Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm a guy from Italy who decided that sound engineer can be his
profession.
Now I wonder to know which are the best Universities which offers a
"sound engineering" or "audio engineering" degree. Here in Italy we
don't have anything like that in University, only some courses to
become a sort of "sound technician" who can work in recording studios,
or as a live sound technician, but not really an engineer. I'm looking
for the best I can find, no matter where it is, how long it takes :)
If any of you can give me some advices, or just tell me his
experiences, i don't know, anything that can help me, I will
appreciate that.

Thank you!

Gianluca


p.s. sorry for my non-perfect english



in the middle of a BSc in : Sound, Light and Live event technology at Derby
University here in the UK. course code hj39

its one of the few live sound and light degrees in this country.



Rob

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Rob Beech" wrote in message
...

"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
...
Hi, I'm a guy from Italy who decided that sound engineer can be his
profession.
Now I wonder to know which are the best Universities which offers a
"sound engineering" or "audio engineering" degree. Here in Italy we
don't have anything like that in University, only some courses to
become a sort of "sound technician" who can work in recording studios,
or as a live sound technician, but not really an engineer. I'm looking
for the best I can find, no matter where it is, how long it takes :)
If any of you can give me some advices, or just tell me his
experiences, i don't know, anything that can help me, I will
appreciate that.

Thank you!

Gianluca


p.s. sorry for my non-perfect english

Even a degree, or having completed a course at an American audio college
will not guarantee you a job, and few studios can offer proper formal
training
these days, so maybe an application to a broadcasting company might be the
best route.

Iain

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
Even a degree, or having completed a course at an American audio college
will not guarantee you a job, and few studios can offer proper formal
training these days, so maybe an application to a broadcasting company
might be the best route.

I know I'm an old fart, but the lack of general knowledge about the
techical basics of TV - including things other than sound - are surprising
from those with various 'media' degrees. I was taught those on a 3 month
residential course at the BBC training centre - let alone several years of
college.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
...

"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
. ..
Hi, I'm a guy from Italy who decided that sound engineer can be his
profession.
Now I wonder to know which are the best Universities which offers a
"sound engineering" or "audio engineering" degree. Here in Italy we
don't have anything like that in University, only some courses to
become a sort of "sound technician" who can work in recording studios,
or as a live sound technician, but not really an engineer. I'm looking
for the best I can find, no matter where it is, how long it takes :)
If any of you can give me some advices, or just tell me his
experiences, i don't know, anything that can help me, I will
appreciate that.

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/soundrec/php/tonmeister.php

He would be much better off trying to find a university in Italy that offers
the same course. Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there. There used to be a requirement to be a very capable musician as well
but I don't know if that is still in place. Used to be grade 5 on one
instrument and grade 8 on another, at least one of which had to be keyboard
based.

I think he hasn't thought this through properly anyway. Just deciding you
want to be a sound engineer is not good enough. You do need to have some
natural talent for the job. He's also obviously not clear on what the job
actually involves by his engineer and technician comments. Getting a degree
in sound will not make him an engineer by default and there are many more
things to take into consideration.

The more info he can give us the more we can help him.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:22:02 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/soundrec/php/tonmeister.php

He would be much better off trying to find a university in Italy that offers
the same course.

There's not :( Only some courses to become a "sound technician", but I
was looking for something higher, that let me a wider range of jobs
involved in sound recording, acoustic, and stuff like that.

Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?

There used to be a requirement to be a very capable musician as well
but I don't know if that is still in place. Used to be grade 5 on one
instrument and grade 8 on another, at least one of which had to be keyboard
based.

Well this is the biggest problem for me I think.

The site says: "The Tonmeister course is structured in such a way that
it assumes that all first-year students have a reasonable level of
musical performance ability, and good theoretical knowledge and
understanding of Mathematics, Music and Physics. Our entrance
requirements are therefore good A-level passes in those three subjects
(typically AAB), and ideally a pass at Grade 7 or 8 (ABRSM, Trinity or
Guildhall) in musical performance."

First of all I don't know what is an A-level in something. School
system here in Italy is really different.
Well, in September I'll get a degree in Aerospace Engineering here in
Italy, so I think I have the knowledge of Phisics and Maths, I just
don't know how to demonstrate it for English system.
Music. Well I can play guitar, bass and I'm learning piano, but by
private lessons, so I don't have any attestation about my music
knowledge. And where can I find what I'm supposed to know to have an
A-level in Music? And where and how can I demonstarate my knowledges?
This is the main problem for me now.

I think he hasn't thought this through properly anyway. Just deciding you
want to be a sound engineer is not good enough. You do need to have some
natural talent for the job. He's also obviously not clear on what the job
actually involves by his engineer and technician comments. Getting a degree
in sound will not make him an engineer by default and there are many more
things to take into consideration.

The more info he can give us the more we can help him.

Phildo

Thank you all!!!

Gianluca

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:22:02 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/soundrec/php/tonmeister.php

He would be much better off trying to find a university in Italy that
offers
the same course.

