"Iain M Churches" wrote


As far as classical recordings are concerned, it is of no consequence to
the
orchestral players who pays the bill. They get paid the same session rate.
But conductors usually regard cheap labels as a means of gaining
experience
and a stepping stone to a better label.


Interesting comment. What makes a 'better label'....???

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

Counterfeit CD's are clones of the original produced at next to
no cost.


The 'pirate stuff' I've seen (only a couple of Chinese DVDs) is/was a damn
sight more obviously fake than the only 'replica' watch I've seen - which
was an exact copy of a gold Rolex I had at the time. From a few feet you
coudn't tell them apart.

From a few feet? You need to be more discerning that that:-)

People do this to fool the public, and make money with little or
no investment.


Yes, I'm sure some do - to flog at car boots and round the pubs....

It's much much bigger than that.


So where are they sold then?

Go to Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Tallinn, Vilna, Moscow,
St Petersburg, you will find nothing but counterfeit CDs in most record
shops. It's a huge multi-million business. In KL, they have one of each
CD on the stand, and then burn you a clone, and colour copy the inlay
card while you wait.

Very few people can differentiate between a
genuine and counterfeit CD.

I disagree but irrelevant anyway...

Even experts find it extremely difficult. The packaging is usually
flawed in some way - which is a clue.


I don't agree. Where is this confusion taking place - in a brightly lit
music shop or in some dark car park behind a pub somewhere....???

Brightly lit shops outside the UK, but within the UK on a market stall
near you:-) A recent "investigation" at Portobello and Camden Lock
markets indicated that more than 70& of CD's on sale were fake.
The heavy cavalry appeared within the week. But removing the
traders is not too effective. You need to find the source. That's
not so easy.

Nothing unsubstantiated here. Read the BPI annual report.

Are you kidding?

It's quite an eye-opener.

If the price of CDs came down, do you think they would sell more of them?
Hard to say.

48% of all statistics are made up on the spot.....
Well, 46.75% actually:-)
I believe the piracy figs.


No-one is forced to buy a product
'Take it or leave it'...???

Yes, that's how commerce works.
If you want to buy a house or a car, you pay
the going price. The same for a CD (most shops
will give you 10% discount if you ask)

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

"Tim Martin" wrote in message
...

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

Sorry, but whichever way to care to look at it, piracy/counterfeiting ,
be
it of a book,a painting or a recording, is theft.

What I find odd is the way the BBC seems to be promoting Itunes and other
similarly-priced download services, without mentioning the cheaper legal
services. When Itunes started up, the BBC reported it as the first
legally-available music download service for people in the UK; but I'd
been
using emusic.com for years.

Emusic.com charges 10 dollars a month, for which you can download 40
tracks,
so it's a fraction of the price of Itunes etc.



Expect the BBC to become a lot more 'revenue aware' in the coming decade -
they need to pay for all these reporters and film crews that have to
travel all over the place so that they can stand outside some Magistrates
Court just to tell you some utter nonentity got fined for ****ing on his
neighbour's lawn....

ENG (electronic news gathering) is dirt cheap compared with making real
programmes. That's why TV companies do it so well.

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

"Iain M Churches" wrote


As far as classical recordings are concerned, it is of no consequence to
the
orchestral players who pays the bill. They get paid the same session
rate.
But conductors usually regard cheap labels as a means of gaining
experience
and a stepping stone to a better label.


Interesting comment. What makes a 'better label'....???

As far as classical labels are concerned, it means
a company with conductors and orchestras that have a
high reputation internationally.

Regretfully, the Maidenhead Symphonia is not on this list:-)

Interestingly, if you compare a classical recording on a cheap
and a full price label, you will sometimes wonder if you are
listening to the same piece of music.

Iain

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

Counterfeit CD's are clones of the original produced at next to
no cost.


The 'pirate stuff' I've seen (only a couple of Chinese DVDs) is/was a
damn
sight more obviously fake than the only 'replica' watch I've seen - which
was an exact copy of a gold Rolex I had at the time. From a few feet you
coudn't tell them apart.

From a few feet? You need to be more discerning that that:-)


I am, mine was the real one... ;-)



People do this to fool the public, and make money with little or
no investment.


