Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


Yes, I'm very hip to the 'Zen' of flea-power amps moving serious air with
large, sensitive speakers, myself.

The idea of an arc-welder driving a pair of ironing boards is a bit like
a
V8 motorcar being driven with the handbrake permanently on, in my
book......

Isn't that very *American* - needing 200 watts to do 55 mph....??? :-)

Ah, but my ironing boards are lifting bodies, and can do Mach 5!


Must have fekkin' long wires on 'em then!


Your approach is more like a Sinclair C5, lots of squawking but no
real progress................... :-)


:-)

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so I
could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did go
loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a watt or
two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and amplification, I
tried to separate the two. I thought that some conventional PP ultralinear
with overall feedback amps, would show up mostly what the 'speakers were
doing, as the amps were probably fairly neutral. The bass was quite nice,
extended and smooth, but higher up, I just couldn't get to grips with it. It
all sounded far too squawky, crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if
music was being shouted at me. This is relative of course, to what I am used
to, which to me sounds smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his
'speakers using the PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the
SETs being much more like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were
even more extreme, I really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps
were at least tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith
built, and, if I remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to provide a
solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was too small, and
consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I have
done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to achieve. I
think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low distortion, low
coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound the same. Even
with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the differences are much
smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are trying for accuracy.
Keith obviously wants something that sounds very different, and that's what
he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it obviously gives him pleasure,
and to his credit, he's done most of the work himself rather than just
buying black boxes.


S.

Please send your surplus decency to Stewart Pinkerton -- and pray for his ASS
 

In article .com,
Andre Jute wrote:
My designs get built. And are used and enjoyed. Here for your enjoyment
is The KISS Amp 300B "Ultrafi" proto again, the one the lying scumbag
Pinkerton claims was never built:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg

Crikey. Hope the H&S people don't see that.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

[big snip as I can't comment on the 'sound' of Keith's system for the
obvious reason - never heard it! :-) }

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to
provide a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was
too small, and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side
walls.

FWIW my experience is that both the room and the radiation patterns of the
speakers are crucial for getting a really 'solid and central' image from
mono, and a clear image elsewhere. If the speakers aren't well
pair-matched, that might be the limit, but my experience is that you need a
fairly 'symmetric' room in terms of acoustic and layout for an optimum
image.

[snip]

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to
sound the same.

I would have put that slightly differently. They tend to produce a similar
sound to one another *when playing the same recording/broadcast*. However I
find that another feature of such systems is they make (to my ears) the
*differences* between different recordings/broadcasts easier to hear. Thus
I take this as a sign you are hearing the recording/broadcast.

Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the differences are
much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are trying for
accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very different,
and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it obviously
gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the work
himself rather than just buying black boxes.

Yes. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did
go loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a
watt or two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and
amplification, I tried to separate the two. I thought that some
conventional PP ultralinear with overall feedback amps, would show up
mostly what the 'speakers were doing, as the amps were probably fairly
neutral. The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I
just couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky,
crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at me.
This is relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds
smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his 'speakers using the
PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the SETs being much more
like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were even more extreme, I
really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps were at least
tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith built, and, if I
remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to provide
a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was too small,
and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound
the same. Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the
differences are much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are
trying for accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very
different, and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it
obviously gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the
work himself rather than just buying black boxes.



Hi Serge. That's all pretty fair comment. I would only add in that it was a
fairly trying day for me with Moira at home having to handle a work crisis
on the phone and also query that I thought you actually picked the 'pretty
boy' Chinese 300B amp as the best 'SET' overall...???

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers are
too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns and
Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

The example which showed this best was the brief few moments we spent on the
computer setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...er%20Setup.JPG

....where the voices come straight from the monitor, despite the somewhat
extreme speaker placement! (If had known you weren't 'anti MP3' I would have
picked out a couple of better 256K examples.)

Interestingly, while I don't think the imaging is anything like best myself,
no less than 3 others who have heard it can find nothing particularly wrong
with it...!!?? (I have asked and if they can't see it, I don't point it
out!! ;-)

Needless to say, I don't find the Fostex drivers too 'crunchy' myself - as
you say, it's relative and I'm used to them. In fact, I find 'normal'
speakers quite 'flubbery' now. Might be worth mentioning the FE206Es are not
the *design* drivers for the Jericho boxes - I have fitted them temporarily
to get a general idea. I would like to try Lowthers in them, but I suspect
they would be even further away from your ideal!!

Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Btw, since your visit I have fitted the V15/II to the Aiwa deck and can now
tell you there are *two* music stands falling over in the Lark Ascending
recording!!

Your final comment was also interesting - I hafta say, another little
*fruissance* for me is when I play an LP on this kit (and the music is
*particularly* fine - we never got near it on the day) and I realise I have
built/constructed 75% of the equipment in use at that time!! (Better
demonstration examples here might have been Laurie Anderson's 'Mr
Heartbreak' or 'Strange Angels'...??)

Anyway, an enjoyable (if difficult) day which was very interesting to me -
first time I have had a 'non positive' response to the triode/horn thing
(which is still in the early days with cheapo amps and half-arsed speakers
yet) and my door is still open (by appointment) to anyone else who is
curious!!

(The distinct possibility of a full-on 'Keith's kit is utter ****e' being
reported here does not deter me!! :-))

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:05:12 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On 14 Feb 2006 03:30:55 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

Keith wrote: My problem (or saving grace) is that I accomodate the
change in sound from different items of audio gear very quickly, which
is why I so elicit the opinions of others when the opportunity presents
- I'm interested in what they think, I don't need then to tell me what
I like.......

I hope Keith won't mind my referring to this as typical of higher
Factor A, showing "openness, flexibility, attention to people, ability
to co-operate, adaptability and an easy-going nature". In other posts
I've referred at some length to low Factor A and its association with
engineers as a group.

And it's a fine illustration of how actual high fidelity sound is low
on the list of priorities, getting all empathetic is much more
important. You see, a high factor A doesn't really bring 'openness and
flexibility', just a desperate need to 'fit in', regardless of the
reality of the situation.


Me fit in???

Me??

Ooh, I don't think so.....

;-)

You don't strike me as one of Andy's 'high factor A' guys...... :-)



No, more 'Max Factor', me.....

(Not too much though - just a little blusher and eye-liner and lip gloss on
special occasions... :-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

Serge Auckland wrote:

I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so I
could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

...The bass was quite nice,
extended and smooth, but higher up, I just couldn't get to grips with it. It
all sounded far too squawky, crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if
music was being shouted at me. This is relative of course, to what I am used
to, which to me sounds smooth and natural.

I wonder what the frequency response is like. Some articles about the
Fostex drivers
in Voigt pipes mentioned a hump in the treble and suggested a parallel coil
and capacitor (and possibly a resistor) to flatten the response.

--
Eiron

There's something scary about stupidity made coherent - Tom Stoppard.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did
go loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a
watt or two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and
amplification, I tried to separate the two. I thought that some
conventional PP ultralinear with overall feedback amps, would show up
mostly what the 'speakers were doing, as the amps were probably fairly
neutral. The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I
just couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky,
crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at
me. This is relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds
smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his 'speakers using the
PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the SETs being much
more like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were even more
extreme, I really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps were at
least tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith built,
and, if I remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to
provide a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was
too small, and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side
walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound
the same. Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the
differences are much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers
are trying for accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very
different, and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it
obviously gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the
work himself rather than just buying black boxes.



Hi Serge. That's all pretty fair comment. I would only add in that it was
a fairly trying day for me with Moira at home having to handle a work
crisis on the phone and also query that I thought you actually picked the
'pretty boy' Chinese 300B amp as the best 'SET' overall...???

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

Now you mention it, you may be right. Heard too many SETs that day.


Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers
are too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns
and Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

You may want to try them in the main room one day when Moira's out.

The example which showed this best was the brief few moments we spent on
the computer setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...er%20Setup.JPG

...where the voices come straight from the monitor, despite the somewhat
extreme speaker placement! (If had known you weren't 'anti MP3' I would
have picked out a couple of better 256K examples.)

Interestingly, while I don't think the imaging is anything like best
myself, no less than 3 others who have heard it can find nothing
particularly wrong with it...!!?? (I have asked and if they can't see it,
I don't point it out!! ;-)

Depends what you're used to, some people just don't care about localisation,
they have other priorities, others are perfectly happy with a diffuse image,
they actually prefer it.

Needless to say, I don't find the Fostex drivers too 'crunchy' myself - as
you say, it's relative and I'm used to them. In fact, I find 'normal'
speakers quite 'flubbery' now. Might be worth mentioning the FE206Es are
not the *design* drivers for the Jericho boxes - I have fitted them
temporarily to get a general idea. I would like to try Lowthers in them,
but I suspect they would be even further away from your ideal!!

Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Interesting link. Have you put in the equaliser and impedance matching
network recommended? It would be worth doing as it will smooth out the
frequency response for all amplifiers, especially SETs with their fairly
high output impedance.


Btw, since your visit I have fitted the V15/II to the Aiwa deck and can
now tell you there are *two* music stands falling over in the Lark
Ascending recording!!

Your final comment was also interesting - I hafta say, another little
*fruissance* for me is when I play an LP on this kit (and the music is
*particularly* fine - we never got near it on the day) and I realise I
have built/constructed 75% of the equipment in use at that time!! (Better
demonstration examples here might have been Laurie Anderson's 'Mr
Heartbreak' or 'Strange Angels'...??)

Anyway, an enjoyable (if difficult) day which was very interesting to me -
first time I have had a 'non positive' response to the triode/horn thing
(which is still in the early days with cheapo amps and half-arsed speakers
yet) and my door is still open (by appointment) to anyone else who is
curious!!

Thanks again for the day, and hope Moira doesn't feel too bad about it.

S.

Please send your surplus decency to Stewart Pinkerton -- and pray for his ASS
 

On 16 Feb 2006 03:08:50 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Anyone with a shred decency, publicly faced with photographic proof
that for over a year he has falsely been calling someone a liar, would
apologize. Stewart Pinkerton instead launches into further unproven,
unprovable allegations. Stewart Pinkerton is lying scum beyond
redemption.

No such proof has been offered, just another of your smoke and mirror
deceptions.

Pinkerton's despicable "designs" don't get built.

Sure they do - just not KISASS.

He twisted this way
and that way as he tried not to publish a schematic for his wretched
KISASS "design", and -- seeing the way its incompetence was savaged
merely from the description -- who can blame him?

More lies from Jute - but what else can one expect?

My designs get built. And are used and enjoyed. Here for your enjoyment
is The KISS Amp 300B "Ultrafi" proto again, the one the lying scumbag
Pinkerton claims was never built:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg

So when will you be building your KISASS, Pinkerton? Go on, sport, we
can do with a good laugh.

I won't be. Why would I? It's nearly as crippled as KISS.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote


Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers
are too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns
and Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

You may want to try them in the main room one day when Moira's out.


We might have done that if we had had the place to ourselves.



Depends what you're used to, some people just don't care about
localisation, they have other priorities, others are perfectly happy with
a diffuse image, they actually prefer it.


Sure, but it won't do me ultimately - *image* and clarity are my priorities.
You (one) can adapt/adapt to tone one way or another, but you can't fake
detail you can't hear and you can't settle for less 'soundstage' and imaging
than you already know can be had from any given recording!!


Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Interesting link. Have you put in the equaliser and impedance matching
network recommended? It would be worth doing as it will smooth out the
frequency response for all amplifiers, especially SETs with their fairly
high output impedance.


Yes, I thinks so too - I read on the Net somewhere the 206s are not supposed
to need it but, in view of your findings and comments, I think it would be
well worthwhile and must be tried. In any case, I suspect I will fit the
'correct' FE208 Sigmas at some stage....

(Don't suppose you fancy knocking me up a Maplins's parts list do you? It
ain't laziness - my failing is I don't know the components well enough to be
sure of getting the right thing!! :-)



Thanks again for the day, and hope Moira doesn't feel too bad about it.


No, Moira was fine - she was hoping for a bit of a break/quiet day which is
why I said to her not to even bother to go into Cambridge, but it didn't
happen!! I hope it didn't spoil things to much for you. I enjoyed it and I
suspect I will get more from the day that you will - such get-togethers are
*never* a waste of time, I find!

Perhaps it has saved you squandering money on a Chinky SET (or two)....!!

:-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Serge Auckland wrote:

I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

...The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I just
couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky, crunchy,
as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at me. This is
relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds smooth and
natural.

I wonder what the frequency response is like. Some articles about the
Fostex drivers
in Voigt pipes mentioned a hump in the treble and suggested a parallel
coil
and capacitor (and possibly a resistor) to flatten the response.



There is a interesting little correction network here (scroll down):

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

...which I hadn't bothered with (yet) as I saw somewhere the FE206Es don't
need it....???

Serge's observations and comments have made me think they probably do.....