There's not :( Only some courses to become a "sound technician", but I
was looking for something higher, that let me a wider range of jobs
involved in sound recording, acoustic, and stuff like that.

Your better bet is to work your way up. A degree can only teach you the
theory and experience means far more.

Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?

The language. You will be faced with a barrage of technical terms.

There used to be a requirement to be a very capable musician as well
but I don't know if that is still in place. Used to be grade 5 on one
instrument and grade 8 on another, at least one of which had to be
keyboard
based.

Well this is the biggest problem for me I think.

The site says: "The Tonmeister course is structured in such a way that
it assumes that all first-year students have a reasonable level of
musical performance ability, and good theoretical knowledge and
understanding of Mathematics, Music and Physics. Our entrance
requirements are therefore good A-level passes in those three subjects
(typically AAB), and ideally a pass at Grade 7 or 8 (ABRSM, Trinity or
Guildhall) in musical performance."

First of all I don't know what is an A-level in something. School
system here in Italy is really different.

In the UK we finish school at 16 with what used to be called O levels but
are now called GCSEs. We have the option to then go to a 6th form college to
do A-levels which are more advanced. A levels today are about the equivalent
difficulty of what O levels where when I was at school as they have REALLY
dumbed down the exams to try to show the failing education system is
actually improving. Although they say AAB at Surrey you are more likely
looking at AAA or even a 4th A-level to get in.

Well, in September I'll get a degree in Aerospace Engineering here in
Italy, so I think I have the knowledge of Phisics and Maths, I just
don't know how to demonstrate it for English system.
Music. Well I can play guitar, bass and I'm learning piano, but by
private lessons, so I don't have any attestation about my music
knowledge. And where can I find what I'm supposed to know to have an
A-level in Music? And where and how can I demonstarate my knowledges?
This is the main problem for me now.

Grade 8 is a VERY high level of performance in an instrument and they
usually require a keyboard based instrument. It is a really tough course to
be able to get on to and until recently was the most over-subscribed course
in the UK with very few of the people applying actually getting in.

Forget studying sound at anything but a basic level and get your skills on
the job. Qualifications don't really mean anything in this business.

Also, what sort of sound engineer do you want to be? Do you have any
particular discipline in mind?

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

Phildo wrote:
"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 22:22:02 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:


http://www.surrey.ac.uk/soundrec/php/tonmeister.php

He would be much better off trying to find a university in Italy that
offers
the same course.

There's not :( Only some courses to become a "sound technician", but I
was looking for something higher, that let me a wider range of jobs
involved in sound recording, acoustic, and stuff like that.


Your better bet is to work your way up. A degree can only teach you the
theory and experience means far more.


In that case, you're quite right. In my experience of degrees they
include a vocational element, and the fact (your fact - I haven't
checked) that the Tonmeister degrees offer no practical grounding or
on-site placements renders them of limited use.


Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?


The language. You will be faced with a barrage of technical terms.

Not a reason for not doing it. I know many students whose first language
isn't English do very well with technical subjects.


There used to be a requirement to be a very capable musician as well
but I don't know if that is still in place. Used to be grade 5 on one
instrument and grade 8 on another, at least one of which had to be
keyboard
based.

Well this is the biggest problem for me I think.

The site says: "The Tonmeister course is structured in such a way that
it assumes that all first-year students have a reasonable level of
musical performance ability, and good theoretical knowledge and
understanding of Mathematics, Music and Physics. Our entrance
requirements are therefore good A-level passes in those three subjects
(typically AAB), and ideally a pass at Grade 7 or 8 (ABRSM, Trinity or
Guildhall) in musical performance."

First of all I don't know what is an A-level in something. School
system here in Italy is really different.


In the UK we finish school at 16 with what used to be called O levels but
are now called GCSEs. We have the option to then go to a 6th form college to
do A-levels which are more advanced. A levels today are about the equivalent
difficulty of what O levels where when I was at school as they have REALLY
dumbed down the exams to try to show the failing education system is
actually improving.

I'm not sure which subjects you are referring to, but your experience is
very different to mine. When were you at school? My experience is based
on doing them in the late 70s.

Although they say AAB at Surrey you are more likely
looking at AAA or even a 4th A-level to get in.

Depends. Universities are well known for their curious entrance criteria.


Well, in September I'll get a degree in Aerospace Engineering here in
Italy, so I think I have the knowledge of Phisics and Maths, I just
don't know how to demonstrate it for English system.
Music. Well I can play guitar, bass and I'm learning piano, but by
private lessons, so I don't have any attestation about my music
knowledge. And where can I find what I'm supposed to know to have an
A-level in Music? And where and how can I demonstarate my knowledges?
This is the main problem for me now.


Grade 8 is a VERY high level of performance in an instrument and they
usually require a keyboard based instrument. It is a really tough course to
be able to get on to and until recently was the most over-subscribed course
in the UK with very few of the people applying actually getting in.

Forget studying sound at anything but a basic level and get your skills on
the job. Qualifications don't really mean anything in this business.

