at the idea of using an electrolytic
as a coupling cap.


Well, as you may have noticed, various people have all kinds of
(contradictory) ideas and beliefs. :-)

Does the above mean that you regard nonlinearity in components as
irrelevant?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
 




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