On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:50:17 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

Still, it must be useful when he is working on valve power amps to be able
to hear it when the amp oscillates at 100 kHz. Perhaps that's why some
magazines like his designs so much... ;-

For some reason, 'bats' come to mind here. 8-]

Are you sure that isn't "comes to mind"? ;-)

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Although as John has pointed out, there is some work that shows that
'ultrasound' may have audible effects at times.

I read a fascinating article once about church organs with ultrasonic
pipes in them. Apparently the audience can eb affected emotionally
despite being unbale to actually hear the sound.

In article ,
Ian Molton wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Although as John has pointed out, there is some work that shows that
'ultrasound' may have audible effects at times.

I read a fascinating article once about church organs with ultrasonic
pipes in them. Apparently the audience can eb affected emotionally
despite being unbale to actually hear the sound.

This is taking us back to Oohashi... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

A while back I made a reference to a woolly memory of something I had
read in HFW to do with Tim de P's views on bitrates and their vinyl
equivalents and said I would post a reference to it, if it ever appeared.
Well it's popped up out of the blue and is, of course, nothing like I
remembered it.

It's on 2 pages of the April 2004 edition:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article01.jpg

plus the top left paragraph he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../article02.jpg


The 'bitrates' are nothing to do with vinyl it seems - simply Tim De
P's idea of a minimum requirements for digital to come even close.


so Tim de P reckons that digital should be 24/400, eh?
Most people can't hear above 20kHz, and 400kHz would allow signals with
frequency content of up to 200kHz be reproduced perfectly. A bit of a
waste, isn't it? Though 200kHz would better capture the harmonics of a
square/triangle wave.

**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave. Such a feat
is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.


24-bit resolution would imply a dynamic range of 144dB. That's pretty
loud!


Now, having said all this, I still have another memory that there are
some pretty impressive figures somewhere that compare vinyl 'information
flow' very favourably with digital bitrates, but I've no idea where from
and have no intention of trying to find out. - I don't need to,


Vinyl only has (at best) 70 - 78 dB of dynamic range, which equates to
12 - 13 bits resolution, and I am sure vinyl is bandwidth limited as well
(cuts off at 16kHz?).

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz. The mighty
Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz. The square wave performance of this
very fine cartridge is exemplary.


Isn't the extra "frequency content" associated with vinyl a byproduct of
the mechanical replay system?

**In poor systems, yes. In good systems, no.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Tat Chan" wrote in message

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

Not very loud, not very clean and not for very many playings.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.

If you call what it does *operating*.

The square wave performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

Irrelevant, since nobody can hear the difference between an 8 KHz square
wave and an 8 KHz sine wave.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Tat Chan" wrote in message

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

Not very loud, not very clean and not for very many playings.

**Non sequitur.


The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.

If you call what it does *operating*.

**Non sequitur.


The square wave performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

Irrelevant, since nobody can hear the difference between an 8 KHz square
wave and an 8 KHz sine wave.

**Is that so? Are you familiar with the term: 'Power under the curve'?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message



**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave.

Well, it would have the fundamental and third harmonic so the resulting
wave would have plenty of ripple.


Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

Probably can, but what sort of musical instrument produces square waves?
And ... what sort of loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave? I think
the Quad ESLs can.



**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

surely you mean "a good analogue recording transcribed to vinyl"?
I mentioned before that I was under the impression that vinyl cutters
have trouble etching high frequencies onto the vinyl.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

that is the performance of the cartridge, not the LP

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:21:21 +1100, Tat Chan
wrote:


"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message



**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave.

Well, it would have the fundamental and third harmonic so the resulting
wave would have plenty of ripple.

And it'll look a damn sight better than a 5kHz square wave off vinyl,
which will also only contain third harmonic, and maybe a trace of
fifth.

Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system.

Utter bull****. Have you *ever* seen a 5kHz square wave off vinyl? It
doesn't matter that the cartridge *could* reproduce it, you'll never
cut it into the vinyl.

Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

Probably can, but what sort of musical instrument produces square waves?
And ... what sort of loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave? I think
the Quad ESLs can.

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

Name one. Since you can't, stop bull****ting.

surely you mean "a good analogue recording transcribed to vinyl"?
I mentioned before that I was under the impression that vinyl cutters
have trouble etching high frequencies onto the vinyl.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

that is the performance of the cartridge, not the LP

Exactly.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message



**16/44 digital can't even reproduce a decent 5kHz square wave.

Well, it would have the fundamental and third harmonic so the resulting
wave would have plenty of ripple.

**I'll give you a hint: It looks nothing like a square wave.



Such a
feat is a doddle for a good vinyl system. Do you think you can hear the
difference between a 5kHz square wave and a 5kHz sine wave? Hint: You
probably can.

Probably can, but what sort of musical instrument produces square waves?

**None. But that is not the point. Many instruments can produce fast leading
edges. Cymbals, for instance.

And ... what sort of loudspeakers can reproduce a square wave? I think the
Quad ESLs can.

**The old Duntech range was designed to reproduce step waveforms with
startling accuracy.




**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

surely you mean "a good analogue recording transcribed to vinyl"?
I mentioned before that I was under the impression that vinyl cutters have
trouble etching high frequencies onto the vinyl.

**Then you'd be wrong. There is no reason why *any* waveform cannot be
coaxed onto a vinyl disk. It is just a matter of how much trouble one is
willing to go to. Don't forget: A square wave, on a vinyl recording
(physically) looks like a triangle wave. BTW: I have a CBS test disk with
square waves recorded on it. They appear on a 'scope with far higher
fidelity (provided I use a high quality turntable) than any 16/44 digital
system.


The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave
performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

that is the performance of the cartridge, not the LP

**It is the thereorectical performance of the SYSTEM. Rarely, if ever,
achieved in practice.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:05:30 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Tat Chan" wrote in message

**Nope. In fact, a good vinyl recording can go well past 50kHz.

In *fact*, almost all commercial vinyl is rolled off above 15kHz or
so. The only vinyl you'll find with higher frequencies is the old
half-speed mastered stuff from MFSL, and the quadraphonic discs which
used a 30kHz subcarrier, 20dB below normal level - and which didn't
survive many playings.

Not very loud, not very clean and not for very many playings.

The mighty Dynavector 10D-II can operate to 60kHz.
The square wave performance of this very fine cartridge is exemplary.

Irrelevant, since there's nothing above 20kHz on vinyl for it to
reproduce.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering