On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 +0000, Trevor Wilson burbled:

snip

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency response
AT THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well
that it is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker
cables. After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not sound
level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level matching
also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same common base
line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not the full response
curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room for exotic cables to
prove themselves - if they can.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

"mick" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 +0000, Trevor Wilson burbled:

snip

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency response
AT THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well
that it is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker
cables. After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not sound
level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level matching
also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same common base
line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not the full response
curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room for exotic cables to
prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables DO
sound different.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:57:06 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"mick" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 +0000, Trevor Wilson burbled:

snip

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency response
AT THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well
that it is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker
cables. After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not sound
level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level matching
also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same common base
line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not the full response
curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room for exotic cables to
prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables DO
sound different.

No, they bloody don't. How many times do I have to point out that
cheap computer ribbon cable is a match for any of those unobtainium
wonder cables?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:57:06 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"mick" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 +0000, Trevor Wilson burbled:

snip

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency
response
AT THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well
that it is very easy to expose easily audible differences between
speaker
cables. After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not sound
level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level matching
also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same common base
line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not the full
response
curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room for exotic cables to
prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables DO
sound different.

No, they bloody don't.

**Yes, they do.

How many times do I have to point out that
cheap computer ribbon cable is a match for any of those unobtainium
wonder cables?

**As many times as you wish. However, I know of no cheap computer ribbon
type commercially available speaker cables. Computer ribbon cable,
configured for low inductance IS fancy speaker cable. The ONLY cheap speaker
cables I know of are of the figure 8 variety. If you want to factor in the
cost of manufacturing computer ribbon cables, such that they can provide low
inductance, I suggest that you (personally) would be much better off buying
some low end Kimber cable. Unless, of course, you don't value your time. I
value mine, which is why I don't try servicing my car anymore. My mechanic
does it cheaper and faster than I can.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

But you can't hear the effect of cable inductance or capacitance over a
reasonable length of any standard cable. The value is simply too small to
have an effect at audio frequencies. You *can* hear the difference in
levels at the speaker terminals though, if the feed is switched between
monster cable and bell wire or computer ribbon cable. That's why the
levels need to be matched, and at 2 frequencies to get rid of cables with
daft things like discrete capacitors and inductors built into them to
change their response artificially. Conductors are conductors, only the
loop resistance can make a difference and that can be calibrated out of
the test.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk

"mick" wrote in message
news
But you can't hear the effect of cable inductance or capacitance over a
reasonable length of any standard cable.

**Without specifying the impedance of the load, the length of the cable and
the inductance of the cable, there is NO WAY you can make such a
pronouncement. BTW: I NEVER mentioned (speaker) cable capacitance. It is not
relevant.


The value is simply too small to
have an effect at audio frequencies.

**Oh really? When did you last study electrical theory?

You *can* hear the difference in
levels at the speaker terminals though, if the feed is switched between
monster cable and bell wire or computer ribbon cable.

**Given sufficient differences in resistivity, yes. BTW: Unless the computer
ribbon cable is specifically configured for low inductance, there won't be
much difference in inductance, between all the above cables.

That's why the
levels need to be matched, and at 2 frequencies to get rid of cables with
daft things like discrete capacitors and inductors built into them to
change their response artificially.

**See if you can understand:

Figure 8 cable has the highest inductance of any easily available cable.
Cables like Kimber, Goertz and others have LOW inductance figures. They are
LESS likely to affect the frequency response than figure 8 (zip) cables.


Conductors are conductors, only the
loop resistance can make a difference and that can be calibrated out of
the test.

**Wrong. Go hit the books and study up on electrical theory. After you do,
we can discuss.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:20:31 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"mick" wrote in message
news
But you can't hear the effect of cable inductance or capacitance over a
reasonable length of any standard cable.

**Without specifying the impedance of the load, the length of the cable and
the inductance of the cable, there is NO WAY you can make such a
pronouncement. BTW: I NEVER mentioned (speaker) cable capacitance. It is not
relevant.

The value is simply too small to
have an effect at audio frequencies.

**Oh really? When did you last study electrical theory?

I contunue to do so, and he's right in all but the most extreme
systems.

You *can* hear the difference in
levels at the speaker terminals though, if the feed is switched between
monster cable and bell wire or computer ribbon cable.

**Given sufficient differences in resistivity, yes. BTW: Unless the computer
ribbon cable is specifically configured for low inductance, there won't be
much difference in inductance, between all the above cables.

But of course there's no point in using ribbon cable *unless* you so
configure it - which takes about ten minutes.

That's why the
levels need to be matched, and at 2 frequencies to get rid of cables with
daft things like discrete capacitors and inductors built into them to
change their response artificially.

**See if you can understand:

Figure 8 cable has the highest inductance of any easily available cable.

No, it doesn't. Parallel spaced conductors do, such as standard '300
ohm' antenna feeder (the 300 ohm bit is a dead giveaway if you know
your electrical theory), and of course Naim speaker cable.

Cables like Kimber, Goertz and others have LOW inductance figures. They are
LESS likely to affect the frequency response than figure 8 (zip) cables.

Agreed, but the difference is negligible in most case, and arguably
inaudible in any but the most pathological cases (such as fifty feet
into a 'stat speaker).

Conductors are conductors, only the
loop resistance can make a difference and that can be calibrated out of
the test.

**Wrong. Go hit the books and study up on electrical theory. After you do,
we can discuss.

No, you just keep bleating on about minor *measured* differences,
without ever addressing practical listening tests.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not
sound level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level
matching also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same
common base line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not
the full response curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room
for exotic cables to prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables
DO sound different.

Why would anyone with half a grain of sense buy a cable which altered the
frequency response of the system over plain suitable wire?

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:
He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not
sound level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level
matching also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the
same common base line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to
match, not the full response curve and not via a mic, so there is
plenty of room for exotic cables to prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables
DO sound different.

Why would anyone with half a grain of sense buy a cable which altered
the frequency response of the system over plain suitable wire?

I suppose they might if they wanted a specific change in the response, and
that was a reasonably cheap way to obtain it. However I suspect the real
issue here is when those making/selling/buying the cables claim or imply
any change is for other reasons...

I doubt many people are sold 1000 UKP cables on the basis that it acts much
the same as a tone control which could be obtained for a tenth of the
price, and which could be adjusted in use to suit the user... :-)

Curious, is it not, how 'unpopular' the very idea of 'tone controls' have
become with reviewers, etc...

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not
sound level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level
matching also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same
common base line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not
the full response curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room
for exotic cables to prove themselves - if they can.

**You miss the point. That is EXACTLY how (most) exotic speaker cables
DO sound different.

Why would anyone with half a grain of sense buy a cable which altered the
frequency response of the system over plain suitable wire?

**It is "plain suitable wire" (i.e.: figure 8) which may alter the frequency
response in some systems.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au