For some people it's a chicken and egg situation. In my experience a
qualification helps get a job. It *doesn't* get you a job. But if sound
engineering doesn't involve an academic grounding, and there aren't any
courses with a vocational element, then I defer.

Also, what sort of sound engineer do you want to be? Do you have any
particular discipline in mind?

One of the advantages of education - helps you decide.

Rob

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"justin" wrote in message
...
In Europe you are not an Engineer without formal four year university
degree, regardles of the profession.

Ahem, complete and utter ********.

Of course one has to have some talent, geting through a total of 8 + 4
+ 4 years in becoming a tonemeister will weed many non talented out,
dont't you think?

Being good at a subject and managing to get a degree in it is no measure of
competence for the job. I have known engineers with no qualifications but
lots of experience who could knock spots off Tonmeister graduates and
tonmeister graduates who couldn't mix concrete.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Phildo wrote:
Your better bet is to work your way up. A degree can only teach you the
theory and experience means far more.


In that case, you're quite right. In my experience of degrees they include
a vocational element, and the fact (your fact - I haven't checked) that
the Tonmeister degrees offer no practical grounding or on-site placements
renders them of limited use.

I never said any such thing. Please take your words out of my mouth as I
find them most distasteful.


Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?


The language. You will be faced with a barrage of technical terms.

Not a reason for not doing it. I know many students whose first language
isn't English do very well with technical subjects.

And I have known several who found it a real barrier. The course is
difficult enough without having to translate passages you do not understand.
A thorough grasp of the language the course is taught in at that level is
essential.

In the UK we finish school at 16 with what used to be called O levels but
are now called GCSEs. We have the option to then go to a 6th form college
to do A-levels which are more advanced. A levels today are about the
equivalent difficulty of what O levels where when I was at school as they
have REALLY dumbed down the exams to try to show the failing education
system is actually improving.

I'm not sure which subjects you are referring to, but your experience is
very different to mine. When were you at school? My experience is based on
doing them in the late 70s.

Last year I checked the current A level papers against my old O-level papers
from 1985 in maths, physics, music, French, chemistry, geography and English
(language and lit). The O-levels were harder by far in every case. My father
was a teacher and always moaned about how the exams were being dumbed down
when he heard the government crowing about the new levels of excellence they
had achieved so we decided to see for ourselves.

Although they say AAB at Surrey you are more likely
looking at AAA or even a 4th A-level to get in.

Depends. Universities are well known for their curious entrance criteria.

I was being specific to Surrey and the Tonmeister degree course.

Forget studying sound at anything but a basic level and get your skills
on the job. Qualifications don't really mean anything in this business.

For some people it's a chicken and egg situation. In my experience a
qualification helps get a job. It *doesn't* get you a job. But if sound
engineering doesn't involve an academic grounding, and there aren't any
courses with a vocational element, then I defer.

We are discussing sound engineering here or hadn't you noticed?

Also, what sort of sound engineer do you want to be? Do you have any
particular discipline in mind?

One of the advantages of education - helps you decide.

Not really. You can do something at university then get out in the field and
discover you hate it. Much better to get some real world experience and work
out what you want to do before wasting your time.

I reckon a one-year basic sound engineering course such as the City & Guilds
182 followed by a few years of working in the industry would serve him far
better than a degree.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Phildo wrote:
Of course one has to have some talent, geting through a total of 8 + 4
+ 4 years in becoming a tonemeister will weed many non talented out,
dont't you think?

Being good at a subject and managing to get a degree in it is no measure
of competence for the job. I have known engineers with no
qualifications but lots of experience who could knock spots off
Tonmeister graduates and tonmeister graduates who couldn't mix concrete.

Absolutely. Being a musician - ie being capable of playing a musical
instrument to a high standard - just ain't necessary to balance music. And
it's not something that anyone can learn. So a bit like being a musician
in that respect - you need a particular talent.

Of course to balance music you have to be able to identify the various
parts of the mix. Reading music - at least to lead sheet level - is also
useful. What is, of course, essential is an *appreciation* of music.
But being an expert in any one field of music won't necessarily make that
person a decent balance engineer. Producer, maybe.

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Phildo wrote:
Of course one has to have some talent, geting through a total of 8 + 4
+ 4 years in becoming a tonemeister will weed many non talented out,
dont't you think?

Being good at a subject and managing to get a degree in it is no measure
of competence for the job. I have known engineers with no
qualifications but lots of experience who could knock spots off
Tonmeister graduates and tonmeister graduates who couldn't mix concrete.

Absolutely. Being a musician - ie being capable of playing a musical
instrument to a high standard - just ain't necessary to balance music. And
it's not something that anyone can learn. So a bit like being a musician
in that respect - you need a particular talent.

And yet, it is surprising how many balance engineers, can play an instrument
to a high standard. At the companies where I have worked, one has always
been
expected to be able to mark up a full score, pre session, and edit from one,
post session. I have yet to come across a classical engineer who cannot do
this.