Yes, I'm sure some do - to flog at car boots and round the pubs....

It's much much bigger than that.


So where are they sold then?

Go to Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Tallinn, Vilna, Moscow,
St Petersburg, you will find nothing but counterfeit CDs in most record
shops. It's a huge multi-million business. In KL, they have one of each
CD on the stand, and then burn you a clone, and colour copy the inlay
card while you wait.



OK. All I can say to that is 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap...'



Very few people can differentiate between a
genuine and counterfeit CD.

I disagree but irrelevant anyway...

Even experts find it extremely difficult. The packaging is usually
flawed in some way - which is a clue.


OK, fine. Note that I don't *know* from personal experience - the only
*certain* bootleg I have is a record I bought from eBay....




I don't agree. Where is this confusion taking place - in a brightly lit
music shop or in some dark car park behind a pub somewhere....???

Brightly lit shops outside the UK, but within the UK on a market stall
near you:-) A recent "investigation" at Portobello and Camden Lock
markets indicated that more than 70& of CD's on sale were fake.
The heavy cavalry appeared within the week. But removing the
traders is not too effective. You need to find the source. That's
not so easy.

Nothing unsubstantiated here. Read the BPI annual report.

Are you kidding?

It's quite an eye-opener.

If the price of CDs came down, do you think they would sell more of them?
Hard to say.


Sure. No-one inside the MI (including you) wants to consider there may hve
been a better way than *greed*....


48% of all statistics are made up on the spot.....
Well, 46.75% actually:-)
I believe the piracy figs.


No-one is forced to buy a product
'Take it or leave it'...???

Yes, that's how commerce works.
If you want to buy a house or a car, you pay
the going price. The same for a CD (most shops
will give you 10% discount if you ask)


And the way consumerism works is that if summat is too expensive (or deemed
to be overpriced) then it will get ripped off - that's the way of the world.
Your own cited examples demonstrate just how much of a market there is for
'knock offs'....

Producing records is (presumably) pleasant and easy work (nothing to plough,
nothing to lift and haul), it's also very rewarding (while stifling a lot of
real talent, I gather). I can not shed a tear over the fact that the whole
sorry mess lends itself to equally easy piracy - not when a CD can cost
nearly 20 quid for ripe old material one minute and then one (from new
talent) can appear FOC with a Sunday paper...

Interesting that the strongest defenders of such an obviously flawed system
in this group are those that are connected and derived financial benefit
from it, isn't it?

I've said it a thousand times - pitch a music CD (*any* music CD) at say
1.99 a go and work back from that in terms of payments/royalties or whatever
and this whole piracy thing would melt away under the heading of 'who can be
arsed?' but that wouldn't suit the MI at all would it?

"Iain M Churches" wrote


Interesting comment. What makes a 'better label'....???

As far as classical labels are concerned, it means
a company with conductors and orchestras that have a
high reputation internationally.

Regretfully, the Maidenhead Symphonia is not on this list:-)


I have no problems with the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra's
performance of *all* the Mahler symphonies I have on Naxos.



Interestingly, if you compare a classical recording on a cheap
and a full price label, you will sometimes wonder if you are
listening to the same piece of music.


Sure, but that doesn't mean the most expensive version (of the hundreds
available) of any particular *good seller* bit of 'thrasher' classical music
is necessarily the best...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Rob
wrote:
(Huge snip)

I would say that I would prefer the copyright laws to be such that if
someone has 'bought' the right to control/make copies then that right
depends on them actually showing they *are* willing to do so.

As far as recording are concerned, the recording company has the right to
determine the number of pressings. This gives them the right to leave
some recordings unissued. Qty=0.

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

"Iain M Churches" wrote


Interesting comment. What makes a 'better label'....???

As far as classical labels are concerned, it means
a company with conductors and orchestras that have a
high reputation internationally.

Regretfully, the Maidenhead Symphonia is not on this list:-)


I have no problems with the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra's
performance of *all* the Mahler symphonies I have on Naxos.

Excellent. That means you find them good value for money.
I wonder how they compare with the versions by Sir George Solti
conducting the LSO?



