In article ,
wrote:
I think the whole DAB disaster could have been avoided if they'd
picked a solid technology, but they go for something 20 years old. Its
inexplicably wrongheaded....

First demonstration I heard of DAB was about 20 years ago. The better data
compression algorithms weren't around then.

--
*'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:


All methods of delivery are, or will be very shortly, processed during
the day.

Can you say what your source for the above is? Perhaps give a reference to
it? So far, my experience is that R3 DAB/DTTV tends not to be level
compressed during the day in the same way as R3 FM.

Also, since DAB includes the ability to provide user-optional DRC, do you
have reason to think the BBC will *not* make any level-compression a 'user
option' if they apply it to R3 FM?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:


All methods of delivery are, or will be very shortly, processed during
the day.

Can you say what your source for the above is? Perhaps give a reference to
it? So far, my experience is that R3 DAB/DTTV tends not to be level
compressed during the day in the same way as R3 FM.

Also, since DAB includes the ability to provide user-optional DRC, do you
have reason to think the BBC will *not* make any level-compression a 'user
option' if they apply it to R3 FM?

Slainte,

Jim

Jim,

Before I retired, I was the guy selling Orban in the UK. That's where the
information comes from, my dealings with the Corporation on supplying
processing for the new London Control Room. It is my understanding that all
R3 outlets will be processed eventually. You may well be right that
currently DAB/DTTV are not processed. They weren't, but may well be soon
when the new kit is operational. As to DRC, I have never heard any mention
of DRC within the BBC, so can't say if they will ever use it.

Processing is a hot subject within all radio broadcasters, BBC and
commercial. They guard their processor settings jealously, and are most
reluctant ever to talk about it publicly.

S.

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

All methods of delivery are, or will be very shortly, processed
during the day.

Can you say what your source for the above is? Perhaps give a
reference to it? So far, my experience is that R3 DAB/DTTV tends not
to be level compressed during the day in the same way as R3 FM.


Before I retired, I was the guy selling Orban in the UK. That's where
the information comes from, my dealings with the Corporation on
supplying processing for the new London Control Room.

That tells me that you sold them equipment. However it does not say who
told you this was their policy wrt R3 DAB/DTTV, nor why, nor if their
statement was authoratitive. Hence I can't tell if they may be installing
the equipment for other reasons and will not be level compressing DAB/DTTV
R3. Can you say who told you about DAB/DTTV R3, and what they said? (If you
do not want to give their name in public, please email me if you want it to
be 'in confidence'.)

[snip]

Processing is a hot subject within all radio broadcasters, BBC and
commercial. They guard their processor settings jealously, and are most
reluctant ever to talk about it publicly.

I can appreciate that as a general rule. However for R3 one of their
'selling points' should be the *lack* of level compression. Hence I'd
expect them to be willing to state this.

That said, I know that getting any info from anyone at the BBC is a
nightmare. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article .com,
writes
Opinions please.

First, I should mention that I am a bit of a vinyl junkie: my prefered
music source is my Linn LP12, although I also enjoy CDs played on my
Linn Ikemi.

My options for getting Radio 3:
1. I could have a VHF aerial placed on the roof of my house, and
probably upgrade my tuner;
2. The digi-box that supplies cable TV also gives radio: connecting it
to my amplifier gives music that is at least not unpleasant. At the
moment the signal has a long and indirect route between digi-box and
amplifier, but this could be changed;
3. I could buy a new DAB tuner.

So I would welcome your opinions and experiences about which option is
likely to prove most satisfying for me.


FM hands down. But!!!, get a good aerial, not one of those poxy Halo
things. You can DIY if you are in a good signal area. An Antiference or
Triax multi element both available from www.cpc.co.uk

Tuner?, simplest and best bet is the Denon TU260 MK2 less than 100 notes
from richer sounds. Or look on e-bay for a second-hand REVOX 261 or best
of them all an Audiolab T8000..


Sit back relax.. Enjoy)
--
Tony Sayer

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:32:35 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article .com,
writes
Opinions please.

First, I should mention that I am a bit of a vinyl junkie: my prefered
music source is my Linn LP12, although I also enjoy CDs played on my
Linn Ikemi.

My options for getting Radio 3:
1. I could have a VHF aerial placed on the roof of my house, and
probably upgrade my tuner;
2. The digi-box that supplies cable TV also gives radio: connecting it
to my amplifier gives music that is at least not unpleasant. At the
moment the signal has a long and indirect route between digi-box and
amplifier, but this could be changed;
3. I could buy a new DAB tuner.

So I would welcome your opinions and experiences about which option is
likely to prove most satisfying for me.


FM hands down. But!!!, get a good aerial, not one of those poxy Halo
things. You can DIY if you are in a good signal area. An Antiference or
Triax multi element both available from www.cpc.co.uk

Tuner?, simplest and best bet is the Denon TU260 MK2 less than 100 notes
from richer sounds. Or look on e-bay for a second-hand REVOX 261 or best
of them all an Audiolab T8000..


Sit back relax.. Enjoy)

No. The problem with FM is that it is more or less heavily processed -
dynamics are squashed - depending on the time of day. It is anything
but a clean feed.