As regards pop music. I have known many tape ops/assistant engineers
who could play guitar, bs gtr, and drums as well as or better than many of
the artists we were recording.

Of course to balance music you have to be able to identify the various
parts of the mix. Reading music - at least to lead sheet level - is also
useful.

Probably essential.
Would you drive in a rally without a map? :-)

Iain

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
Absolutely. Being a musician - ie being capable of playing a musical
instrument to a high standard - just ain't necessary to balance music.
And it's not something that anyone can learn. So a bit like being a
musician in that respect - you need a particular talent.

And yet, it is surprising how many balance engineers, can play an
instrument to a high standard. At the companies where I have worked,
one has always been expected to be able to mark up a full score, pre
session, and edit from one, post session. I have yet to come across a
classical engineer who cannot do this.

I'm afraid my knowledge of such people is more limited being TV and
therefore somewhat lighter music based. [Thinks] Of the half dozen or so
mixers I know or knew who specialised in the classical side I'd say it was
about 50/50 as regards playing an instrument well. Although one of the
best plays piano, organ and sings to a pro standard. And is equally at
home with lighter music.

As regards pop music. I have known many tape ops/assistant engineers
who could play guitar, bs gtr, and drums as well as or better than many
of the artists we were recording.

Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people who
might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things had gone
according to plan.
Although my next assistant on a drama shoot is a Bay City Roller...

Of course to balance music you have to be able to identify the various
parts of the mix. Reading music - at least to lead sheet level - is
also useful.

Probably essential. Would you drive in a rally without a map? :-)

One mixer famous for the excellent results he got on early Top of the Pops
- where it really *was* live, complete with orchestra and arrangements
such to copy the actual record, played the records a few times before the
studio day, and more or less memorised them.

--
*I believe five out of four people have trouble with fractions. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people who
might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things had gone
according to plan.

Or people who are good musicians but who specifically would NOT want
a career as a professional musician...

- Logan

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

Phildo wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
...

Phildo wrote:

Your better bet is to work your way up. A degree can only teach you the
theory and experience means far more.


In that case, you're quite right. In my experience of degrees they include
a vocational element, and the fact (your fact - I haven't checked) that
the Tonmeister degrees offer no practical grounding or on-site placements
renders them of limited use.


I never said any such thing. Please take your words out of my mouth as I
find them most distasteful.


You said "A degree can only teach you the theory". Were you including
the Tonmeister degrees in that statement?




Unless his English is good he will find life very hard
there.

What do you mean? For the language or something else?


The language. You will be faced with a barrage of technical terms.


Not a reason for not doing it. I know many students whose first language
isn't English do very well with technical subjects.


And I have known several who found it a real barrier. The course is
difficult enough without having to translate passages you do not understand.
A thorough grasp of the language the course is taught in at that level is
essential.

Er, yes. Although Cambridge recently awarded a first to an 'illiterate'
student.



In the UK we finish school at 16 with what used to be called O levels but
are now called GCSEs. We have the option to then go to a 6th form college
to do A-levels which are more advanced. A levels today are about the
equivalent difficulty of what O levels where when I was at school as they
have REALLY dumbed down the exams to try to show the failing education
system is actually improving.

I'm not sure which subjects you are referring to, but your experience is
very different to mine. When were you at school? My experience is based on
doing them in the late 70s.


Last year I checked the current A level papers against my old O-level papers
from 1985 in maths, physics, music, French, chemistry, geography and English
(language and lit). The O-levels were harder by far in every case. My father
was a teacher and always moaned about how the exams were being dumbed down
when he heard the government crowing about the new levels of excellence they
had achieved so we decided to see for ourselves.


That's interesting. So the A level curriculum has slid beneath O level,
which leaves AS level at (say) (old) CSE 4?

Although they say AAB at Surrey you are more likely

looking at AAA or even a 4th A-level to get in.


Depends. Universities are well known for their curious entrance criteria.


I was being specific to Surrey and the Tonmeister degree course.


OK, I don't know about Surrey's admissions policy, and I defer to your
knowledge. My experience is that allowance is made for life skills and
so forth. If Surrey doesn't, then that's that.


Forget studying sound at anything but a basic level and get your skills
on the job. Qualifications don't really mean anything in this business.


For some people it's a chicken and egg situation. In my experience a
qualification helps get a job. It *doesn't* get you a job. But if sound
engineering doesn't involve an academic grounding, and there aren't any
courses with a vocational element, then I defer.


We are discussing sound engineering here or hadn't you noticed?



Yes, hence the reference.


Also, what sort of sound engineer do you want to be? Do you have any
particular discipline in mind?

One of the advantages of education - helps you decide.


Not really. You can do something at university then get out in the field and
discover you hate it. Much better to get some real world experience and work
out what you want to do before wasting your time.

I think we're going to have to agree to differ. Education is a part of
the 'real world', at least in my opinion.


I reckon a one-year basic sound engineering course such as the City & Guilds
182 followed by a few years of working in the industry would serve him far
better than a degree.

And on that, although I know nothing about sound engineering but based
on my knowledge of vocational qualifications, I would be inclined to
agree. Much as I hate the C&G approach to assessment.

Rob

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

.... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article . com,
Tim Scott wrote:
"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

I personally get ****ed of with those who try and get sniffy about
definitions. Most of the talent and production types tend to talk about
sound engineers regardless of the job they do.

To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate all
sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix the
broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

A Degree in Sound Engineering??

I find that the best engineers have one thing in common.
They play an instrument!!
kevin

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:45:25 GMT, justin wrote:


That may be true, but typically a 4 year, post secondary school
experience in a recording studio won't come even close to a 4 year
university drill. I'm talking university degree, not some SAE, Full
sail or whatever one year course student mill, offering "tonemeister"
certificate.

OP wanted information on audio ENGINEERING degree and you arrogantly
knocked him by implying he doesn't know the difference between audio
technician and a tonemeister.

Yes :) I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

That may mean the same thing where you're coming from but he can't GET
an Audio Engineering/Tonemeister job in Italian broadcasting or
production facility without university degree in music or applied
technology. Neither would you unless you had some major international
production credits.

Just to put the things in a perspective, in Italy and elsewhere
continental EU the difference is equivalent to the difference between a
nurse and a physician, a draft person and an architect or a sales
assistant and a marketing director. So is the knowledge, skill,
responsibility and competence level. Salary too, about 30-50%.

And since you are posting from the University of Berlin, give Deutche
Rundfunk a call and ask them for the job requirements. They invented
the term Tonemeister some 60 years ago.


j.

So the Tonmeister is the best degree. I understood this. Now I know
that there's in University of Surrey, of Berlin and Wien, searching on
the net. Do you know some other places?

Thank you ALL very much!!!


Gianluca

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:07:22 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article . com,
Tim Scott wrote:
"The deffinition of a "technician" and "engineer" in Europe is based on

the level of education, technicians have secondary level while
engineers are university graduates"

... that certainly isn't something that I've found in the UK part of
Europe, although that isn't surprising, as the UK Europeyness has
always being a bit of a question mark!

I personally get ****ed of with those who try and get sniffy about
definitions. Most of the talent and production types tend to talk about
sound engineers regardless of the job they do.

To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate all
sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix the
broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

Yes, that's why I would like an engineering degree, not a simple
technician course or to learn the job doing it with professionists.

Thanks!!!

Gianluca

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Someone Out In Space wrote:
Yes :) I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

I'm still unclear exactly what you mean. Do you wish to design, build and
or repair audio equipment, or 'merely' use it?

If you intend being what is commonly known as a sound engineer in the UK,
here's a list.

TV, radio, films, post production, recording studios (including location
recording for sale as CD) theatre and live music events. There are some
who work in more than one field, but most specialise. And within all of
those fields, there is even more specialisation. For example in TV,
different people might specialise in studio, outside broadcast (mainly
sports) and location recording (mainly drama) Documentaries are also a
specialised field.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Logan Shaw" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people who
might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things had gone
according to plan.

Or people who are good musicians but who specifically would NOT want
a career as a professional musician...

:-)))
I could have probably done either, but I chose the control room as opposed
to the studio. I like to eat regularly:-)

Iain

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

One mixer famous for the excellent results he got on early Top of the Pops
- where it really *was* live, complete with orchestra and arrangements
such to copy the actual record, played the records a few times before the
studio day, and more or less memorised them.

That's a good method. Most classical engineers familiarise themselves
in some depth with the work which they about to record, by listening to
other well regarded versions. However, differences in interpretation and
tempo can sometimes be alarming. As a producer I often work with
said, when listening to a Naxos recording "Is that Beethoven III?
It sounds vaguely familiar. .. a note here, a phrase there..," :-)

Iain

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"justin" wrote in message
...
In article , Phildo
wrote:

"justin" wrote in message
...
In Europe you are not an Engineer without formal four year university
degree, regardles of the profession.

Ahem, complete and utter ********.


Nice argument.

You spoke complete and utter ******** and I call them as I see them. I know
loads of sound engineers without degrees and none of them have any problems
with using the term.

Being good at a subject and managing to get a degree in it is no measure
of
competence for the job. I have known engineers with no qualifications but
lots of experience who could knock spots off Tonmeister graduates and
tonmeister graduates who couldn't mix concrete.


That may be true, but typically a 4 year, post secondary school
experience in a recording studio won't come even close to a 4 year
university drill. I'm talking university degree, not some SAE, Full
sail or whatever one year course student mill, offering "tonemeister"
certificate.

I never said that. Easier way would be to do a basic course like the C&G182
first then get job experience. That would be how it works for most sound
engineering jobs. If you want to do studio design or acoustic consultancy
then go for the tonmeister.

OP wanted information on audio ENGINEERING degree and you arrogantly
knocked him by implying he doesn't know the difference between audio
technician and a tonemeister.