Interestingly, if you compare a classical recording on a cheap
and a full price label, you will sometimes wonder if you are
listening to the same piece of music.


Sure, but that doesn't mean the most expensive version (of the hundreds
available) of any particular *good seller* bit of 'thrasher' classical
music is necessarily the best...

It's all down to interpretation.

Iain

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

"Iain M Churches" wrote


Interesting comment. What makes a 'better label'....???

As far as classical labels are concerned, it means
a company with conductors and orchestras that have a
high reputation internationally.

Regretfully, the Maidenhead Symphonia is not on this list:-)


I have no problems with the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra's
performance of *all* the Mahler symphonies I have on Naxos.

Excellent. That means you find them good value for money.


Yes, but 'comfortably affordable' and lack of 'rip-off factor' was probably
a little bit more to do with it...


I wonder how they compare with the versions by Sir George Solti
conducting the LSO?


If you can't rent them from your local library, I know of one other legal,
'MI approved' way you can find out....!! :-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
. ..


From a few feet? You need to be more discerning that that:-)

I am, mine was the real one... ;-)
Thank God foir that:-)

Go to Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, Tallinn, Vilna, Moscow,
St Petersburg, you will find nothing but counterfeit CDs in most record
shops. It's a huge multi-million business. In KL, they have one of each
CD on the stand, and then burn you a clone, and colour copy the inlay
card while you wait.

OK. All I can say to that is 'As ye sow, so shall ye reap...'
I am pretty sure if you were on the other side of the fence, and
were the one being cheated, then your outlook would change.

But, it may be that your stance is just to generate a good
discussion. That's fine too. It's working:-)



Very few people can differentiate between a
genuine and counterfeit CD.

I disagree but irrelevant anyway...

Even experts find it extremely difficult. The packaging is usually
flawed in some way - which is a clue.


OK, fine. Note that I don't *know* from personal experience - the only
*certain* bootleg I have is a record I bought from eBay....

eBay is full of them. 5000 offers were "withdrawn" from E.Bay UK last
year. That is probably only the tip of the iceberg. I have bought four
counterfeit CD's in the past year, and one bootleg. In all cases, the
vendor claimed total innocence. One refunded the cost of the
CD (a James Taylor rarity!) and postage, plus a fiver for goodwill.
One could make a profit at buying and returning counterfeits

Sure. No-one inside the MI (including you) wants to consider there may hve
been a better way than *greed*....

The problem is that you must regard the industry as an entity, and not
judge it by the sales of just a few records. There are many recording, like
classical works that are very expensive to make, and have slow sales.
Many recordings, including a huge percentage of pop records don't
reach the break-even figure.


And the way consumerism works is that if summat is too expensive (or
deemed to be overpriced) then it will get ripped off - that's the way of
the world. Your own cited examples demonstrate just how much of a market
there is for 'knock offs'....

People only by these counterfeit CDs because they are so cheap,

Producing records is (presumably) pleasant and easy work

It is indeed pleasant work - but involves very long hours, and much
dedication. You can't knock of at 1700 because there's something
good on 'telly:-))

(nothing to plough, nothing to lift and haul), it's also very rewarding
(while stifling a lot of real talent, I gather).

Many hopeful artists make no money at all, and the record company
meets the loss on poor sales. This is of course counterbalanced by
good sales on other recordings.

Salaries as far as musicians and recording staff are concerned
are appropriate for the level of skills required. It's a lot more
involved than most people think:-)

A very pretty young female journalist, with short skirt and very
sharp pencil, visiting Decca once asked me "How many album
do you record in a day?"

Interesting that the strongest defenders of such an obviously flawed
system in this group are those that are connected and derived financial
benefit from it, isn't it?

Not surprising. That's how we make a living.

I've said it a thousand times - pitch a music CD (*any* music CD) at say
1.99 a go and work back from that in terms of payments/royalties or
whatever and this whole piracy thing would melt away under the heading of
'who can be arsed?' but that wouldn't suit the MI at all would it?

It's like asking the breweries to produce good beer at 1p per pint, or
farmers to sell prime beef at 50p/kilo :-))


Iain