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Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
Patrick Turner wrote: Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia. This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs for which he is willing to pay in time and effort. The significant thing is that I don't see those expensive transformer designs ripped off by the Chinese and offered for sale in the West. (He asked me once if he could protect his designs in China and I told him not to bother trying because the effort would fail.) The reason is clearly that the price of a proper transformer will be too high, so that people will say they're saving too few bucks to risk a Chinese transformer, and buy the known-good brand instead. Thus, at the quality end of the market, a Chinese product isn't necessarily going to be all that significantly cheaper after factoring in the cost of the skills and time to get it up to the best standard. Don't bother searching for cheap OPTs made in china. There are none to be had that are any good. A quick glance at the map will show you why. It costs to ship iron; it costs to ship bulk. Even with the cheap Chinese labour, to make up for the carriage they have to cheapen the entire thing, inevitably making the transformer smaller for less weight and bulk, and therefore less capable. Thus far the problem for the DIYer, who usually buys at the end of a very short distribution chain. (For instance, Lundahl transformers are such good value for money because you can buy direct from the factory, or via a single middleman.) The problem for the Western amp manufacturer is different, at least at the low end of the market. That cheap labour, and other quality savings, in China is multiplied every time another middleman appears in the chain. So a Chinese complete amp can cost forty per cent of price of a cheap amp from the Western manufacturer. In the eyes of the less discriminating consumer (probably new to tube amps) the price difference is vastly larger than the quality difference. (1) That in turns broadens the market to people who before could not afford a luxury item, which in turns makes the position of the Western manufacturer worse because he is set up for expensive niche market manufacture, while the Chinese are mass market manufacturers. I expect this spiral to continue and deepen, until in a few years when the Western manufacturers have been driven out of business or at least out of starter tube amps, the Chinese will use their low-end base to start creeping upwards. But I don't see why that is a problem for you, Patrick. Your typical customer always wanted something better and always will. What will happen is merely that the niche makers, like you, will benefit because the Conrad Johnsons and ARCs, having lost their starter market, will have to up the prices of their best gear to stay in business, so making the niche makers more competitive and even more desirable. It is a mistake for you always to be whining about costs. You should talk about quality instead. Andre Jute (1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good quality amp. It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion. |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tubeamps
Andre Jute wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia. This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs for which he is willing to pay in time and effort. You are right about all this. By "out of asia", I generally meant China, Taiwan, Singapre, Thailand, but maybe not Japan which developed excellence above the western competion to create a market after the devastation of WW2. I have had occasinal emails from ppl in China wanting orders for transformers, so I say go to my website, and wind me ONE sample of OPT No1, and send one to me to test. They never speak to me after that. I use neat layer wound coils with insulation layers between each layer where a specifically accurate number of turns is placed. I have never found anyone anywhere who understands exactly what i want. I have made many local so called specialist winding company reps spew up when i dictate to them what i want. They always try to use random turns, less insulation and iron, so its so far always ended with me sending a curt email telling them they don't know how to wind transformers. They all hate ppl like me wanting some really hard thing to do that takes a guy all day to wind, with accurate turn counts, NO crossed over turns, well impregnated, insulated, and maybe 34 separate P&S windings each with two ends, and all terninated properly on a board with turrets or some other proper method. I like to be able to make a few amps rather than none and still have a not to high a price, so I learnt all about trannies and wind all of my own, thus avoiding having to pay some guy $1,000 for one OPT, then be quite unable to recoup what I have paid for these crucial components. I have never had an OPT failure yet. meanwhile I have had quite a few failed amps with shorted OPTs come my way for repair, including what looks like a nice Japanese Luxman, with not one, but two OPTs which are stuffed and a mains tgranny which hums so bad you hear it a block away; Not all jap stuff is marvelous at all! The significant thing is that I don't see those expensive transformer designs ripped off by the Chinese and offered for sale in the West. The chinese don't quite get it, and won't until there is a real revolution their against the grip of the communist party; when that is junked, maybe some ppl there reall catch on to what real OPTs are about. (He asked me once if he could protect his designs in China and I told him not to bother trying because the effort would fail.) I would have welcomed someone in the world someplace who might addopt my designs and offer them to me for my amps for a reasonable price, but nobody has, and since there is no kudos in copying a design by a little known person such as myself, I have little to worry about. The reason is clearly that the price of a proper transformer will be too high, so that people will say they're saving too few bucks to risk a Chinese transformer, and buy the known-good brand instead. The vast majority of the market for OPTs is those who hate expense, cannot tell quality even if they tripped over on it, and who think Hammond is the bees knees. And yes, the Chinese face a huge prejudice problem, like the prejudice against Japanese cars and goods in 1950. I have no idea if they will lift their game.... And of course if they do make some wonderful thing, middle men try to rip every one off, so I don't give a **** about asian trannies. I doubt I will ever be able to deal honestly with some skilled person in china who winds it how i want it, puts it in a box and sends it to me, without all these middlemen. Notice how there are no chinese contributions to r.a.t? The communist party has limited freedom, has thousands of ppl monitoring what citizends are doing to control economic growth in their favour. Thus, at the quality end of the market, a Chinese product isn't necessarily going to be all that significantly cheaper after factoring in the cost of the skills and time to get it up to the best standard. Don't bother searching for cheap OPTs made in china. There are none to be had that are any good. A quick glance at the map will show you why. It costs to ship iron; it costs to ship bulk. Wait a minute, a Hammond bought from a local importer here charges about $200 aud for something costing USD $60 at the gate from the Hammond factory. To make a Hammond as good as i would wind it would need about 3 hrs extra labout, and $10 worth of materails, and chinese labour is dirt cheap. I'd estimate the canadians at Hammond have vietnamses immigrants slaving to make their product with assisting machines, and Hammond make a profit. Even with the cheap Chinese labour, to make up for the carriage they have to cheapen the entire thing, inevitably making the transformer smaller for less weight and bulk, and therefore less capable. The chinese realize that only mass production in large batches is economical. OPTs for the nit picking audiophile market never makes anyone rich. But If I could buy direct from a sole trader in china and who had access to a delivery network that was efficient and cheap as the system is now between the US and Oz then he could make very nice wages for himself if i paid him USD $150 for and OPT. The material price for a 5Kg OPT is about usd $9 per Kg here in Oz and that's me buying tiny quantities. In china, cost of materials between factories making wire and iron is much cheaper, labour is $2 per day, so factory costs are maybe less than Oz material costs are here for the completed item. But along the way, someone wants more, greed is rampant..... And the ability of an independant sole trader to operate freely into foriegn markets unfetted by communist party regs and rorts is about zero, and then there is the language problem. I will not learn chinese. Thus far the problem for the DIYer, who usually buys at the end of a very short distribution chain. (For instance, Lundahl transformers are such good value for money because you can buy direct from the factory, or via a single middleman.) The problem for the Western amp manufacturer is different, at least at the low end of the market. That cheap labour, and other quality savings, in China is multiplied every time another middleman appears in the chain. So a Chinese complete amp can cost forty per cent of price of a cheap amp from the Western manufacturer. Here in a local hi-fi store there are chinese 40 watt integrated amps with 2 x 6L6 per channel. They sell for aud $2,400 each, about usd $1,800. Maybe someone in china gets usd $200 for making them. In the eyes of the less discriminating consumer (probably new to tube amps) the price difference is vastly larger than the quality difference. (1) That in turns broadens the market to people who before could not afford a luxury item, which in turns makes the position of the Western manufacturer worse because he is set up for expensive niche market manufacture, while the Chinese are mass market manufacturers. I expect this spiral to continue and deepen, until in a few years when the Western manufacturers have been driven out of business or at least out of starter tube amps, the Chinese will use their low-end base to start creeping upwards. Hopefully I will be retired from the business by then. But I don't see why that is a problem for you, Patrick. Your typical customer always wanted something better and always will. You are dead right. There is always a small % who might spend more than the going rate when they have seen what has been done, and had a listen to the product. Some people need a 50 ft yacht to get around the harbour on sundays. They like to have teak decking and brass fittings, and a decent loo. One could always not spend so much, and most people spend a minimum; the majority of any market is the lowest common denominator product, and many companies build their reputation on the flagship models, while the profits come only from their budget models that are generic crap but which have the name. What will happen is merely that the niche makers, like you, will benefit because the Conrad Johnsons and ARCs, having lost their starter market, will have to up the prices of their best gear to stay in business, so making the niche makers more competitive and even more desirable. I raise my hat to ARC and CJ, for their prices give the rest of us a chance. It is a mistake for you always to be whining about costs. You should talk about quality instead. Well I do have to worry about costs, so I can cram as much goody in the amps for the customer. But I don't stand much of a chance to get big and also get rich and maintain the quality because to do that is a team effort, and i should have started at 30, not 52, and been able to attract a team, and capital investment. To get rich, a decision to make say 100 amps has to be made, planned, financed, ppl trained, ppl have to be brought together to market it, and its all too much for one guy.... Halcro is a an Australian success story, because the amp designer had a pal who liked amps and who had succeded with making a fortune with silver and gold mining, and this pal gave his amp maker friend a few mill to get a move on as a sideline effort and it went on on R&D and market research and on novel production quality and travelling around the world with sample amps to get the right sort of reviews. But I once saw a batch of 30 halcro chassis at a local anodizer guy here. They'd get the cheapest guys around to do the work. The guy was good, but the price mattered, meanwhile they sell, their amps for $50,000 a pair.... I am a one man band, and probably nobody thinks any money could be made making retro tube technology. I mainly do what I do because I like it, not because i will ever get rich. Investors want a return on their investments. The history of audio makers in Oz is littered with ppl who have tried and failed, and gone bankrupt. Andre Jute (1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good quality amp. Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well. It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion. We'll be bombarded with sales pitch. Most of my income is from repairing amps; So I don't need to rely on hand crafting. I'd love to make many more amps but a bowl of rice in Oz costs more than in china. Everyone is getting used to paying zilch for everything. I even bought a chinese DVD player for usd $60 18 mths ago after a leg op when i though I'd be watching movies at home but I have not used it yet, since I don't have time since the knees improved. But if it goes wrong, I place it in the bin, and buy another. Remember when CD players first appeared and what they cost? There are some folks who still get their shoes handmade and their suits from a tailor. The price isn't of great importance to them. Patrick Turner. |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote snip interesting observations (1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good quality amp. It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion. OK, I am happy to respond to this post, but it is the only one in the (presumed) thread I have seen (I'm 'ukra only'...). It's a long post, so I'll give you a long reply. By way of 'introduction' and 'explanation' - I am relatively new to 'hifi' and very new to valves - my introduction to them was when I got hold of an Arion Acoustics fully Class A 50 wpc PP passive pre/power amp combo using 5881 valves about 5 years or so ago: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Arion%20Amp.jpg I had been casting about with ss amps 'desperately seeking something' (and not finding it) and when 'finesse' failed to do the trick, I tried 'power' and had ended up with a Parasound HCA1305 (?). This also did not cut the mustard (picture mustard with not even a scratch on it...) and, having become aware of the relative abundance of valves and reading/hearing a lot about them, I decided I wanted to try *glass* for myself. So I dragged the Parasound up to the HiFi Trading Station, Peterborough (UK) and told Little Malcolm there I wanted 'glass - lots of it'!! He grabbed the Parasound and handed me the Arion in a heartbeat - I could tell they were glad to be shot of it (it was a bit heejus and it had been advertised for well over a year to my knowledge) but with 8 x 5881s it certainly had the glass I wanted!! It was a *Paulian Revelation* for me and I have never looked back (at ss) since the moment I switched it on! Anyway, I knew it was probably a bit suspect, so I set (oops) about arranging a 'backup/replacement' in case it went tits up. At this time *any* valve amp was over a 1000 quid in the UK and I had no way of knowing what was good and what wasn't, so despite being 'non technical', I decided to build a kit from World Audio Design: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/kit88/kit88.htm This was (still is) another eye-opener and confirmed that I was most definitely on the right track, so next up was a build from scratch. (WTF - I'd already got the meter and the soldering iron....!! :-) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/trio...de_project.htm My already *open* eyes (ears, actually) were opened still further. This little amp (I call it 'First Time Lucky'!!) was quite astounding and is the favourite of most visitors here. The sound quality is quite sublime, for want of a better word.... That had me thinking about 300Bs (as you do) and I had every intention of building summat again - World Audio Designs were on the verge of bringing out a 300B kit and I was talking with Mark on a regular basis when the Chinese amps started to show up on eBay - or rather, I started noticing them. To cut a long story short, I felt I wanted to try one because I felt then that the 'high end' valve stuff was a bit of a ****-take in the UK pricewise and commercial kits are still not cheap. (I tried to tell Mark to offer 'upgrade later' cosmetic options and take the silly brushed ally and expensive chromed knobs out of the equation!!) But, most of all, I have had no problems with products built in China. (Looked closely at, say, a computer network card lately? - Exquisitely made and costs peanuts!!). Anyway, rather than risk summat too glitzy which might be all 'top show', I bought a Plain Jane German designed/assembled in China Dynavox.... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/dynavox/dynavox.htm .....which was so damn good for the money I promptly bought another one to tweak and compare with the original. But.... What has happened to me during the above palaver is that I have come to appreciate the 'Class A sound' - The Dynavoxes and a pair of Dynaco Mk IIIs I have sound great, but the real magic for me is in the SET and the fully Class A KT88 amp. (Having started, no doubt, with the fully Class A Arion and me not even noticing it....??) So (now it gets a bit more relevant to your post/question)... With WAD's 300B kit disappearing off the radar (did it ever appear?) I found myself looking at the Chinese stuff again with a view to a cheap/affordable 'in' to 300Bs. Thus I grabbed a Bez at silly money (half the price of a kit): http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/bez/bezt3b-3.htm ....and was bowled over (again) by it! Following my usual 'one on and one in the wash' methodology, I then bought another (different) one: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm Which appears to be absolutely fine, once again, but hasn't toppled the Bez from my 'top slot' atm! Now, my take on these Chinese valve amps... For the money they represent an incredible bargain when compared to similar spec. 'Western' products and I would say to anyone who wants to try one 'go ahead but be aware of the risks' - the volume pot on the Bez wents tits up after only a few days and I have yet to see the promised replacement from the eBay seller. Also, the Import Duty must be borne in mind and a considerable sum could be added to the final amount - doesn'r make them less than a bargain though, IMO... (I might add that a friend recently bought an EAR phono stage for the same price as a Chinese amp and it went tits-up in under a fortnight of occasional use!) One thing I said to Mark (WAD) was 'Are these Chinese amps going to hurt WAD?' - he said he thought not, but a friend of mine who is a regular visitor and who had been threatening to build a WAD for a while kit took one look at the Bez (listening to it, obviously) and said 'Blx to that, that's cheaper than a kit - who needs to do the work when you can buy one of these and just *fix* it if it goes wrong?' (He owns Audio Note and Quad valve gear...) I can fully appreciate that the 'Anti Podes' (Pat Turner and Trevor Wilson) may well have seen a lot more crap valve amps coming out of China than we Brits have, but I think there comes a time to stop throwing the baby out with the bath water. To consider that the Chinese are any less likely to be able to 'adopt, adapt and improve' than any other nation (with a vestige of manufacturing/engineering left) is disingenuous at the very least. I hafta say, the words 'sour' and 'grapes' spring to mind when I see Chinese audio products summarily dismissed in the manner they are betimes, by one or two individuals who (unsurprisingly) have commercial connections to the audio industry...... As a simple *punter* all I can say is that, at the price, they do offer an affordable 'in' to valves generally (and triodes in particular) and if people follow my path the high end stuff will ultimately benefit - I have no intention of buying any more Chinese Cheepies (I've actually bought four of them, not three) and am considering building (not buying - no way) summat a bit 'top quality' in the new year. Probably 300Bs again - like the Japanese, I have no need for a behemoth 'room heater' and 'delicacy/tone/imaging/clarity/detail/realism' are more important to me than *dynamics*. Asitappens, I am currently more interested in matching speakers to the anps I've already got than exploring more amps: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/titl...20speakers.htm Specifically, as far as the trannies are concerned, all I can say is I wouldn't really be able to tell, but that the amps all seem to have plenty of truly massive iron in them which looks plain but pretty well made - well up the Hammonds I have in the 2A3 SET (in appearance if nothing else). It needs to be borne in mind that without a large wad (oops again) to spend, valves in the UK have been pretty much too 'exclusive' for many until the Chinese stuff started to appear and at least 3 or 4 people I know/correspond with have followed suit and now own the Dynavox amps. All of them are very pleased with them and there have been no failures so far. One here is currently auditioning my 'spare' Dynavox and comparing it with a very respectable 'midfi' ss amp - so far he hasn't dismissed it...?? To summarise: I have no axe to grind - I'm not 'in the industry', I don't say the cheap Chinese amps *outperform* more costly 'Western' amps, I don't say that they will never fail, I have never heard a truly expensive valve amp (and probably never will), the transformers are at least very heavy and the sound quality of these amps (on various speakers) is as good as I have ever heard and, more importantly, is as good as others seem to have heard ever here, apparently....?? I'm very much in favour of the cheap amps (Chinese or otherwise) as I believe they will attract more people to try valves and that has to be a Good Thing in my book - the 'pressure' on rare, NOS stuff is there already anyway and it's better for all to have an arcane and fragile industry thriving/growing/surviving on the increased business from *new blood* than having it disappear completely - no? And, just to bugger it all up, I would finally say that if I could get the 'same sound' from an ss amp I wouldn't rule one out on the 'convenience' front, but as that hasn't *anywhere near* happened yet (up to and including Krell auditions) I don't lose any sleep over it.... There. That's it! All done now! Carry on as you were... (Hope some of this was useful and it wasn't too boring...??? :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tubeamps
Patrick Turner wrote: Andre Jute wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia. This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs for which he is willing to pay in time and effort. You are right about all this. First time I've actually seen Jute post anything of consequence. *And* ON_TOPIC .. And actually sensible ! Goodness !!!!! Good to see you're not *all* hot air Andre. ( I hope this wasn't the work of that ghost writer of course ) Graham |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Patrick Turner" wrote Andre Jute (1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good quality amp. Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well. Oi! I heard that! Listen Patrick, me old china (oops) I don't *brag* about anything - I express my own (usually fairly understated) opinions and reinforce them, when I can, with the opinions of others who have been here to see.hear what I'm up to. If I say 'best ever' about anything it's up to the reader to make his own mind up what that may or may not mean in the real world. I don't subscribe to RAT (way too clicky for my taste) and only responded to André's crosspost *by invitation* (note that my first reply is timed only ONE MINUTE later than your own response) and I also don't make 'Brit' noises in Australian newsgroups.... Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of ordinary audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have done is explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share my findings for free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen different people (half of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them - also for free, I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.) So shoot me, why don'tcha? Who knows, one of them might end up buying one of your amps as a result - will I get any commission? (Don't even bother to answer that....) It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion. We'll be bombarded with sales pitch. ??? Who's *selling* anything - I don't give a FF what happens (or doesn't happen) after I have stated an opinion or shared information that I have paid for out of my own pocket to get. You are the 'professional' here and your posts in ukra are a contuinuing, whining tirade against your own *competition* and your inability to cope with it. You want to sell more amps? Then get off your arse and do what everyone else has to - promote them, advertise them, go to audio fairs and demonstrate them. Loan a few out to 'prospects', send 'em to magazines and get them reviewed. Put a few on eBay and take the hits that others are prepare to do, to to get things moving! As you say yourself: Audio History is littered with similarly arrogant 'cottage industrials' who went down the tubes because the world *didn't* beat a path to their doors.... (Luckily, we in ukra didn't get to hear about it all, chapter and verse...) Now, talk's cheap (nowhere more so than in Usenet) so I'll give you a real life experience of mine: I started a Builder's Merchants from scratch (that's a blend of supplier and banker, for those who don't know the difference between a 'shop' and a 'merchant' - IOW, the financial risks are enormous) and after a while opened up a materials yard within a mile of a well-established competitor, a branch of a huge (RMC) chain, asitappens. Anyway, I soon got politely invited for coffee by the manager of that branch and was patronisingly* told what I may/need do (and not do) etc. etc.... Within 18 months I had shut him down... (Same thing with a fleet of lorries a couple of years later, when one of my regular suppliers 'went direct' the one time....) Now, you go do the same with those inscrutable Chinamen and come and tell us how you got on. 