Not at all. He said he wants to be a sound engineer. These come in many
different forms (and not all of them require a degree). He needs to be more
specific about what he wants to do. Just saying he wants to be a "sound
engineer" doesn't cut it.

That may mean the same thing where you're coming from but he can't GET
an Audio Engineering/Tonemeister job in Italian broadcasting or
production facility without university degree in music or applied
technology.



Neither would you unless you had some major international
production credits.

So? He never said he wanted to do that. All he said was he wanted to be a
sound engineer. Stop hallucinating and reading things that aren't there.

Just to put the things in a perspective, in Italy and elsewhere
continental EU the difference is equivalent to the difference between a
nurse and a physician, a draft person and an architect or a sales
assistant and a marketing director. So is the knowledge, skill,
responsibility and competence level. Salary too, about 30-50%.

When you apply it to classical recording or similar maybe but they're just a
bunch of elitist snobs.

And since you are posting from the University of Berlin, give Deutche
Rundfunk a call and ask them for the job requirements. They invented
the term Tonemeister some 60 years ago.

What a pillock. The DFS news server is open to everyone and most people now
use it as their news server. I have nothing to do with Berlin uni. I'm
posting from a cruise ship in the middle of the Caribbean.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate all
sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix the
broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

You're the old school, Dave:-) Not image conscious:-)

Two of the most skilled mixers I have ever had the pleasure to
with had the lowly job title of Gram Operator at the BBC.

Iain

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
Yes - again the recording studio side tends to attract more people
who might have wanted a career in front of the microphone if things
had gone according to plan.

Or people who are good musicians but who specifically would NOT want a
career as a professional musician...

:-)))
I could have probably done either, but I chose the control room as
opposed to the studio. I like to eat regularly:-)

At one time that was true, but my side of the game is now mainly freelance
too, so lots of time to decorate the spare room. ;-)

--
*Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
To me, an engineer designs or fixes things. I'm an operator. I operate
all sorts of sound equipment. And proud to be called just that. I fix
the broken bits of my kit at home - later. Wearing a different hat ;-)

You're the old school, Dave:-) Not image conscious:-)

I don't have to prove anything to myself. I'll happily take a day's work
rigging a studio then clipping mics on the talent and sit quietly standing
by while someone else mixes. And still love a day on a Fisher boom -
although I'd be the first to admit I'm not as good as I once was, through
lack of practice. And grams work has come suddenly rather back in fashion.
If it's the sort of show where music and FX can be put on there and then,
I'm rather cheaper than dubbing suite time. ;-)

Two of the most skilled mixers I have ever had the pleasure to
with had the lowly job title of Gram Operator at the BBC.

In the good ol' days any current TV mixer would have started out tracking
booms and rigging, then 'move on' to boom operating, then grams, then
mixing. You learnt your craft slowly.

IMHO, nothing like going through all the jobs that as a sound supervisor
you're going to 'supervise' while mixing.

It's something I really don't like about at least some 'film school'
graduates. They expect to be Lighting Directors etc without starting as -
and learning how to do it well - a camera assistant. Same with sound. They
say "I'm a sound recordist" - but ain't got a clue about boom operating.
And I hate with a passion the use of personal mics unless they're the only
option. Which they very rarely are.

Rant over. My new TV has just arrived and needs setting up. A back
projection Sagem using DLP technology. Lets see if it's as good as it
looked in the shop. If not, it's going back and I'll get a CRT one as I
intended. ;-)

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On 23/03/05 18:57, in article , "Phildo"
wrote:

In Europe you are not an Engineer without formal four year university
degree, regardles of the profession.

Ahem, complete and utter ********.


Nice argument.

You spoke complete and utter ******** and I call them as I see them. I know
loads of sound engineers without degrees and none of them have any problems
with using the term.

Phil, the issue is linguistical. While I have absolutely no problem calling
myself a "sound engineer" in English, I would never dare to call myself a
"Toningenieur" in German. In German, for example, "Ingenieur" is a title
that is comparable in status and usage with "Doktor".


Joe

--
Joe Kotroczo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On 23/03/05 20:23, in article , "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote:

(...)
Two of the most skilled mixers I have ever had the pleasure to
with had the lowly job title of Gram Operator at the BBC.

In the good ol' days any current TV mixer would have started out tracking
booms and rigging, then 'move on' to boom operating, then grams, then
mixing. You learnt your craft slowly.

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm unfamiliar with the term "gram" or "gram
operator... Anyone care to explain?

Personally I found boom operating to be very hard... With boom poles that
is, never come across a Fisher boom. I always thought they'd gone out of
fashion, at least for feature film shooting.


Joe

--
Joe Kotroczo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Joe Kotroczo wrote:
In the good ol' days any current TV mixer would have started out tracking
booms and rigging, then 'move on' to boom operating, then grams, then
mixing. You learnt your craft slowly.

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm unfamiliar with the term "gram" or "gram
operator... Anyone care to explain?

The person who plays in music, sound FX etc, into a TV show which is
either live, or recorded as live - ie little or no audio post production.
Grams - because originally these would have come from mainly gramophone
records. Later reel to reel tape or NAB carts. Now anything from Minidisc
to Instant Replay, 360, etc.

Personally I found boom operating to be very hard... With boom poles that
is, never come across a Fisher boom. I always thought they'd gone out of
fashion, at least for feature film shooting.

Fisher type booms are still used in studios for things like sit-coms and
multi-camera shot soaps, etc. They have more reach than any pole - and are
far less tiring to use. But are difficult to transport to a location as
they are rather delicate things. But they require special skills - a
Fisher boom operator can change to a pole happily - assuming he has the
physical attributes - but not so easily the other way round. Although, of
course, there are many skilled in both fields.

Basically, for single camera shoots, a pole will usually suffice. For
multi-camera - ie 'live' type things - a Fisher is near essential. It can
rack in and out - say from about 10-20 ft - as fast as it can swing. You
can't do that with a pole.

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

Joe Kotroczo wrote:

On 23/03/05 20:23, in article , "Dave Plowman
(News)" wrote:

In the good ol' days any current TV mixer would have started out tracking
booms and rigging, then 'move on' to boom operating, then grams, then
mixing. You learnt your craft slowly.

I'm ashamed to admit that I'm unfamiliar with the term "gram" or "gram
operator... Anyone care to explain?

Hi, Joe

Would you believe... gramaphone? My dad was an old-style TV chief
engineer and it was always a hoot when he got flustered with my
infernally loud "gram deck"...

Gav

PS wow on the Quicksilver heads-up.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
Phil, the issue is linguistical. While I have absolutely no problem
calling
myself a "sound engineer" in English, I would never dare to call myself a
"Toningenieur" in German. In German, for example, "Ingenieur" is a title
that is comparable in status and usage with "Doktor".

Well now we're all part of the same union, the sooner the rest of you Euros
fall in line with the proper (ie British) way of doing things the better ;-)

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:14:44 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
Phil, the issue is linguistical. While I have absolutely no problem
calling
myself a "sound engineer" in English, I would never dare to call myself a
"Toningenieur" in German. In German, for example, "Ingenieur" is a title
that is comparable in status and usage with "Doktor".

Well now we're all part of the same union, the sooner the rest of you Euros
fall in line with the proper (ie British) way of doing things the better ;-)

Actually, the European (and US) way *is* the proper way, it's the
Brits who sneer at engineers. Interesting, given how much of Britain's
previous Greatness relied on British engineering skills and
inventions.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:14:44 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:

"Joe Kotroczo" wrote in message
...
Phil, the issue is linguistical. While I have absolutely no problem
calling
myself a "sound engineer" in English, I would never dare to call myself
a
"Toningenieur" in German. In German, for example, "Ingenieur" is a title
that is comparable in status and usage with "Doktor".

Well now we're all part of the same union, the sooner the rest of you
Euros
fall in line with the proper (ie British) way of doing things the better
;-)

Actually, the European (and US) way *is* the proper way,

Says who?

it's the
Brits who sneer at engineers. Interesting, given how much of Britain's
previous Greatness relied on British engineering skills and
inventions.

Yeah, we produced the greatest engineers the world has ever known so we
should decide how the term is used.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:46:33 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Someone Out In Space wrote:
Yes :) I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

I'm still unclear exactly what you mean. Do you wish to design, build and
or repair audio equipment, or 'merely' use it?

Both, I want a degree that can teach me the most possible. I want to
work for the music, but I'm better in phisics/maths than in music, so
I thought that sound engineer (or Audio engineer) could be the right
compromise. As a recording engineer, as the one who study the acoustic
in a theater, in a concert hall, or I don't know... mixing music, it's
not so clear to me too what I want to do, but what I know is that I
want to use my rational skills for the music. Maybe I'm a dreamer, or
just ingenuos, but I'm 22 and I can still decide what to do with my
life, so... I want to try, and I need all the informations I can have
from you all :)

If you intend being what is commonly known as a sound engineer in the UK,
here's a list.

TV, radio, films, post production, recording studios (including location
recording for sale as CD) theatre and live music events. There are some
who work in more than one field, but most specialise. And within all of
those fields, there is even more specialisation. For example in TV,
different people might specialise in studio, outside broadcast (mainly
sports) and location recording (mainly drama) Documentaries are also a
specialised field.

Thank you all once again!

Gianluca

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:31:56 +0100, Joe Kotroczo
wrote:

On 23/03/05 18:57, in article , "Phildo"
wrote:

In Europe you are not an Engineer without formal four year university
degree, regardles of the profession.

Ahem, complete and utter ********.


Nice argument.

You spoke complete and utter ******** and I call them as I see them. I know
loads of sound engineers without degrees and none of them have any problems
with using the term.

Phil, the issue is linguistical. While I have absolutely no problem calling
myself a "sound engineer" in English, I would never dare to call myself a
"Toningenieur" in German. In German, for example, "Ingenieur" is a title
that is comparable in status and usage with "Doktor".


