"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:18:51 -0000, "JustMe" wrote:

Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do:
sound
better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no bearing on
*my*
choice.

What about the view that some of us don't really want the *hi fi* to
'sound' of anything - just the music? :-)

Well in your case I guess you'd build an amp to suit your own taste ;o)

In my case, I'll listen to a few and pick the one that I like the most -
much like everyone else.

Actually, just like hardly anyone else....................

Yup, fair point.

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
[clip]

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out of
the music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

The compression applied by radio stations, etc, tends to be various forms
of 'gain riding' where the gain is altered as the music plays - sometimes
also altering the frequency response. However the compression applied by
an
amp going into clipping would not behave like this as it would distort
the
waveforms and introduce extra components, not just alter the gain. Hence
you can expect the two forms of 'compression' to not sound the same.

I appreciate that there are different types of compression. I was
referring
specifically to the dynamic range compression employed by broadcasters,
separate to other steps along the transmission line or in the reproduction
equipment of the listener. It is this to which I was specifically
objecting.



Unfortunately radio stations especially commercial ILR's are in strong
competition as to the way their station 'sounds'. In many ways this is not
dissimilar to the music industries drive for your output to be 'louder' than
your rivals. Its a vicious circle where values held by the serious listener
are at odds with commercial pressures and I fear common sense. (Its a mad
mad mad world)
You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf
I'm at present looking into output processors for a new FM radio
station..and they all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Mike

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
[clip]

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many
radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out
of
the music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

The compression applied by radio stations, etc, tends to be various
forms
of 'gain riding' where the gain is altered as the music plays -
sometimes
also altering the frequency response. However the compression applied
by
an
amp going into clipping would not behave like this as it would distort
the
waveforms and introduce extra components, not just alter the gain.
Hence
you can expect the two forms of 'compression' to not sound the same.

I appreciate that there are different types of compression. I was
referring
specifically to the dynamic range compression employed by broadcasters,
separate to other steps along the transmission line or in the
reproduction
equipment of the listener. It is this to which I was specifically
objecting.



Unfortunately radio stations especially commercial ILR's are in strong
competition as to the way their station 'sounds'. In many ways this is
not
dissimilar to the music industries drive for your output to be 'louder'
than
your rivals. Its a vicious circle where values held by the serious
listener
are at odds with commercial pressures and I fear common sense. (Its a mad
mad mad world)

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many ways.
However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard. After all,
they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf
I'm at present looking into output processors for a new FM radio
station..and they all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters are
involved in.
However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the radio, as well as
pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact that such influences
are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me more, as this is the music
that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the radio).

Mike

In article , JustMe
wrote:

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many
ways. However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard.
After all, they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

Alas, they do often feel driven to behave as if they *do* have to compete.
This is the result of being made to feel defensive about th license fee by
politicians who demand that the BBC should show it is 'popular'.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf I'm at present
looking into output processors for a new FM radio station..and they
all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters
are involved in. However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the
radio, as well as pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact
that such influences are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me
more, as this is the music that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the
radio).

In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , JustMe
wrote:

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many
ways. However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard.
After all, they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

Alas, they do often feel driven to behave as if they *do* have to compete.
This is the result of being made to feel defensive about th license fee by
politicians who demand that the BBC should show it is 'popular'.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf I'm at present
looking into output processors for a new FM radio station..and they
all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters
are involved in. However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the
radio, as well as pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact
that such influences are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me
more, as this is the music that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the
radio).

In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Was that ALL of 'Bolero' on Classic FM? then you are indeed fortunate ;-)

Mike

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...


Classic FM is *unlistenable* on anything other than a car radio or portable
'tranny' IMO....

(Who TF could settle down to listening to it on a 'serious setup' in the
evening and put up with all those bloody adverts, never mind the sound
quality**...???)


I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.


Agreed, see above comments.


**Ignore me - due to laziness and one or two other (minor) practical
considerations, I'm presently listening to crappy DAB on my main system and
I'm a bit touchy about the whole topic of radio......

(DAB is also fine for cars and portables, but it is *not* proper 'radio' -
not by a country mile...!!!)

bell peppers
garlic salt, pepper, etc.
3 cups chicken stock
2 sticks butter
3 tablespoons oil

First stuff the heads, or make the patties (see index)
then fry or bake.
Set aside to drain on paper towels.
Make a roux with butter, oil and flour,
brown vegetables in the roux, then add chicken stock and
allow to simmer for 20 minutes.
Add the patties or stuffed heads, and some loose crawfish,
lobster, long piglet, or what have you.
Cook on low for 15 minutes, then allow it to set for at least
15 minutes more.
Serve over steamed rice; this dish is very impressive!



Stuffed Cabbage Rolls

Babies really can be found under a cabbage leaf -
or one can arrange for ground beef to be found there instead.

8 large cabbage leaves
1 lb. lean ground newborn human filets, or ground chuck
Onions
peppers
celery
garlic
soy sauce
salt pepper, etc
Olive oil
breadcrumbs
Tomato Gravy (see index)

Boil the cabbage leaves for 2 minutes to soften.
In skillet, brown the meat in a little olive oil,
then add onions, peppers, and celery (all chopped finely)
and season well.
Place in a large bowl and cool.
Add seasoned breadcrumbs and a little of the tomato gravy,
enough to make the mixture pliable.
Divide the stuffing among the cabbage leaves then roll.
Place seam down in a baking pan.
Ladle tomato gravy on top,
and bake at 325° for 30 - 45 minutes.



Umbilical Cordon Bleu

Nothing is so beautiful as the bond between mother and child,
so why not consume it?
Children or chicken breasts will work wonderfully also.

4 whole umbilical chords (or baby breasts, or chicken breasts)
4 thin slices of smoked ham, and Gruyere cheese
Flour
eggwash (milk and eggs)
seasoned bread crumbs
1 onion
minced
salt
pepper
butter
olive oil

Pound the breasts flat (parboil first if using umbilical
co

In article , JustMe
wrote:
Only to *your* ears..............

Indeed - this is, by any sensible measure, what a hifi should do:
sound better to *my* ears. Whether *you* like it or not has no
bearing on *my* choice.

What about the view that some of us don't really want the *hi fi* to
'sound' of anything - just the music? :-)

Well in your case I guess you'd build an amp to suit your own taste ;o)

Yes. :-)

[snip]

Indeed. Then "straight-line" is irrelevant in this context, as attending
a live performance has less to do with sound-quality and more to do with
the experience and atmosphere of the occassion.

That being the case, home listening is not about straight-line at all,
as the only way one can enjoy a live event, is to attend it. Home music
reproduction is something different and shouldn't try to be something
that it isn't.

Yet the curious thing is that when I do something like listen to recordings
or broadcasts on BBCR3 from halls or studios I've sat and listened in, the
results often sound to me to be pretty convincing replicas of what I recall
hearing in the hall. The main limit being that the soundfield is more
limited as I'm only using stereo. Can't say if this is "straight line" or
not, but it can sound fairly convincing to me.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html