"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Phildo wrote:
Of course one has to have some talent, geting through a total of 8 + 4
+ 4 years in becoming a tonemeister will weed many non talented out,
dont't you think?

Being good at a subject and managing to get a degree in it is no measure
of competence for the job. I have known engineers with no
qualifications but lots of experience who could knock spots off
Tonmeister graduates and tonmeister graduates who couldn't mix concrete.

Absolutely. Being a musician - ie being capable of playing a musical
instrument to a high standard - just ain't necessary to balance music. And
it's not something that anyone can learn. So a bit like being a musician
in that respect - you need a particular talent.

And yet, it is surprising how many balance engineers, can play an instrument
to a high standard. At the companies where I have worked, one has always
been
expected to be able to mark up a full score, pre session, and edit from one,
post session. I have yet to come across a classical engineer who cannot do
this.

As regards pop music. I have known many tape ops/assistant engineers
who could play guitar, bs gtr, and drums as well as or better than many of
the artists we were recording.

Of course to balance music you have to be able to identify the various
parts of the mix. Reading music - at least to lead sheet level - is also
useful.

Probably essential.
Would you drive in a rally without a map? :-)

Iain

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
Absolutely. Being a musician - ie being capable of playing a musical
instrument to a high standard - just ain't necessary to balance music.
And it's not something that anyone can learn. So a bit like being a
musician in that respect - you need a particular talent.

And yet, it is surprising how many balance engineers, can play an
instrument to a high standard. At the companies where I have worked,
one has always been expected to be able to mark up a full score, pre
session, and edit from one, post session. I have yet to come across a
classical engineer who cannot do this.

I'm afraid my knowledge of such people is more limited being TV and
therefore somewhat lighter music based. [Thinks] Of the half dozen or so
mixers I know or knew who specialised in the classical side I'd say it was
about 50/50 as regards playing an instrument well. Although one of the
best plays piano, organ and sings to a pro standard. And is equally at
home with lighter music.

As regards pop music. I have known many tape ops/assistant engineers
who could play guitar, bs gtr, and drums as well as or better than many
of the artists we were recording.

Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people who
might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things had gone
according to plan.
Although my next assistant on a drama shoot is a Bay City Roller...

Of course to balance music you have to be able to identify the various
parts of the mix. Reading music - at least to lead sheet level - is
also useful.

Probably essential. Would you drive in a rally without a map? :-)

One mixer famous for the excellent results he got on early Top of the Pops
- where it really *was* live, complete with orchestra and arrangements
such to copy the actual record, played the records a few times before the
studio day, and more or less memorised them.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people who
might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things had gone
according to plan.

Or people who are good musicians but who specifically would NOT want
a career as a professional musician...

- Logan

Phildo wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...

Phildo wrote:

Your better bet is to work your way up. A degree can only teach you the
theory and experience means far more.


In that case, you're quite right. In my experience of degrees they include
a vocational element, and the fact (your fact - I haven't checked) that
the Tonmeister degrees offer no practical grounding or on-site placements
renders them of limited use.


I never said any such thing. Please take your words out of my mouth as I
find them most distasteful.


You said "A degree can only teach you the theory". Were you including
the Tonmeister degrees in that statement?




Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?


The language. You will be faced with a barrage of technical terms.


Not a reason for not doing it. I know many students whose first language
isn't English do very well with technical subjects.


And I have known several who found it a real barrier. The course is
difficult enough without having to translate passages you do not understand.
A thorough grasp of the language the course is taught in at that level is
essential.

Er, yes. Although Cambridge recently awarded a first to an 'illiterate'
student.



In the UK we finish school at 16 with what used to be called O levels but
are now called GCSEs. We have the option to then go to a 6th form college
to do A-levels which are more advanced. A levels today are about the
equivalent difficulty of what O levels where when I was at school as they
have REALLY dumbed down the exams to try to show the failing education
system is actually improving.

I'm not sure which subjects you are referring to, but your experience is
very different to mine. When were you at school? My experience is based on
doing them in the late 70s.


Last year I checked the current A level papers against my old O-level papers
from 1985 in maths, physics, music, French, chemistry, geography and English
(language and lit). The O-levels were harder by far in every case. My father
was a teacher and always moaned about how the exams were being dumbed down
when he heard the government crowing about the new levels of excellence they
had achieved so we decided to see for ourselves.


