"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"JustMe" wrote in message
...
[clip]

OTOH, plenty of amps will *add* what sounds like extra 'depth' and
'punch', but is really just IMD and clipping. Bizarrely, a reduced
dynamic range often sounds more 'dynamic'. All radio station sound
engineers are well aware of this trick.

I have never found the dynamic range compression employed by many
radio
stations to do anything more than suck the life, soul and energy out
of
the music being transmitted - it sounds ****.

The compression applied by radio stations, etc, tends to be various
forms
of 'gain riding' where the gain is altered as the music plays -
sometimes
also altering the frequency response. However the compression applied
by
an
amp going into clipping would not behave like this as it would distort
the
waveforms and introduce extra components, not just alter the gain.
Hence
you can expect the two forms of 'compression' to not sound the same.

I appreciate that there are different types of compression. I was
referring
specifically to the dynamic range compression employed by broadcasters,
separate to other steps along the transmission line or in the
reproduction
equipment of the listener. It is this to which I was specifically
objecting.



Unfortunately radio stations especially commercial ILR's are in strong
competition as to the way their station 'sounds'. In many ways this is
not
dissimilar to the music industries drive for your output to be 'louder'
than
your rivals. Its a vicious circle where values held by the serious
listener
are at odds with commercial pressures and I fear common sense. (Its a mad
mad mad world)

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many ways.
However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard. After all,
they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf
I'm at present looking into output processors for a new FM radio
station..and they all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters are
involved in.
However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the radio, as well as
pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact that such influences
are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me more, as this is the music
that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the radio).

Mike

In article , JustMe
wrote:

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many
ways. However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard.
After all, they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

Alas, they do often feel driven to behave as if they *do* have to compete.
This is the result of being made to feel defensive about th license fee by
politicians who demand that the BBC should show it is 'popular'.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf I'm at present
looking into output processors for a new FM radio station..and they
all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters
are involved in. However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the
radio, as well as pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact
that such influences are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me
more, as this is the music that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the
radio).

In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , JustMe
wrote:

Agreed - however I find British commercial radio to be pap in so many
ways. However the Beeb could take a moral high ground in this regard.
After all, they're not commercial (as if!) and so don't need to compete.

Alas, they do often feel driven to behave as if they *do* have to compete.
This is the result of being made to feel defensive about th license fee by
politicians who demand that the BBC should show it is 'popular'.

You may find this interesting
http://www.masterdigital.com/24bit/images/rdioproc.pdf I'm at present
looking into output processors for a new FM radio station..and they
all claim to be the best but I wonder...... (-:

Yes, it makes it clear just what a juggling act commercial broadcasters
are involved in. However we've all heard music sound outstanding on the
radio, as well as pap. A lot of the papness is down to choice. The fact
that such influences are more defined in pop broadcasting irritates me
more, as this is the music that I mostly enjoy (although rarely on the
radio).

In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Was that ALL of 'Bolero' on Classic FM? then you are indeed fortunate ;-)

Mike

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , JustMe
wrote:
[Clip]

.. Not as bad as Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Was that ALL of 'Bolero' on Classic FM? then you are indeed fortunate ;-)

Mike


http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexd...ceng.htmlEarly information, though content with openly gain riding eh??Mike

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article ,
JustMe
wrote:
[Clip]

. Not as bad as Classic FM, though...

I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is
a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the
same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Was that ALL of 'Bolero' on Classic FM? then you are indeed fortunate ;-)

Mike


http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexd...ceng.htmlEarly
information, though content with openly gain riding eh??Mike

Ooops
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexd...lassiceng.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression, more
so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad as
Classic FM, though...


Classic FM is *unlistenable* on anything other than a car radio or portable
'tranny' IMO....

(Who TF could settle down to listening to it on a 'serious setup' in the
evening and put up with all those bloody adverts, never mind the sound
quality**...???)


I have heard 'Bolero' on Classic FM on more than one occasion and it is a
remarkable experience. Although it starts off with solo instruments and
small groupings playing softly, and grows to the entire orchesta going
full
tilt, the sound level via Classic FM seems to remain pretty much the same
throughout. Thus rather defeating the effect the composer desired! Once
you
notice this, the effect is almost comical as the the attempts of the
orchestra to become louder are casually defeated by the automatic gain
adjustments.


Agreed, see above comments.


**Ignore me - due to laziness and one or two other (minor) practical
considerations, I'm presently listening to crappy DAB on my main system and
I'm a bit touchy about the whole topic of radio......

(DAB is also fine for cars and portables, but it is *not* proper 'radio' -
not by a country mile...!!!)

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


In general, I enjoy the output of BBCR3. But they do use compression,
more so during the day as they assume people may wish this. Not as bad
as Classic FM, though...


Classic FM is *unlistenable* on anything other than a car radio or
portable 'tranny' IMO....

(Who TF could settle down to listening to it on a 'serious setup' in the
evening and put up with all those bloody adverts, never mind the sound
quality**...???)

In general, I'd agree. However a few years ago they did have one evening
program that broadcast 'vintage voices'. i.e. classical songs, etc, from
the 78rpm and acoustic era. This broadcast items that were rarely heard
elsewhere. I found this programme fascinating listening as it gave me a
chance to hear things I'd never encountered before. Alas, after a while
they stopped the programme. I assume it was not 'popular' enough... :-/

**Ignore me - due to laziness and one or two other (minor) practical
considerations, I'm presently listening to crappy DAB on my main system
and I'm a bit touchy about the whole topic of radio......

(DAB is also fine for cars and portables, but it is *not* proper 'radio'
- not by a country mile...!!!)

So far I have carefully avoided listening to DAB.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


In general, I'd agree. However a few years ago they did have one evening
program that broadcast 'vintage voices'. i.e. classical songs, etc, from
the 78rpm and acoustic era. This broadcast items that were rarely heard
elsewhere. I found this programme fascinating listening as it gave me a
chance to hear things I'd never encountered before. Alas, after a while
they stopped the programme. I assume it was not 'popular' enough... :-/


Shame.

The 'damage' done to radio broadcasts these days is distressing to say the
least - Jove's way of telling you that you have lived too long, if you ask
me....


So far I have carefully avoided listening to DAB.


Well done - you have missed *nothing*, believe me!!

;-)

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
So far I have carefully avoided listening to DAB.

Well done - you have missed *nothing*, believe me!!

You get perfect reception on an FM portable radio around the house, do you?
Or rely on AM and prefer the quality of that?

DAB has its uses. If and when it is the only radio transmission system
you'd be right to be worried if in its present implematation.

--
*Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Jim Lesurf
writes
So far I have carefully avoided listening to DAB.

Slainte,

Jim


Very wise. I've heard a few DAB tuners, and I'm not impressed so far.
Although it may not be the fault of DAB, but of pushing too many
channels in the radio space. R3 certainly sounds the best, but as I
normally only listen to R3 to hear the excellent 'Late Junction', and
I've not heard that on DAB I can't compare. Speech on R4 is noticeably
poorer than on FM, and I don't listen to R1 or R2.

DAB certainly makes sense for car audio though, (but then again, so does
Minidisc, and that never really caught on).
--
Chris Morriss