'Til then, have the courtesy to allow us *hobbyist Brits* our own opinions in our own *hobbyist Brit* newsgroup, however much they may stick up your nose..... *I get a lot of that - even in here! (I 'smile' too much!! :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote snip interesting observations (1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good quality amp. It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion. OK, I am happy to respond to this post, but it is the only one in the (presumed) thread I have seen (I'm 'ukra only'...). It's a long post, so I'll give you a long reply. By way of 'introduction' and 'explanation' - I am relatively new to 'hifi' and very new to valves - my introduction to them was when I got hold of an Arion Acoustics fully Class A 50 wpc PP passive pre/power amp combo using 5881 valves about 5 years or so ago: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Arion%20Amp.jpg I had been casting about with ss amps 'desperately seeking something' (and not finding it) and when 'finesse' failed to do the trick, I tried 'power' and had ended up with a Parasound HCA1305 (?). This also did not cut the mustard (picture mustard with not even a scratch on it...) and, having become aware of the relative abundance of valves and reading/hearing a lot about them, I decided I wanted to try *glass* for myself. So I dragged the Parasound up to the HiFi Trading Station, Peterborough (UK) and told Little Malcolm there I wanted 'glass - lots of it'!! He grabbed the Parasound and handed me the Arion in a heartbeat - I could tell they were glad to be shot of it (it was a bit heejus and it had been advertised for well over a year to my knowledge) but with 8 x 5881s it certainly had the glass I wanted!! It was a *Paulian Revelation* for me and I have never looked back (at ss) since the moment I switched it on! Anyway, I knew it was probably a bit suspect, so I set (oops) about arranging a 'backup/replacement' in case it went tits up. At this time *any* valve amp was over a 1000 quid in the UK and I had no way of knowing what was good and what wasn't, so despite being 'non technical', I decided to build a kit from World Audio Design: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/kit88/kit88.htm This was (still is) another eye-opener and confirmed that I was most definitely on the right track, so next up was a build from scratch. (WTF - I'd already got the meter and the soldering iron....!! :-) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/trio...de_project.htm My already *open* eyes (ears, actually) were opened still further. This little amp (I call it 'First Time Lucky'!!) was quite astounding and is the favourite of most visitors here. The sound quality is quite sublime, for want of a better word.... That had me thinking about 300Bs (as you do) and I had every intention of building summat again - World Audio Designs were on the verge of bringing out a 300B kit and I was talking with Mark on a regular basis when the Chinese amps started to show up on eBay - or rather, I started noticing them. To cut a long story short, I felt I wanted to try one because I felt then that the 'high end' valve stuff was a bit of a ****-take in the UK pricewise and commercial kits are still not cheap. (I tried to tell Mark to offer 'upgrade later' cosmetic options and take the silly brushed ally and expensive chromed knobs out of the equation!!) But, most of all, I have had no problems with products built in China. (Looked closely at, say, a computer network card lately? - Exquisitely made and costs peanuts!!). Anyway, rather than risk summat too glitzy which might be all 'top show', I bought a Plain Jane German designed/assembled in China Dynavox.... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/dynavox/dynavox.htm ....which was so damn good for the money I promptly bought another one to tweak and compare with the original. But.... What has happened to me during the above palaver is that I have come to appreciate the 'Class A sound' - The Dynavoxes and a pair of Dynaco Mk IIIs I have sound great, but the real magic for me is in the SET and the fully Class A KT88 amp. (Having started, no doubt, with the fully Class A Arion and me not even noticing it....??) So (now it gets a bit more relevant to your post/question)... With WAD's 300B kit disappearing off the radar (did it ever appear?) I found myself looking at the Chinese stuff again with a view to a cheap/affordable 'in' to 300Bs. Thus I grabbed a Bez at silly money (half the price of a kit): http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/bez/bezt3b-3.htm ...and was bowled over (again) by it! Following my usual 'one on and one in the wash' methodology, I then bought another (different) one: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm Which appears to be absolutely fine, once again, but hasn't toppled the Bez from my 'top slot' atm! Now, my take on these Chinese valve amps... For the money they represent an incredible bargain when compared to similar spec. 'Western' products and I would say to anyone who wants to try one 'go ahead but be aware of the risks' - the volume pot on the Bez wents tits up after only a few days and I have yet to see the promised replacement from the eBay seller. Also, the Import Duty must be borne in mind and a considerable sum could be added to the final amount - doesn'r make them less than a bargain though, IMO... (I might add that a friend recently bought an EAR phono stage for the same price as a Chinese amp and it went tits-up in under a fortnight of occasional use!) One thing I said to Mark (WAD) was 'Are these Chinese amps going to hurt WAD?' - he said he thought not, but a friend of mine who is a regular visitor and who had been threatening to build a WAD for a while kit took one look at the Bez (listening to it, obviously) and said 'Blx to that, that's cheaper than a kit - who needs to do the work when you can buy one of these and just *fix* it if it goes wrong?' (He owns Audio Note and Quad valve gear...) I can fully appreciate that the 'Anti Podes' (Pat Turner and Trevor Wilson) may well have seen a lot more crap valve amps coming out of China than we Brits have, but I think there comes a time to stop throwing the baby out with the bath water. To consider that the Chinese are any less likely to be able to 'adopt, adapt and improve' than any other nation (with a vestige of manufacturing/engineering left) is disingenuous at the very least. I hafta say, the words 'sour' and 'grapes' spring to mind when I see Chinese audio products summarily dismissed in the manner they are betimes, by one or two individuals who (unsurprisingly) have commercial connections to the audio industry...... As a simple *punter* all I can say is that, at the price, they do offer an affordable 'in' to valves generally (and triodes in particular) and if people follow my path the high end stuff will ultimately benefit - I have no intention of buying any more Chinese Cheepies (I've actually bought four of them, not three) and am considering building (not buying - no way) summat a bit 'top quality' in the new year. Probably 300Bs again - like the Japanese, I have no need for a behemoth 'room heater' and 'delicacy/tone/imaging/clarity/detail/realism' are more important to me than *dynamics*. Asitappens, I am currently more interested in matching speakers to the anps I've already got than exploring more amps: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/titl...20speakers.htm Specifically, as far as the trannies are concerned, all I can say is I wouldn't really be able to tell, but that the amps all seem to have plenty of truly massive iron in them which looks plain but pretty well made - well up the Hammonds I have in the 2A3 SET (in appearance if nothing else). It needs to be borne in mind that without a large wad (oops again) to spend, valves in the UK have been pretty much too 'exclusive' for many until the Chinese stuff started to appear and at least 3 or 4 people I know/correspond with have followed suit and now own the Dynavox amps. All of them are very pleased with them and there have been no failures so far. One here is currently auditioning my 'spare' Dynavox and comparing it with a very respectable 'midfi' ss amp - so far he hasn't dismissed it...?? To summarise: I have no axe to grind - I'm not 'in the industry', I don't say the cheap Chinese amps *outperform* more costly 'Western' amps, I don't say that they will never fail, I have never heard a truly expensive valve amp (and probably never will), the transformers are at least very heavy and the sound quality of these amps (on various speakers) is as good as I have ever heard and, more importantly, is as good as others seem to have heard ever here, apparently....?? I'm very much in favour of the cheap amps (Chinese or otherwise) as I believe they will attract more people to try valves and that has to be a Good Thing in my book - the 'pressure' on rare, NOS stuff is there already anyway and it's better for all to have an arcane and fragile industry thriving/growing/surviving on the increased business from *new blood* than having it disappear completely - no? And, just to bugger it all up, I would finally say that if I could get the 'same sound' from an ss amp I wouldn't rule one out on the 'convenience' front, but as that hasn't *anywhere near* happened yet (up to and including Krell auditions) I don't lose any sleep over it.... There. That's it! All done now! Carry on as you were... (Hope some of this was useful and it wasn't too boring...??? :-) Naw, not boring at all. In fact, thanks for the full reply. One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. The rest is history. Not a dissimilar experience to yours. I also have Arion 5881, an Adonis I built. Andre Jute |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Graham |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
Keith G wrote:
Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well. Oi! I heard that! is it me Keith or does patrick just talk rubbish ? none of what he says about you is true |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote in (Hope some of this was useful and it wasn't too boring...??? :-) Naw, not boring at all. In fact, thanks for the full reply. You're welcome - needless to say, I took the opportunity to make a point or two for the benefit of *one or two* in ukra. My 2A3 SET webpage has garnered no less than 4 'inspirationals' from email correspondents so far and I have a similar string of people atm who are getting piffed up to try their hand at FR speakers. We keep in touch and swap information and pix. (Wot else are like-minded hobbyists expected to do?) My finest effort to date has been to 'mentor' (OK - 'blind leading the blind' :-) a chap in Brussels from *never* having picked up a soldering iron to knocking this out this little beauty just before Christmas: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Zuheyr's%20ANkit.JPG (Only took us **34** days.....!!! :-))) Also note his 'Dynavox' (same thing, badged 'Audio Institute'): http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Zuheyr's%20Dynavox.JPG (Trust me, he's like a dog with 22 dicks at a) the amp anyway and b) having built it himself!) Now, if that ain't contributing to my *hobby* in a constructive way, I don't know what TF is....??? (Which is why I get a bit ticked off when people like Pat start ****ing in my ear..... ;-) One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. The rest is history. :-) Not a dissimilar experience to yours. I also have Arion 5881, an Adonis I built. My Arion was a 'Tycho' 2 piece 'one off' passive pre/power amp with its own volume control (Ser. No. 00016, IIRC...) - since when a volume pot is a sine qua non on my power amps. I had a Cambridge Audio P50, Philips GA 212 (?) with an Ortofon cart and AR 4xa speakers back in the 70's, then got silly busy (firms, family, misbehaviour etc..) and didn't get back into *listening to music* until I (early) retired about 7/8/9 years ago. I think, like a lot of others I have corresponded with recently, I didn't/don't like the 'modern sound' at all and couldn't get it sorted at all until I clicked twice - vinyl and valves, in that order.... I even get emails from Americans who are struggling to find the *very same kit* as that which they had a couple/three decades ago...!! (Plus ca change.... :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Ooh, that's a bit *narrow* innit? I haven't heard a lot of B&O gear, but what I have sounded pretty damn good to me....??? |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
" Dave xxxx" wrote in message .uk... Keith G wrote: Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well. Oi! I heard that! is it me Keith or does patrick just talk rubbish ? none of what he says about you is true :-) Cheque's in the post Dave!! :-) Pat's alright mostly - he's just got a lot of Sinophobic Steam to let off. I don't mind up 'til the point he becomes just another 'auslander' telling us pore Brits what to do. It's 'geographical' - mebbe we'd be the same if we were professional amp builders getting bombed with a lot of cheapo French amps...!! :-P |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Ooh, that's a bit *narrow* innit? Poopie's a fat guy. He'd have trouble fitting through the hole in the ozone. *Envy* is probably more like it. The way things work with these stalkers, of which Poopie is only the latest, is that whatever I say, they say is wrong. (Or even more entertainingly, whatever I do or did they deny I ever did, then claim they can do it better. We had a lovely example in the last few days, with Pinkerton denying that I did a heroic journey but nonetheless promising to beat -- in his little hatchback! -- a time I set at half his age in a huge V8 showroom racer, and then having to backpedal furiously when he discovered the length and nature of the journey, entirely unsuitable for a fellow pushing 60, or for his twee little shopping trolley.) If I attacked B&O as overpriced crap, Poopie would be in here hotly defending B&O and abusing me as an ignoramus. Pay no heed. I haven't heard a lot of B&O gear, but what I have sounded pretty damn good to me....??? I had a B&O turntable with a little tube amp built in when I was a student; it was superb. (I dreamed of playing the guitar like Andres Segovia.) I replaced that with ESL and Quad II when I could afford it. History repeats itself. Andre Jute |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Ooh, that's a bit *narrow* innit? I haven't heard a lot of B&O gear, but what I have sounded pretty damn good to me....??? It's nothing special frankly. Clever marketing though. Graham |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in (Hope some of this was useful and it wasn't too boring...??? :-) Naw, not boring at all. In fact, thanks for the full reply. You're welcome - needless to say, I took the opportunity to make a point or two for the benefit of *one or two* in ukra. My 2A3 SET webpage has garnered no less than 4 'inspirationals' from email correspondents so far An asirant writer who wanted me to give him introductions, a total stranger, wrote to me once that reading my book "Writing a Thriller" "was the most seminal experience of my life". I wrote back asking, "Including your wedding night?" and didn't hear from him again... and I have a similar string of people atm who are getting piffed up to try their hand at FR speakers. We keep in touch and swap information and pix. (Wot else are like-minded hobbyists expected to do?) My finest effort to date has been to 'mentor' (OK - 'blind leading the blind' :-) a chap in Brussels from *never* having picked up a soldering iron to knocking this out this little beauty just before Christmas: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Zuheyr's%20ANkit.JPG (Only took us **34** days.....!!! :-))) Nice. There is no point in hurrying a kit. You pay for he pleasure of building it as much as for the design and the components. Also note his 'Dynavox' (same thing, badged 'Audio Institute'): http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Zuheyr's%20Dynavox.JPG (Trust me, he's like a dog with 22 dicks at a) the amp anyway and b) having built it himself!) Now, if that ain't contributing to my *hobby* in a constructive way, I don't know what TF is....??? (Which is why I get a bit ticked off when people like Pat start ****ing in my ear..... ;-) One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. The rest is history. :-) Not a dissimilar experience to yours. I also have Arion 5881, an Adonis I built. My Arion was a 'Tycho' 2 piece 'one off' passive pre/power amp with its own volume control (Ser. No. 00016, IIRC...) One-off? Then it must be the show amp that was shown in one of the