November 11th 04, 12:38 PM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
"The EggKing" wrote in message
So if we should be buying Super-Tweeters if we want to properly
listen to our SACD systems (I don't have one) then what do we need to
get the air moving at 200KHz?
super super tweeters.
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November 11th 04, 08:42 PM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
Jim Lesurf wrote:
Above about 50kHz the main output from SACD will be the 'hash' from the 1
bit noise shaping scheme. I don't think Philips really want us to hear
that...
I'd be interested to know how they'd force us to hear it even if they
wanted to 
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November 11th 04, 05:59 AM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
A while back I made a reference to a woolly memory of something I had
read in HFW to do with Tim de P's views on bitrates and their vinyl
equivalents and said I would post a reference to it, if it ever appeared.
Well it's popped up out of the blue and is, of course, nothing like I
remembered it.
It's on 2 pages of the April 2004 edition:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article01.jpg
plus the top left paragraph he
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article02.jpg
The 'bitrates' are nothing to do with vinyl it seems - simply Tim De
P's idea of a minimum requirements for digital to come even close.
so Tim de P reckons that digital should be 24/400, eh?
Most people can't hear above 20kHz, and 400kHz would allow signals with
frequency content of up to 200kHz be reproduced perfectly. A bit of a
waste, isn't it? Though 200kHz would better capture the harmonics of a
square/triangle wave.
Make yer mind up - a bit of a waste or not a bit of a waste?
24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty
loud!
Now, having said all this, I still have another memory that there are
some pretty impressive figures somewhere that compare vinyl 'information
flow' very favourably with digital bitrates, but I've no idea where from
and have no intention of trying to find out. - I don't need to,
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as well
(cuts off at 16kHz?).
Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?
You're asking me?
I *know* there's more detail in vinyl played on decent equipment. I can
prove that to myself anytime I feel the need with a number of CD/LP
pairings.
I was going to say that the extra "detail" is a result of "induced 2nd
order harmonic distortion" but on second thought ...
No, do go on - I might not read/believe all the ******** in the comix, but I
take absolutely *everything* I read in this group as Gospel, despite the
efforts made by one or two prolific posters here to make themselves look a
little less than 100% credible from time to time.....
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November 12th 04, 12:58 AM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
Keith G wrote:
"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
so Tim de P reckons that digital should be 24/400, eh?
Most people can't hear above 20kHz, and 400kHz would allow signals with
frequency content of up to 200kHz be reproduced perfectly. A bit of a
waste, isn't it? Though 200kHz would better capture the harmonics of a
square/triangle wave.
Make yer mind up - a bit of a waste or not a bit of a waste?
from a practical point of view, it would be a waste as most people can't
hear frequencies that high. From a theoretical point of view, it would
allow the recreation of a better square wave with less ripple.
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as well
(cuts off at 16kHz?).
Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?
You're asking me?
I was hoping for other people to comment on that question.
I *know* there's more detail in vinyl played on decent equipment. I can
prove that to myself anytime I feel the need with a number of CD/LP
pairings.
I was going to say that the extra "detail" is a result of "induced 2nd
order harmonic distortion" but on second thought ...
No, do go on - I might not read/believe all the ******** in the comix, but I
take absolutely *everything* I read in this group as Gospel, despite the
efforts made by one or two prolific posters here to make themselves look a
little less than 100% credible from time to time.....
Nah, that was my **** poor attempt at a bit of a gee up. That quote
"induced 2nd order harmonic distortion" isn't even original, I'm sure
someone else in the NG used it before.
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November 12th 04, 01:29 AM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
"Tat Chan" wrote
Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?
You're asking me?
I was hoping for other people to comment on that question.
And none did??
No, do go on - I might not read/believe all the ******** in the comix,
but I take absolutely *everything* I read in this group as Gospel,
despite the efforts made by one or two prolific posters here to make
themselves look a little less than 100% credible from time to time.....
Nah, that was my **** poor attempt at a bit of a gee up. That quote
"induced 2nd order harmonic distortion" isn't even original, I'm sure
someone else in the NG used it before.
Probably, but don't let little setbacks like this put you off..... ;-)
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November 11th 04, 06:13 AM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
Tat Chan wrote:
24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty loud!
Minor point, only if you start at 0dB
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well (cuts off at 16kHz?).
I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.
Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?
No argument that 2nd harmonics will poduce extra extension, but then
unlike CD, it CAN produce harmonics above 20k.
--
Nick
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November 11th 04, 09:55 AM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Tat Chan wrote:
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well (cuts off at 16kHz?).
I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.
But at what level, and with how much distortion? And at what point on the
LP?
Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct
of the mechanical replay system?
No argument that 2nd harmonics will poduce extra extension, but then
unlike CD, it CAN produce harmonics above 20k.
Indeed. But how much of them are due to distortion?
i.e. how well can you record and replay signals at, say, 40kHz via vinyl
LP? (As distinct from finding distortion products.)
Slainte,
Jim
--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
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November 11th 04, 05:07 PM
posted to uk.rec.audio
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Vinyl 'bitrates'
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:55:14 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Tat Chan wrote:
Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as
well (cuts off at 16kHz?).
I could show you a 20kHz sine from a test disk, if that helps.
But at what level, and with how much distortion? And at what point on the
LP?
Test discs are, as you obviously know, always cut with the HF on the
outer tracks, and generally at a standard modulation level of 1cm/sec,
some 26dB below peak level. I have the EMI TCS101 and TCS 102 test
discs, which certainly conform to this standard.
--
Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
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