Thus spake Jo:
Why not take all of the points made in this thread and repeat the
tests with a series of improved double blind, randomised protocols
that some have suggested ? I haven't got any agenda or preconceptions
at all, since I'm very much a newbie but looking to buy some cables
soon and so I would be interested in your results.

I thought that was what Don's protocol was suggesting. I don't think he's
interested in proctoring the tests himself & has clarified that the protocol
is only really for those who state the differences are stark rather than
subtle.

I think the only concession you'll get here is to replace any freebee "patch
cord" with about the cheapest after-market one you can find & spend any
change on buying some MUSIC!

In article ,
Paul B wrote:
I think the only concession you'll get here is to replace any freebee
"patch cord" with about the cheapest after-market one you can find &
spend any change on buying some MUSIC!

You're assuming all 'supplied' cables are to the same 'quality'? Judging
by my collection they certainly don't come from the same factory. And why
would the supplier of a good quality separate ruin its performance by
supplying an inferior cable with it? Or do you think the prices charged
for these 'aftermarket' ones reflect the cost of making them?

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Thus spake Dave Plowman (News):
In article ,
Paul B wrote:
I think the only concession you'll get here is to replace any freebee
"patch cord" with about the cheapest after-market one you can find &
spend any change on buying some MUSIC!

You're assuming all 'supplied' cables are to the same 'quality'?
Judging by my collection they certainly don't come from the same
factory. And why would the supplier of a good quality separate ruin
its performance by supplying an inferior cable with it? Or do you
think the prices charged for these 'aftermarket' ones reflect the
cost of making them?

The only assumption I've made is that Jo (professing to be a newb) probably
won't be spending so much that any supplied cable is going to be superior to
a fairly basic after-market variant. I would venture that the main
advantages are going to be mechanical integrity rather than sonic. I'm also
not convinced that even a cheap lead would "ruin" the sound of anything. If
I was recommending spending lets say ~£50 or more for an interconnect, its
manufacturing cost may indeed be a relevant but I'm not.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're assuming all 'supplied' cables are to the same 'quality'?
Judging by my collection they certainly don't come from the same
factory. And why would the supplier of a good quality separate ruin
its performance by supplying an inferior cable with it? Or do you
think the prices charged for these 'aftermarket' ones reflect the
cost of making them?

Most mid-range and upwards separates don't have cables thrown in these
days. It seems to be just the Japanese trash that does.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 19:56:22 +0000, Glenn Richards
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're assuming all 'supplied' cables are to the same 'quality'?
Judging by my collection they certainly don't come from the same
factory. And why would the supplier of a good quality separate ruin
its performance by supplying an inferior cable with it? Or do you
think the prices charged for these 'aftermarket' ones reflect the
cost of making them?

Most mid-range and upwards separates don't have cables thrown in these
days. It seems to be just the Japanese trash that does.

Firstly, the Japanese gear isn't trash. Secondly, the more expensive
stuff doesn't include cables because the makers know that the dealer
will sell the punter some overpriced 'audiophile' cable - and the box
maker saves a quid.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article ,
Glenn Richards wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're assuming all 'supplied' cables are to the same 'quality'?
Judging by my collection they certainly don't come from the same
factory. And why would the supplier of a good quality separate ruin
its performance by supplying an inferior cable with it? Or do you
think the prices charged for these 'aftermarket' ones reflect the
cost of making them?

Most mid-range and upwards separates don't have cables thrown in these
days. It seems to be just the Japanese trash that does.

You're suggesting the Japanese can't make decent audio equipment? ;-)

However, that just sounds like a marketing ploy. The 'quality'
interconnects you recommend could be bought for pennies in bulk and
supplied with the equipment.

--
*Acupuncture is a jab well done*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Most mid-range and upwards separates don't have cables thrown in these
days. It seems to be just the Japanese trash that does.
You're suggesting the Japanese can't make decent audio equipment? ;-)

No, I was being deliberately facetious. (That's a notch above sarcastic,
for the Pinkertons out there.) A lot of Jap electronics are very very
good, especially at the budget/lower mid end of the market.

Even at the higher end, there's not much that can touch Yamaha for
audio-visual kit. Compare the Arcam and Yamaha AV receivers at the
£1,000 price point and the Yamaha does do a bit better with movies. With
music though the Arcam blows it away.

Anyone looking at getting a budget separates system, I'd recommend Jap
electronics any time. But... don't touch Jap speakers with a bargepole!