magazines a few years ago. I used to know the successive owners of Arion slightly and I remember thinking when I saw that, What the devil are these guys up to moving that far upmarket? If it doesn't sell it will be a big bite out of their business. - since when a volume pot is a sine qua non on my power amps. I had a Cambridge Audio P50, Philips GA 212 (?) with an Ortofon cart and AR 4xa speakers back in the 70's, then got silly busy (firms, family, misbehaviour etc..) and didn't get back into *listening to music* until I (early) retired about 7/8/9 years ago. I think, like a lot of others I have corresponded with recently, I didn't/don't like the 'modern sound' at all and couldn't get it sorted at all until I clicked twice - vinyl and valves, in that order.... I even get emails from Americans who are struggling to find the *very same kit* as that which they had a couple/three decades ago...!! I feel for them. I have it: Quad II and first-series ESL, such as I gave to the servants forty years ago because I wanted something with more oomph for parties. Young people can be very stupid... (Plus ca change.... :-) Kids cannot even hear that my ESL63 sound better with my gear (either tubes or solid state) than an iPod plugged into a computer... Andre Jute |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote I had a B&O turntable with a little tube amp built in when I was a student; it was superb. Well, call me stoopid, but I'd take that in a heartbeat.... (I dreamed of playing the guitar like Andres Segovia.) I dreamed of playing like Philip John Lee and actually conversed with him last year! I replaced that with ESL and Quad II when I could afford it. History repeats itself. "Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it..." (George Santayana, 1863-1952) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote My 2A3 SET webpage has garnered no less than 4 'inspirationals' from correspondents so far An asirant writer who wanted me to give him introductions, a total stranger, wrote to me once that reading my book "Writing a Thriller" "was the most seminal experience of my life". I wrote back asking, "Including your wedding night?" and didn't hear from him again... :-) I get a little mention on Steve Creswell's excellent webpage: http://homepage.mac.com/scress1958/D...toAlbum25.html (He made a much better job of the amp than I did!! :-) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Zuheyr's%20ANkit.JPG (Only took us **34** days.....!!! :-))) Nice. There is no point in hurrying a kit. You pay for he pleasure of building it as much as for the design and the components. Sure and he has made a splendid job of it. (I got nearly 700 pix of the entire process - drove me nutz at times!! :-) My Arion was a 'Tycho' 2 piece 'one off' passive pre/power amp with its own volume control (Ser. No. 00016, IIRC...) One-off? Then it must be the show amp that was shown in one of the magazines a few years ago. I used to know the successive owners of Arion slightly and I remember thinking when I saw that, What the devil are these guys up to moving that far upmarket? If it doesn't sell it will be a big bite out of their business. Arion Acoustics were based in Northern Ireland and went bust in 1997. I spoke to someone in NI who seemed to know a lot (???) about the amp and who stocked spares for them (??? again...?? ;-) He said the amp was built specially for a doctor in the Peterborough area; the scallies at the Peterborough shop told me it 'had been built for a local doctor who got rid when one of his kids burnt themself on it', so that story kinda held up. (It used to get hotter'n hell!). It got to the stage where I could see a resistor alongside one of the valve bases glowing red when it was running and I didn't fancy to try and fettle it (early days and a myriad of little bits and pieces in it - 8 sodding power valves!), so I flogged it to a chap in Aberdeen with a hundred quid off for him to take it to Phil Ramsey at Bluebell Audio to give it a blow through - which he did. (Cost the geezer about 120 quid including new valves, so I wasn't far off). Phil said the amp was a *beaut* but agreed that it was too tricky for me to fiddle with! Kids cannot even hear that my ESL63 sound better with my gear (either tubes or solid state) than an iPod plugged into a computer... The Music/Computer Industries are *banking* on it.... OK, that's me - a *handcrafted* Spag Bol I've been working on is at the very epitome of 'readiness' right now, so off I go!! :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: OK, that's me - a *handcrafted* Spag Bol I've been working on is at the very epitome of 'readiness' right now, so off I go!! :-) http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Keith G wrote: OK, that's me - a *handcrafted* Spag Bol I've been working on is at the very epitome of 'readiness' right now, so off I go!! :-) http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html Excellent pics, excellent dishes. Just a coupler points: "nouvelle cuisine anorexics will be queeing up" ....is missing an essential vowel. (Otherwise there is a degree of ambiguity in the meaning!! ;-) "steamed carrot (good for night vision)" :-) Contrary to popular belief, is not entirely incorrect, asitappens: "Rumours were circulated that British RAF pilots were fed carrots to help them see in the dark. The truth was however, the story was invented so the Germans would not be alerted to the fact that the allies had radar." "Like all good stories it does have some basis in fact - Carrots are high in beta-carotene (sometimes shown as ?-Carotene). This is converted into Vitamin A in the body (also known as retinol). A deficiency of this vitamin can cause night blindness and in more extreme cases can cause a malfunction of the tear ducts which can lead to blindness. A single carrot can contain as much as 750 micrograms of vitamin A and the RNI (recommended nutrient intake) is 700 and 600 micrograms respectively for an adult man and woman." "Bolognaise sauce, out of a bottle or homemade I care not, is not permitted in my house." My (Spag) Bol sauce is most definitely *not* out of a bottle - the only 'fake thing' in the whole dish is just one Oxo cube, I'll trouble you to know!! (At any rate, the Spag Bol would be very plain-tasting without it..!! :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
Keith G wrote: "Andre Jute" wrote in message oups.com... Keith G wrote: OK, that's me - a *handcrafted* Spag Bol I've been working on is at the very epitome of 'readiness' right now, so off I go!! :-) http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html Excellent pics, excellent dishes. Just a coupler points: "nouvelle cuisine anorexics will be queeing up" ...is missing an essential vowel. (Otherwise there is a degree of ambiguity in the meaning!! ;-) There are no unintended subtexts in my texts. In fact, I wondered if I could get away with inserting 'it' before 'up' but decided it would spoil the excuse of a slipping finger causing a typo. "steamed carrot (good for night vision)" :-) Contrary to popular belief, is not entirely incorrect, asitappens: "Rumours were circulated that British RAF pilots were fed carrots to help them see in the dark. The truth was however, the story was invented so the Germans would not be alerted to the fact that the allies had radar." "Like all good stories it does have some basis in fact - Carrots are high in beta-carotene (sometimes shown as ?-Carotene). This is converted into Vitamin A in the body (also known as retinol). A deficiency of this vitamin can cause night blindness and in more extreme cases can cause a malfunction of the tear ducts which can lead to blindness. A single carrot can contain as much as 750 micrograms of vitamin A and the RNI (recommended nutrient intake) is 700 and 600 micrograms respectively for an adult man and woman." "Bolognaise sauce, out of a bottle or homemade I care not, is not permitted in my house." My (Spag) Bol sauce is most definitely *not* out of a bottle - the only 'fake thing' in the whole dish is just one Oxo cube, I'll trouble you to know!! (At any rate, the Spag Bol would be very plain-tasting without it..!! :-) I want to know that the mince came from my own butcher, who makes mince in plain public view from prime cuts. The truth is that, with the recent successive scares, and almost having given up red meat anyway to reduce cholesterol, we have now just about given up meat except the occasional pork chop. Fish and fowl do well. Andre Jute |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Keith G" wrote in
: Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of ordinary audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have done is explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share my findings for free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen different people (half of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them - also for free, I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.) Noted...a good dinner would go down nicely with my cup of tea :-) I've heard all but one of Keith's amps and to me they are all better than anything I could afford for the same price or sound in the UK shops. I like the valve sound and without the Chinese effect I wouldn't have been able to afford a valve amp at all, but having said that I've currently got a German Dynavox amp and an American Bellari phono stage. I'm happy with these at the moment but they've certainly started me on the long path to "greater" things. Phil |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Phil North" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in : Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of ordinary audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have done is explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share my findings for free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen different people (half of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them - also for free, I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.) Noted...a good dinner would go down nicely with my cup of tea :-) OK, liver and bacon in thick onion gravy with mashed pertater, fresh, thin sliced runner beans and a few tinned garden peas (for diversity/interest) next time then? :-) I've heard all but one of Keith's amps and to me they are all better than anything I could afford for the same price or sound in the UK shops. Currys and Dixons? :-) I like the valve sound and without the Chinese effect I wouldn't have been able to afford a valve amp at all, *Bingo!* My point entirely.... I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no idea what a toughie it would be for most people to even get to *hear* a valve amp, never mind buy one at the prices of up to a year or so ago! but having said that I've currently got a German Dynavox amp and an American Bellari phono stage. I'm happy with these at the moment but they've certainly started me on the long path to "greater" things. Go on, 'fess up (you might as well) - it's the *SET* sound you like, isn't it?? :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Andre Jute" wrote "nouvelle cuisine anorexics will be queeing up" ...is missing an essential vowel. (Otherwise there is a degree of ambiguity in the meaning!! ;-) There are no unintended subtexts in my texts. In fact, I wondered if I could get away with inserting 'it' before 'up' but decided it would spoil the excuse of a slipping finger causing a typo. Then the mystery would be is it an 'n' or an 'r' that's missing?? :-) I want to know that the mince came from my own butcher, who makes mince in plain public view from prime cuts. I believe they will even do that in Waitrose....?? The truth is that, with the recent successive scares, and almost having given up red meat anyway to reduce cholesterol, we have now just about given up meat except the occasional pork chop. Fish and fowl do well. Asitappens, I'm not a big meat-eater and would like to go 'veggie' for humanitarian reasons (is that right?) but life without a slice of roast beef or an occasional (weekly) pork chop would be a bit glum. Fish is OK from time to time but I wouldn't miss game or fowl if I never saw it again - apart from the Christmas and Easter turkeys.... |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
On 2 Jan 2006 09:48:29 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:
Keith G wrote: "Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Ooh, that's a bit *narrow* innit? Poopie's a fat guy. He'd have trouble fitting through the hole in the ozone. *Envy* is probably more like it. The way things work with these stalkers, of which Poopie is only the latest, is that whatever I say, they say is wrong. (Or even more entertainingly, whatever I do or did they deny I ever did, then claim they can do it better. We had a lovely example in the last few days, with Pinkerton denying that I did a heroic journey but nonetheless promising to beat -- in his little hatchback! -- a time I set at half his age in a huge V8 showroom racer, and then having to backpedal furiously when he discovered the length and nature of the journey, entirely unsuitable for a fellow pushing 60, or for his twee little shopping trolley.) Feck off, you pompous arse. I certainly do suggest that this 'heroic journey' is just another of your Munchausen fantasies, but I in no way 'backed off', and I was well aware of the nature of the road. BTW, my 'shopping trolley' *is* comprehensively faster than a Falcon GTHO, as anyone but you will happily acknowledge. I realise that you tubies have your heads firmly stuck in very old sand, but there has been a fair bit of progress in fast cars over the past 35 years............. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:40:13 +0000, Pooh Bear
wrote: Andre Jute wrote: One day in 1990 I walked into my study, switched on my B&O which had served me faithfully for a decade, and said, That's a bleeding cold sound, and instead of starting work started looking for a good pair of Quad II amps such as I used to drive my first ESL in the far ago and long ago. Why didn't you say before ? Explains a lot. Did you seriously expect B&O to be the pinnacle of SS amplification ? Jeez ! It's simply 'eye candy' for the rich who know no better. Before making such sweeping generalisations, try listening to the Lab 5 speakers. They are truly high-end, and even good value in that niche market. OTOH, Jute is absolutely correct in what he says about the OPTs on Chinese amplifiers. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
Phil North wrote in
: I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.) At least I purchased fish and chips once :-) -- Cessna172 |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Keith G" wrote in
: One here is currently auditioning my 'spare' Dynavox and comparing it with a very respectable 'midfi' ss amp - so far he hasn't dismissed it...? Nope, and it is being played exclusively now for a week or two to get the Roksan Kandy MkIII out my ears. -- Cessna172 |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote Feck off, you pompous arse. I certainly do suggest that this 'heroic journey' is just another of your Munchausen fantasies, but I in no way 'backed off', and I was well aware of the nature of the road. BTW, my 'shopping trolley' *is* comprehensively faster than a Falcon GTHO, as anyone but you will happily acknowledge. I realise that you tubies have your heads firmly stuck in very old sand, but there has been a fair bit of progress in fast cars over the past 35 years............. But absolutely *no* progress in 'motoring' per se.... ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote Before making such sweeping generalisations, try listening to the Lab 5 speakers. They are truly high-end, and even good value in that niche market. OTOH, Jute is absolutely correct in what he says about the OPTs on Chinese amplifiers. Before making such sweeping generalisations, try actually *listening* to a recent one.... |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Cessna172" wrote in message . 240.12... Phil North wrote in : I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.) At least I purchased fish and chips once :-) You did indeed! :-) (I was only joking - we don't see out guests go hungry here!! ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Keith G" wrote My 2A3 SET webpage has garnered no less than 4 'inspirationals' from email correspondents so far and I have a similar string of people atm who are getting piffed up to try their hand at FR speakers. We keep in touch and swap information and pix. (Wot else are like-minded hobbyists expected to do?) Here's another one this morning: "hi, can i just say first that your web site is brilliant. i want to build my own speakers but just need a little info first. what electrical parts do you acherly need within the speakers? i no you obviously have the speaker cone but what sort of cable do you need inside the speaker and what do you mount on the back of them to plug you amp into them?is it as simple as just 2 cables to connect from the cone to the amp? could you tell me where you get these parts from? thanks alot for you help." They can look a bit dozy like this one.... checks ng for the 'author's name!! ....but they usually end up very pleasant and I get to see pix of the results from time to time!! :-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Cessna172" wrote in message .205... "Keith G" wrote in : One here is currently auditioning my 'spare' Dynavox and comparing it with a very respectable 'midfi' ss amp - so far he hasn't dismissed it...? Nope, and it is being played exclusively now for a week or two to get the Roksan Kandy MkIII out my ears. And don't forget you are on valves that must be getting for at least 6/7 years old!! ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
The consumer grade stereo equipment that is coming from China now, is
****. About the only name worth buying is PIONEER. And that make has DEGRADED much since it was first made in Japan. Yes, the Japanese can make the BEST electronics, equal to any the Germans or USA can make- but they only make it for THEMSELVES. The stuff their companies export anymore, is SECOND CLASS to the stuff they make for their own home high end market. The Japanese make fine tube amps, and even reintroduced the 8-track cartridge in a limited degree to audiophiles there. But not here. The lineup of stereos at your local "Circuit City" looks mighty nice and is cheap enough- most are under $200- but pick one up and look what's inside- CHEAP, ****TY IC power circuits that will BLOW OUT with sustained high volume playback. I bought a complete Technics system back in '86 and had to replace the main power amp IC 2 times so far. The vintage tube and transistor units from 1950-70's era, and a few from the 80's, are a far superior VALUE compared to what's available new now. |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Keith G" wrote in
: "Cessna172" wrote in message .205... "Keith G" wrote in : One here is currently auditioning my 'spare' Dynavox and comparing it with a very respectable 'midfi' ss amp - so far he hasn't dismissed it...? Nope, and it is being played exclusively now for a week or two to get the Roksan Kandy MkIII out my ears. And don't forget you are on valves that must be getting for at least 6/7 years old!! ;-) Wonder if my Roksan will still be working after 8 years? Volume is the problem I think. Last night I listened at high volume settings (for me anyway!), and I started to get a bit of weight and attack to the music. It was far louder than I can normaly listen because everyone wasn't in bed! Is this a limitation with most valve amps? -- Cessna172 |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:45:02 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote Before making such sweeping generalisations, try listening to the Lab 5 speakers. They are truly high-end, and even good value in that niche market. OTOH, Jute is absolutely correct in what he says about the OPTs on Chinese amplifiers. Before making such sweeping generalisations, try actually *listening* to a recent one.... Keith, since your *speakers* don't have any bass, you're not going to notice the problem........... :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:45:02 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote Before making such sweeping generalisations, try listening to the Lab 5 speakers. They are truly high-end, and even good value in that niche market. OTOH, Jute is absolutely correct in what he says about the OPTs on Chinese amplifiers. Before making such sweeping generalisations, try actually *listening* to a recent one.... Keith, since your *speakers* don't have any bass, you're not going to notice the problem........... :-) Surprised to see *you* dismiss my 'Pinkies' so readily!! :-) (I still got my 38 Hz Ruark Paladins... ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps etc... (very long)
"Cessna172" wrote Wonder if my Roksan will still be working after 8 years? The chances of you keeping *any* amp that long are a little slender, are they not....??? Volume is the problem I think. Last night I listened at high volume settings (for me anyway!), and I started to get a bit of weight and attack to the music. It was far louder than I can normaly listen because everyone wasn't in bed! Is this a limitation with most valve amps? Is what a limitation? Volume levels? Your Kandy is what - 120wpc? That amp is *nominally* 40wpc - perhaps some kind soul here will tell us what it really likely to be, with those wooly old 5881s biased at -35V....??? (Don't be suckered in by the old valve vs. ss watt adages - watts are watts. Valve watts are usually *bigger*, but they ain't any *louder* - big difference! ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Keith G" wrote in message
I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no idea what a toughie it would be for most people to even get to *hear* a valve amp, never mind buy one at the prices of up to a year or so ago! Oh Keith, I thought no-one understood. But listen, don't pick on our mascot. Patrick suffers from chronic Davy Crockett Syndrome, and you really shouldn't make fun. He can recite RDH4 backwards, and often does. UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of inferior quality. I'll make you something really good that works. cheers, Ian |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
"Ian Iveson" wrote in message . uk... "Keith G" wrote in message I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no idea what a toughie it would be for most people to even get to *hear* a valve amp, never mind buy one at the prices of up to a year or so ago! Oh Keith, I thought no-one understood. But listen, don't pick on our mascot. Patrick suffers from chronic Davy Crockett Syndrome, and you really shouldn't make fun. He can recite RDH4 backwards, and often does. UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of inferior quality. ??? What makes you think they are inferior? I'm prepared to concede that Pat will/may have seen a lot more dodgy Chinese amps than we have in the UK, but I believe you live in the UK - what *bad* Chinese amps have you seen? It's this 'it's Chinese so it's inferior' bigotry that gets me - I have spent money to *find out* for myself, I suspect a lot of the 'knockers' have never even heard a Chinese amplifier.... (Kills me - it's a fair bet that most/nearly all of the people knocking Chinese gear on Usenet do so on Chinese-built computers!! :-) I'll make you something really good that works. OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? ;-) |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tube amps
I'll make you something really good that works.
OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? Ha ha! Martin -- M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890 Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie |
Why cheap Chinese amps are not the chopping block for high-end tubeamps
Keith G wrote: "Ian Iveson" wrote in message . uk... "Keith G" wrote in message I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no idea what a toughie it would be for most people to even get to *hear* a valve amp, never mind buy one at the prices of up to a year or so ago! Oh Keith, I thought no-one understood. But listen, don't pick on our mascot. Patrick suffers from chronic Davy Crockett Syndrome, and you really shouldn't make fun. He can recite RDH4 backwards, and often does. UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of inferior quality. ??? What makes you think they are inferior? I'm prepared to concede that Pat will/may have seen a lot more dodgy Chinese amps than we have in the UK, but I believe you live in the UK - what *bad* Chinese amps have you seen? It's this 'it's Chinese so it's inferior' bigotry that gets me - I have spent money to *find out* for myself, I suspect a lot of the 'knockers' have never even heard a Chinese amplifier.... (Kills me - it's a fair bet that most/nearly all of the people knocking Chinese gear on Usenet do so on Chinese-built computers!! :-) I'll make you something really good that works. OK if it sounds better than this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm and looks as good, I'll order one - 400 quid OK with you (with valves)...??? I don't think Ian could buy the parts and materials for less than 400quid, or about usd $700. I doubt Sowter could do the 2 OPTs and PT and a choke for less than the 400 quid. But unless otherwise proven, the OPTs and power trannys are probably not great quality. Nice paint on the outside though. Ppl in the know would chuck away the chinese valves and use WE 300B........ Send a thankyou note to the Chinese Communist Party who controls worker wages and conditions. And if wages are usd $2 per day, and half the price is for chinese labour, there is 250 man hours per amp, that's 5 weeks at 50 hrs per week of labour for 1 man. But that just sounds way too much labour in a grimy noisy dirty mass production chinese factory, and I bet no more than 2 man weeks of labour is involved. The rest goes where? CCP? BMW for the boss? I have seen quite a few dodgy tube amps, not all were chinese. Patrick Turner. |
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