That's interesting. So the A level curriculum has slid beneath O level,
which leaves AS level at (say) (old) CSE 4?

Although they say AAB at Surrey you are more likely

looking at AAA or even a 4th A-level to get in.


Depends. Universities are well known for their curious entrance criteria.


I was being specific to Surrey and the Tonmeister degree course.


OK, I don't know about Surrey's admissions policy, and I defer to your
knowledge. My experience is that allowance is made for life skills and
so forth. If Surrey doesn't, then that's that.


Forget studying sound at anything but a basic level and get your skills
on the job. Qualifications don't really mean anything in this business.


For some people it's a chicken and egg situation. In my experience a
qualification helps get a job. It *doesn't* get you a job. But if sound
engineering doesn't involve an academic grounding, and there aren't any
courses with a vocational element, then I defer.


We are discussing sound engineering here or hadn't you noticed?



Yes, hence the reference.


Also, what sort of sound engineer do you want to be? Do you have any
particular discipline in mind?

One of the advantages of education - helps you decide.


Not really. You can do something at university then get out in the field and
discover you hate it. Much better to get some real world experience and work
out what you want to do before wasting your time.

I think we're going to have to agree to differ. Education is a part of
the 'real world', at least in my opinion.


I reckon a one-year basic sound engineering course such as the City & Guilds
182 followed by a few years of working in the industry would serve him far
better than a degree.

And on that, although I know nothing about sound engineering but based
on my knowledge of vocational qualifications, I would be inclined to
agree. Much as I hate the C&G approach to assessment.

Rob

"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

.... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

In article . com,
Tim Scott wrote:
"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

I personally get ****ed of with those who try and get sniffy about
definitions. Most of the talent and production types tend to talk about
sound engineers regardless of the job they do.

To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate all
sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix the
broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A Degree in Sound Engineering??

I find that the best engineers have one thing in common.
They play an instrument!!
kevin

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:45:25 GMT, justin wrote:


That may be true, but typically a 4 year, post secondary school
experience in a recording studio won't come even close to a 4 year
university drill. I'm talking university degree, not some SAE, Full
sail or whatever one year course student mill, offering "tonemeister"
certificate.

OP wanted information on audio ENGINEERING degree and you arrogantly
knocked him by implying he doesn't know the difference between audio
technician and a tonemeister.

Yes I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

That may mean the same thing where you're coming from but he can't GET
an Audio Engineering/Tonemeister job in Italian broadcasting or
production facility without university degree in music or applied
technology. Neither would you unless you had some major international
production credits.

Just to put the things in a perspective, in Italy and elsewhere
continental EU the difference is equivalent to the difference between a
nurse and a physician, a draft person and an architect or a sales
assistant and a marketing director. So is the knowledge, skill,
responsibility and competence level. Salary too, about 30-50%.

And since you are posting from the University of Berlin, give Deutche
Rundfunk a call and ask them for the job requirements. They invented
the term Tonemeister some 60 years ago.


j.

So the Tonmeister is the best degree. I understood this. Now I know
that there's in University of Surrey, of Berlin and Wien, searching on
the net. Do you know some other places?

Thank you ALL very much!!!


Gianluca

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:07:22 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article . com,
Tim Scott wrote:
"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

I personally get ****ed of with those who try and get sniffy about
definitions. Most of the talent and production types tend to talk about
sound engineers regardless of the job they do.

To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate all
sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix the
broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

Yes, that's why I would like an engineering degree, not a simple
technician course or to learn the job doing it with professionists.

Thanks!!!

Gianluca

In article ,
Someone Out In Space wrote:
Yes I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

I'm still unclear exactly what you mean. Do you wish to design, build and
or repair audio equipment, or 'merely' use it?

If you intend being what is commonly known as a sound engineer in the UK,
here's a list.

TV, radio, films, post production, recording studios (including location
recording for sale as CD) theatre and live music events. There are some
who work in more than one field, but most specialise. And within all of
those fields, there is even more specialisation. For example in TV,
different people might specialise in studio, outside broadcast (mainly
sports) and location recording (mainly drama) Documentaries are also a
specialised field.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.