For the best quality, satellite and Freeview are the way to go. They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

In article , Don Pearce
writes
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:32:35 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article .com,
writes
Opinions please.

First, I should mention that I am a bit of a vinyl junkie: my prefered
music source is my Linn LP12, although I also enjoy CDs played on my
Linn Ikemi.

My options for getting Radio 3:
1. I could have a VHF aerial placed on the roof of my house, and
probably upgrade my tuner;
2. The digi-box that supplies cable TV also gives radio: connecting it
to my amplifier gives music that is at least not unpleasant. At the
moment the signal has a long and indirect route between digi-box and
amplifier, but this could be changed;
3. I could buy a new DAB tuner.

So I would welcome your opinions and experiences about which option is
likely to prove most satisfying for me.


FM hands down. But!!!, get a good aerial, not one of those poxy Halo
things. You can DIY if you are in a good signal area. An Antiference or
Triax multi element both available from www.cpc.co.uk

Tuner?, simplest and best bet is the Denon TU260 MK2 less than 100 notes
from richer sounds. Or look on e-bay for a second-hand REVOX 261 or best
of them all an Audiolab T8000..


Sit back relax.. Enjoy)

No. The problem with FM is that it is more or less heavily processed -
dynamics are squashed - depending on the time of day. It is anything
but a clean feed.

Yes they are processed a bit during the day but backed off for much of
the evening...

For the best quality, satellite and Freeview are the way to go.

Satellite would be if the bitrates were high enough, but as you well
know Don, they aren't

They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

Beg to differ. Don't you notice the artefacts?. Not that I've anything
at all against digital transmission but if they do use an outdated codec
and chuck away information then what do you expect?.

Ever heard German or French radio via sat?...

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Tony Sayer

On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:10:31 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
writes
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:32:35 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article .com,
writes
Opinions please.

First, I should mention that I am a bit of a vinyl junkie: my prefered
music source is my Linn LP12, although I also enjoy CDs played on my
Linn Ikemi.

My options for getting Radio 3:
1. I could have a VHF aerial placed on the roof of my house, and
probably upgrade my tuner;
2. The digi-box that supplies cable TV also gives radio: connecting it
to my amplifier gives music that is at least not unpleasant. At the
moment the signal has a long and indirect route between digi-box and
amplifier, but this could be changed;
3. I could buy a new DAB tuner.

So I would welcome your opinions and experiences about which option is
likely to prove most satisfying for me.


FM hands down. But!!!, get a good aerial, not one of those poxy Halo
things. You can DIY if you are in a good signal area. An Antiference or
Triax multi element both available from www.cpc.co.uk

Tuner?, simplest and best bet is the Denon TU260 MK2 less than 100 notes
from richer sounds. Or look on e-bay for a second-hand REVOX 261 or best
of them all an Audiolab T8000..


Sit back relax.. Enjoy)

No. The problem with FM is that it is more or less heavily processed -
dynamics are squashed - depending on the time of day. It is anything
but a clean feed.

Yes they are processed a bit during the day but backed off for much of
the evening...

For the best quality, satellite and Freeview are the way to go.

Satellite would be if the bitrates were high enough, but as you well
know Don, they aren't


I guess it depends on what bothers you. I find even the tiniest bit of
dynamic compression immensely irritating - much more so than the
little glitches from satellite bitrates, which frankly I have to
listen for.

They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

Beg to differ. Don't you notice the artefacts?. Not that I've anything
at all against digital transmission but if they do use an outdated codec
and chuck away information then what do you expect?.

Ever heard German or French radio via sat?...


I would dearly love UK DAB to be simply turned off, and relaunched
with real, up-to-date codecs, together with the assumption that all
future radios will be soft, so updates over the air are the norm.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

I
I guess it depends on what bothers you. I find even the tiniest bit of
dynamic compression immensely irritating - much more so than the
little glitches from satellite bitrates, which frankly I have to
listen for.

Its not glitches its that horrible metallic sound get s tiring to listen
to after a while..

They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

Beg to differ. Don't you notice the artefacts?. Not that I've anything
at all against digital transmission but if they do use an outdated codec
and chuck away information then what do you expect?.

Ever heard German or French radio via sat?...


I would dearly love UK DAB to be simply turned off, and relaunched
with real, up-to-date codecs, together with the assumption that all
future radios will be soft, so updates over the air are the norm.

I think.. That we can agree on that!.....

--
Tony Sayer

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:10:31 +0000, tony sayer wrote:




I guess it depends on what bothers you. I find even the tiniest bit of
dynamic compression immensely irritating - much more so than the little
glitches from satellite bitrates, which frankly I have to listen for.

I have also come to a similar conclusion. When I first started listening to
DTTV (and then DAB) I found the differences from FM quite noticable, and
initially disliked the results. However with continued listening I decided
that quite a lot of this was due to my being 'habituated' to the level
compression, noise, and high-level nonlinearity of FM.

Now, the sound on DAB R3 does seem 'confused' at times, but also a lot of
the time I now find it much clearer than on FM. Given a free choice and
repeated comparisons over many months I now find I tend to prefer DTTV or
DAB a lot of the time. Mainly I think as a result of the (relative) lack of
level compression, noise, and high-level nonlinearity. Note, though, that
this is for R3, not necessarily for other stations.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html