I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on creating
a shortlist to audition. I regret I do not have a spare cupboard to do
what Don Pearce did and anyway I prefer to buy rather than make.

The sole purpose is for two-channel music (opera recorded "live" is a
special interest and piano music too - but I like a lot more "natural"
music than that).

The room is not large: 7 metres (23') by 3.2 metres (10'6") and 2.6 metres
(8'6") high.

I have Proac Response D15s (1 metre tall floorstanders with 6.5"
mid-woofers). I am sure I would not mind the cost of matching the
D15s appropriately. They produce quite reasonable and tuneful bass.
Nevertheless, Googling suggests a good subwoofer should improve things
such as piano and venue ambience. Is this a reasonable expectation?

What types should I be looking for to work with the D15s? Google suggests
the modern trend for "musical" subwoofers is to use a closed box rather
than one with a port. Is this correct?

Concerning particular makes/models, REL's lower-end ST series (Stampede,
Strata, maybe Storm) get good reviews seeming to eclipse most of the
others in the UK market. Is REL a good manufacturer to start with?

--
John Phillips

I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on
creating
a shortlist to audition.

My suspicion is that it is difficult to gain a lot from auditions
outside your room because an unequalized subwoofer is going to be
dominated by driving the room modes. If your main motivation was to
gain some bass oomph that might be fine but an attempt at accuracy is
going to be a lot more challenging.

A couple of suggestions: ask for a demonstration in a modest sized room
of the difference between a simple passive subwoofer and one that tries
to compensate for driving the room modes. Alternatively, compare the
passive subwoofer against a good pair of headphones. This may not tell
you what will happen in your own room but it should give some feel for
what is missing without a subwoofer and whether a passive subwoofer
(with large deviations due to room modes) is going to provide an
acceptable improvement or just add a bit oompth and sound a bit weird.

On 2005-03-31, andy wrote:
I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on
creating
a shortlist to audition.

My suspicion is that it is difficult to gain a lot from auditions
outside your room because an unequalized subwoofer is going to be
dominated by driving the room modes. If your main motivation was to
gain some bass oomph that might be fine but an attempt at accuracy is
going to be a lot more challenging.

Thanks for that. It seems that getting the right shortlist is likely to
help me weed out those which it would be no use to try out at home.

I did spend a fair bit more than the price of a mid-range sub at each
of a couple of local audio emporia not too long ago so I was going to
ask for a home demo. Thus I want to get some independent advice on how
to avoid trying out any non-starters.

I suspect that wanting subtlety more than oomph (challenging as you say)
means I do not really need the biggest driver/box/amp (I was actually
assuming an active box) as long as it's big enough for the room.
The trouble is I have no idea of what's big enough. I guess going in
without a good idea of what's right will tend to encourage advice veering
towards the unnecessarily big and expensive.

A couple of suggestions: ask for a demonstration in a modest sized room
of the difference between a simple passive subwoofer and one that tries
to compensate for driving the room modes. Alternatively, compare the
passive subwoofer against a good pair of headphones. This may not tell
you what will happen in your own room but it should give some feel for
what is missing without a subwoofer and whether a passive subwoofer
(with large deviations due to room modes) is going to provide an
acceptable improvement or just add a bit oompth and sound a bit weird.

Yes. I think that's a good idea to get a calibration first of all in
the dealer's demo room of the difference I can expect. Thanks.

--
John Phillips

John Phillips wrote:
I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on
creating a shortlist to audition. I regret I do not have a spare
cupboard to do what Don Pearce did and anyway I prefer to buy rather
than make.
snipped

Why not just buy speakers with bigger drivers?

Tannoy JBL

or kit built for you from

https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/...Systems_1.html

Forte would be a good buy

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 19:39:18 GMT, "Dave xxxx"
wrote:

John Phillips wrote:
I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on
creating a shortlist to audition. I regret I do not have a spare
cupboard to do what Don Pearce did and anyway I prefer to buy rather
than make.
snipped

Why not just buy speakers with bigger drivers?

Tannoy JBL

or kit built for you from

https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/...Systems_1.html

Forte would be a good buy

Even better, buy some good 15" long-throw drivers (a pair of Adire
Tempests would be ideal), and mount them in an 'infinite baffle' aka
ceiling or basement, driven by a 'plate' amplifier. You'll get
*massively* more really deep bass than from any commercial sub, for
far less money.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on creating
a shortlist to audition. I regret I do not have a spare cupboard to do
what Don Pearce did and anyway I prefer to buy rather than make.

The sole purpose is for two-channel music (opera recorded "live" is a
special interest and piano music too - but I like a lot more "natural"
music than that).

The room is not large: 7 metres (23') by 3.2 metres (10'6") and 2.6 metres
(8'6") high.

I have Proac Response D15s (1 metre tall floorstanders with 6.5"
mid-woofers). I am sure I would not mind the cost of matching the
D15s appropriately. They produce quite reasonable and tuneful bass.
Nevertheless, Googling suggests a good subwoofer should improve things
such as piano and venue ambience. Is this a reasonable expectation?

What types should I be looking for to work with the D15s? Google suggests
the modern trend for "musical" subwoofers is to use a closed box rather
than one with a port. Is this correct?

Concerning particular makes/models, REL's lower-end ST series (Stampede,
Strata, maybe Storm) get good reviews seeming to eclipse most of the
others in the UK market. Is REL a good manufacturer to start with?

Those Rel ST range are ported, so that knocks out the arguement that CB is
more "musical"

I have a Rel Storm, and for music it is good enough and I think for your
room it'll be more than suitable...although if going to be used for HT I
would buy something else. So you're only going to use it for 2 channel hifi?
And not home theatre?

On 2005-03-31, Nath wrote:
Those Rel ST range are ported, so that knocks out the arguement that CB is
more "musical"

I think the recently released Stampede, Strata 5 and Storm 5 are all
now closed box (according to http://www.rel.net/) although you are right
that the older Storm III and Strata III do have ports (as do the bigger
STs). Google still provides a number of opinions that this is the better
approach for music as opposed to HT so maybe that is why REL have changed.
The trouble is I don't know enough to assess whether this is right. You
have to treat information on the web with some caution.

I have a Rel Storm, and for music it is good enough and I think for your
room it'll be more than suitable...although if going to be used for HT I
would buy something else. So you're only going to use it for 2 channel hifi?
And not home theatre?

Yes, music 99.9%. It is only occasionally that I play DVDs (and in
stereo only).

I was actually wondering if the Storm 5 might be bigger than I would want,
and wondering how I could decide what I might need (well, other than by
listening).

I am not completely sure of the physics but I think bigger means louder
(capability) as well as lower. For music use I was not sure if I needed
a great deal of the "louder" element, and only the big Bosendorfer
Grand gets down to 16 Hz - normal pianos only go down to 27 Hz I think.
Some of the percussion used by Ligeti is very low I suppose but I was
not expecting to benefit from visceral impact much below 20 Hz.

Is it possible to over-size a subwoofer WRT the room? If there's no
risk the Storm 5 looks like a good candidate for a home test. Thanks for
the opinion.

--
John Phillips

John Phillips wrote:

I am not completely sure of the physics but I think bigger means
louder (capability) as well as lower. For music use I was not sure
if I needed a great deal of the "louder" element, and only the big
Bosendorfer
Grand gets down to 16 Hz - normal pianos only go down to 27 Hz I
think. Some of the percussion used by Ligeti is very low I suppose
but I was
not expecting to benefit from visceral impact much below 20 Hz.

Bigger piston area (cone size) = less movement for same pressure change =
bigger capability to go low or loud for the same excursion. Hence the 15,
18, 21 and 24 inch cones you'll see in pro subs.

Is it possible to over-size a subwoofer WRT the room? If there's no
risk the Storm 5 looks like a good candidate for a home test. Thanks
for the opinion.

I've run 18 inch subs in my living room (not permanently, just for the fun
factor) and they sounded fine - my home sub is a 10inch but I don't listen
loud.

--
We are the keepers of the sacred words: Ni, Pang,
and Ni-wom!

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
On 2005-03-31, Nath wrote:
Those Rel ST range are ported, so that knocks out the arguement that CB
is
more "musical"

I think the recently released Stampede, Strata 5 and Storm 5 are all
now closed box (according to http://www.rel.net/)

Haven't really paid any attention to new Rels. Sorry.

although you are right
that the older Storm III and Strata III do have ports (as do the bigger
STs). Google still provides a number of opinions that this is the better
approach for music as opposed to HT so maybe that is why REL have changed.
The trouble is I don't know enough to assess whether this is right. You
have to treat information on the web with some caution.

Yeah esp MJ acoustics ;-)



I have a Rel Storm, and for music it is good enough and I think for your
room it'll be more than suitable...although if going to be used for HT I
would buy something else. So you're only going to use it for 2 channel
hifi?
And not home theatre?

Yes, music 99.9%. It is only occasionally that I play DVDs (and in
stereo only).

I was actually wondering if the Storm 5 might be bigger than I would want,
and wondering how I could decide what I might need (well, other than by
listening).

When it comes to subs, headroom and higher output means less distortion
during normal use...whether or not bass head or like it loud is another
matter ;-) for music though you don't need a monster sub, although don't buy
a 6" SB ;-) I think a Strata should do in most cases, and room of that size
for music system only.


I am not completely sure of the physics but I think bigger means louder
(capability) as well as lower. For music use I was not sure if I needed
a great deal of the "louder" element, and only the big Bosendorfer
Grand gets down to 16 Hz - normal pianos only go down to 27 Hz I think.
Some of the percussion used by Ligeti is very low I suppose but I was
not expecting to benefit from visceral impact much below 20 Hz.

Is it possible to over-size a subwoofer WRT the room?

No not really, if you oversize it just means overspent and got lots of
headroom left. I use a SVS 20-39 PC Plus in a small room, other people have
used this sub in 20' x 18' rooms. Sounds great for HT.

If there's no
risk the Storm 5 looks like a good candidate for a home test. Thanks for
the opinion.

Yeah should be fine. Apparently HSU are good "musical" subs, their tube is
tuned really low so get that 1812 cannonfire :-)

On 2005-03-31, Dave xxxx wrote:
John Phillips wrote:
I'm not familiar with subwoofers and would appreciate advice on
creating a shortlist to audition. I regret I do not have a spare
cupboard to do what Don Pearce did and anyway I prefer to buy rather
than make.
snipped

Why not just buy speakers with bigger drivers?

Do you have to accept a compromise in the bottom octave from a reasonably
sized full range enclosure as compared to a purpose-designed subwoofer?
(Not sure if this is a silly question but I ask it anyway).

I note the Wilmslow Audio Forte is quoted as having a frequency response
(no roll-off limit given) down only to 30 Hz. My current 'speakers
are "specified" to the same lower frequency limit by the manufacturer
(but again no roll-off limit :-( so maybe they're not equivalent).

--
John Phillips