Joe


In italy too, engineer is comparable to "Doctor" :)

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

In article ,
Someone Out In Space wrote:
I'm still unclear exactly what you mean. Do you wish to design, build
and or repair audio equipment, or 'merely' use it?

Both, I want a degree that can teach me the most possible.

I'd be very surprised if a course anywhere covered both to degree level.

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"justin" wrote in message
...
In article , Phildo
wrote:




Easier way would be to do a basic course like the C&G182
first then get job experience. That would be how it works for most sound
engineering jobs. If you want to do studio design or acoustic consultancy
then go for the tonmeister.

Mate, dude, you have absolutely no clue what these terms represent. Get
some education, get back and we'll talk. And stop offering advices -
clearly you're the one who could use them the most.

I know full well what these terms represent as far as my industry goes. Read
what the OP has posted. He wants to be a "sound engineer". That can mean a
myriad of things. He needs to be more specific as to what he wants to do. I
post from alt.audio.pro.live-sound specific to the live industry where a
degree means ****-all and an engineer is anyone who uses the board among
others.

Get off your high horse and lose the snobbish attitude you sanctimonious
**** and realise that your world is not the only one out there.

As for offering advice, I've been doing it on here for many years (from day
one of this newsgroup) and will continue to do to those that need education
like yourself.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 13:57:34 -0400, "Phildo" wrote:


OP wanted information on audio ENGINEERING degree and you arrogantly
knocked him by implying he doesn't know the difference between audio
technician and a tonemeister.

Not at all. He said he wants to be a sound engineer. These come in many
different forms (and not all of them require a degree). He needs to be more
specific about what he wants to do. Just saying he wants to be a "sound
engineer" doesn't cut it.


As I wrote on another reply,
" I want to work for the music, but I'm better in phisics/maths than
in music, so I thought that sound engineer (or Audio engineer) could
be the right compromise. As a recording engineer, as the one who study
the acoustic in a theater, in a concert hall, or I don't know...
mixing music, it's not so clear to me too what I want to do, but what
I know is that I want to use my rational skills for the music. Maybe
I'm a dreamer, or just ingenuos, but I'm 22 and I can still decide
what to do with my life, so... I want to try, and I need all the
informations I can have from you all :)"

Any suggestion will be appreciated :)

Thank you!!!

Gianluca

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

"Someone Out In Space" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:46:33 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Someone Out In Space wrote:
Yes :) I just wanted to know which is the best sound Engineering
degree, because I think I have the skills to become an audio engineer,
not a simple technician. I want to learn to do, why to do, how to do,
and I want to have a wider range oj jobs involved in
audio/sound/acoustic I can do, 'cos I know there are few job places
(at least here in Italy, but I can consider to work everywhere, at
least at the beginning).

I'm still unclear exactly what you mean. Do you wish to design, build and
or repair audio equipment, or 'merely' use it?

Both, I want a degree that can teach me the most possible. I want to
work for the music, but I'm better in phisics/maths than in music, so
I thought that sound engineer (or Audio engineer) could be the right
compromise. As a recording engineer, as the one who study the acoustic
in a theater, in a concert hall, or I don't know... mixing music, it's
not so clear to me too what I want to do, but what I know is that I
want to use my rational skills for the music. Maybe I'm a dreamer, or
just ingenuos, but I'm 22 and I can still decide what to do with my
life, so... I want to try, and I need all the informations I can have
from you all :)

If you want to become a live engineer mixing music for concerts then forget
about the degree and work your way up in the real world. It will be useful
as a recording engineer but there are specific courses for this. You need to
be more specific in what you want to do before you choose a course to go on.

Phildo

Best Sound Engineering Degree
 

As I wrote on another reply,
" I want to work for the music, but I'm better in phisics/maths than
in music, so I thought that sound engineer (or Audio engineer) could
be the right compromise. As a recording engineer, as the one who study
the acoustic in a theater, in a concert hall, or I don't know...
mixing music, it's not so clear to me too what I want to do, but what
I know is that I want to use my rational skills for the music. Maybe
I'm a dreamer, or just ingenuos, but I'm 22 and I can still decide
what to do with my life, so... I want to try, and I need all the
informations I can have from you all :)"

Any suggestion will be appreciated :)


If your goal was to study in the US, I would suggest that you attenda
four school and obtain BSEE. Your skills in physics and math make you
perfectly suited for the coursework. There are a few engineering schools
that offer specializations in acoustics, and others in music or stage
craft.

Purdue University is well regarded for its engineering and its theater
sound programs. Penn State well known for their graduate acoustics
programs. The University of Miami has a music/engineering program.


If you obtain an engineering degree, you will be employable in a number
of fields, not limited to music or sound reinforcement.

Mixing sound is but one small facet of pretty broad industry. There are
a number of career opportunities that are pretty far from knob jockey,
but still enable you to be connected to an interesting career.

Don't waste your time going to "knob school". Get the real sheepskin. It
will increase your value to many (not all) prospective employers.