There are only two things the Japanese don't do well. Speakers and cars.
Whilst on paper Jap cars look good, they all tend to drive like a pig,
and I wouldn't touch one. Give me German any day, with Jap ICE
electronics and British made speakers...

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:50:15 +0000, Glenn Richards
wrote:

There are only two things the Japanese don't do well. Speakers and cars.
Whilst on paper Jap cars look good, they all tend to drive like a pig,
and I wouldn't touch one. Give me German any day, with Jap ICE
electronics and British made speakers...

You remain an idiot. The Honda S2000 is one of the finest 'pure bred'
sports cars that a reasonable amount of money can buy, while Lexus
rules the roost for sheer quality.

OTOH, I drive an Audi A3 3.2 with DSG box, while my wife drives a TT.
Preferences are sacrosanct.

Oh yes, and both have Bose sound systems! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

[irrelevant personal insults snipped]
The Honda S2000 is one of the finest 'pure bred' sports cars that a
reasonable amount of money can buy, while Lexus rules the roost for
sheer quality.

There's an exception that proves every rule. But the S2000 has been
discontinued.

Jap cars I've driven:

Toyota Corolla, ****.
Toyota Carina, ****.
Toyota Avensis, pretentious ****.
Mazda 6, made me feel ill.
Smart ForFour (it's based on a Mitsubishi Colt), seriously ****.
L-reg Vauxhall Astra estate 1.7D (apparently the engine and all the
running gear is made by Isuzu), slightly less **** than the GM engine,
but still ****.

Lexus is made by Toyota, and every one of those I've ever driven has
been ****.

OTOH, I drive an Audi A3 3.2 with DSG box, while my wife drives a TT.

Well, at least you've got a decent car, albeit with the girlie gearbox.

The 3.2 A3 with the 6-speed manual is lovely though. Had one as a loan
car over new year when my A4 Quattro had to go in to have some work
done. Managed to spin all 4 wheels for a moment when taking off down a
dry road... hit 70mph, then did what any sensible person would do -
changed up to 2nd gear.

Coming back up the M5 from Weston on new year's day, came through the
M4/M5 interchange, found the road was totally deserted and planted it.
Hit the limiter at 155mph, broke through it (lift off the gas and plant
it again) and got it up to something approaching 180mph according to my
sat-nav. Then cooked the brakes slowing from 175mph to 0mph for the
motorway exit - started braking at the 1 mile marker.

It would take something very special to get me out of an Audi, it has to
be said.

Oh yes, and both have Bose sound systems! :-)

The problem with the Bose sound system is that it shows up just how ****
the standard head units are. I've had a couple of loan cars (an A4
S-line and the A3 3.2) that had Bose systems, and you can really hear
the inherent crappiness of the factory fit HU.

Mine naturally has aftermarket kit fitted, Sony MEX-1HD head unit,
XM-4060 amplifier, 2x10" JBL subs in the boot, 1 farad power cap... and
yes, I've used decent quality cables throughout. Cambridge Atlantic
links head unit to amp, CPC's version of Gale XL-105 links amp to front
speakers and subs. (Rear speakers powered by Audi active system.)

Might consider on the next one having the Bose upgrade and fitting my
Sony head unit to it. The Bose amp/speaker system does sound pretty
good, so one wonders just how good it would sound with a decent source.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

Paul B wrote:

I think the only concession you'll get here is to replace any freebee
"patch cord" with about the cheapest after-market one you can find &
spend any change on buying some MUSIC!

Replace the freebie one cos it sounds ****. To put it bluntly.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with someone of the cloth-eared
disposition a few years back who was convinced that MP3 sounded better
than CD. This was about 8-9 years ago, when MP3 certainly didn't sound
as good as CD...

Turns out he was comparing MP3 played through the DAC on his PC's sound
card (a Creative SB16, still one of the best sounding budget sound cards
that's been bade) to CD played through the analogue outputs of his
CD-ROM drive.

Which, if people didn't know, uses a resistor ladder array, and produces
rather nasty amounts of distortion. And a S/N ratio of about 45dB
(about the same as cassette without Dolby, or indeed uk.rec.audio in
general, but still considerably higher than Stewart Pinkerton [1]). So
yes, it probably did sound better.

Not quite sure what relevance that has to this conversation, but it's
still an interesting point. Fortunately nowadays if you play an audio CD
on a PC it extracts the audio digitally and plays it through the PC's
sound card...

[1] In the 3 years or so since I've been reading this group, I've never
once seen Pinkerton post anything constructive. His S/N ratio is
probably 1dB...

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation