Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

wrote in message
ups.com...
You really are totally convinced that there's no other way of thinking
about
things than the one you happen to know, aren't you?. At least *try* to be
a
bit open-minded!

YIKES!!

THAT is the fallacy of leaping to conclusions.

No, what I am saying is that if one wishes to communicate with a
know-intelligent entity across _very dense_ barriers, one had better
damned-well stick with what is certain, and use what is already known.

I think you'd be better off looking at how babies are taught to understand
language rather than jumping straight into abstract mathematics.

Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

Babies....

With all due respect, that is the fallacy of false premises. There are
only seven (the rest being derivative). You have managed two in a very
brief conversation. Babies a-priori have no 'language' but they are
also human. So, in terms of communication they are infinitely closer to
their parents than _any_ entity outside ourselves could ever be. They
also do not have the wherewithall to communicate in language for a
considerable time after birth.

We have more in common in every way you can describe with a garden
spider than we would with any entity we might encounter outside of this
planet. To put it bluntly, the _only_ means we will have to initiate
communication will be within those things that are immutable. That will
necessarily be those things that *must* be common to any intelligence
that controls its destiny, however peculiar (in the sense of unique,
not strange) it might be. Please try to think outside of whatever box
you have built for yourself and is so restrictive to your
imagination.... that was emphatically NOT a slam, just an appeal for
that rarest of commodities.... Common sense.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

You are still trying way too hard.

Look at it this way: Herein, you have found a most peculiar form of
alien. By way of this conversation, you are applying the Turing Test.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/turing-test/

The purpose of which is to determine whether the conversant is
intelligent and self-aware or not. This does not mean 'smart' by any
stretch.

There are those who will not be convinced. There comes a time when this
must be accepted as neither logic nor brute force will prevail. In a
peculiar sort of way, this ability to be rigid defines self-awareness
and a level of intelligence. Entities that are not self-aware, yet
intelligent would perforce be either logical or predictable (and very
likely both) as they would not have the ability to choose or exclude
data. Entities that are self-aware but not intelligent would not be
able to carry on a conversation.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
Babies....

With all due respect, that is the fallacy of false premises. There are
only seven (the rest being derivative). You have managed two in a very
brief conversation. Babies a-priori have no 'language' but they are
also human. So, in terms of communication they are infinitely closer to
their parents than _any_ entity outside ourselves could ever be. They
also do not have the wherewithall to communicate in language for a
considerable time after birth.

We have more in common in every way you can describe with a garden
spider than we would with any entity we might encounter outside of this
planet. To put it bluntly, the _only_ means we will have to initiate
communication will be within those things that are immutable. That will
necessarily be those things that *must* be common to any intelligence
that controls its destiny, however peculiar (in the sense of unique,
not strange) it might be. Please try to think outside of whatever box
you have built for yourself and is so restrictive to your
imagination.... that was emphatically NOT a slam, just an appeal for
that rarest of commodities.... Common sense.

LOL... I'd say exactly the same to you.

Think about it. If you want to teach a baby the word "train" what do you do?
You show it a train and say the word at the same time. Now assuming our
alien is capable of sensing the presence of both the train and the word,
that, surely, is the most basic way of making the association between the
word and the idea.

Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

wrote in message
oups.com...
If I
were to come at an entity with pi in some form it could understand, and
it were to come back with sq.rt. 2 in some form I could understand,
what could be derived from this is "we know you are out there, let's
talk".

That gave me a wonderful image of you at a party...

"3.14159"
"1.41421"
"OK, you're clearly self-aware so I'll talk to you. Hi, I'm Peter..."

:-)

Super discussion about negative numbers on the BBC
 

This is true... some people I have met are quite definitely not of this
earth. Take that for what it is worth.

But, lest you think I made the pi/rt.2 up, read "The Mote in God's Eye"
by Niven and Pournelle . That is how two species strange to each other
got started.

No, they could not interbreed.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA