In article , Glenn Richards
writes
Roderick Stewart wrote:

"I then switched the power cable on the amplifier to use the Isotek
cable. Immediately there was an improvement in dynamics, percussion in
particular had much more presence and depth".

Which would make perfect sense, as by taking out RF interference what
you've done is lowered the noise floor. You may not be able to hear RF,
but if your amplifier is trying to reproduce it then it's increased the
noise floor, which will result in the dynamic range of the system being
reduced.


Glenn,

do you live somewhere like Brookmans Park or Holme Moss?. Never known a
bloke to be troubled by so much RF!......
--
Tony Sayer

In article , Glenn Richards
writes
Jim Lesurf wrote:

You presumably were aware thoughout of what arrangement was in use. You
also seem to have only done this a few times, not many times to form
abody of data on which any meaningful statistical analysis could be
carried out.

We didn't worry about setting up a blind test at this stage, as my
concern was simply to find out whether there was a difference,
perceived, psychological, whatever.

Ah!, If your after the feel good factor going to church on Sundays or an
old s/hand bible might achieve that!.....

From my point of view I'm satisfied with the results. Using an RFI
filtered 4-way strip in combination with a generic filtered IEC lead
will get rid of the RF hash on the mains supply, and thereby lower the
noise floor (and improve dynamics). These bits can be had at trade price
for about £8 for the 4-way block, and less than a fiver for a bare-ended
IEC cable and a filtered 13A plug. Use the two together and it's just as
effective as an Isotek cable (£60).

When you have the amount of PC hardware on your ring main as I do (WinXP
and NetBSD workstations in the dining room/office, 10 servers in the
attic, RISC PC in one bedroom, A3020 in another bedroom, plus a couple
of laptops, then all the Ethernet switches, wireless access point etc
all spewing RF onto the mains) then decent RFI filtering on the mains
does make a difference. And even if you're living out in the middle of
nowhere, with no PCs or SMPSUs for miles, it's worth having a surge
protected strip anyway.

Quick question - in the event of a lightning strike, what would you
rather have fried? £8 worth of surge protected mains distribution block,
or £1,000 worth of amplifier?

O dear!, in the advent of a lightning strike make sure your insurance
covers your gear!....

Course going to church on Sunday might appease the almighty so your
protected!.....

Bit of a no-brainer really, that one.

Yep.. no brains at all.....


--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:

We didn't worry about setting up a blind test at this stage, as my
concern was simply to find out whether there was a difference,
perceived, psychological, whatever.
Ah!, If your after the feel good factor going to church on Sundays or
an old s/hand bible might achieve that!.....

Nope. Committed atheist, and have been ever since I was old enough to
know what it meant. (So about age 7 then...)

Quick question - in the event of a lightning strike, what would you
rather have fried? £8 worth of surge protected mains distribution
block, or £1,000 worth of amplifier?
O dear!, in the advent of a lightning strike make sure your insurance
covers your gear!....

Apparently with these Masterplug surge protected strips, Masterplug
themselves will guarantee to replace up to £4,000 worth of connected
equipment in the event of a power spike causing damage.

And as I've had a VCR get fried by a mains spike before (an old Ferguson
3V48... fortunately not a 3V43!) I tend to err on the side of caution
when it comes to power surges.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

"Glenn Richards" wrote in
message
Jim Lesurf wrote:

You presumably were aware thoughout of what arrangement
was in use. You also seem to have only done this a few
times, not many times to form abody of data on which any
meaningful statistical analysis could be carried out.

We didn't worry about setting up a blind test at this
stage, as my concern was simply to find out whether there
was a difference, perceived, psychological, whatever.

Anybody with a clue about experimental design or psychology could predict
the outcome of your test without bothering to do it.

Arny Krueger wrote:

We didn't worry about setting up a blind test at this stage, as my
concern was simply to find out whether there was a difference,
perceived, psychological, whatever.
Anybody with a clue about experimental design or psychology could
predict the outcome of your test without bothering to do it.

The implication of what I wrote before was that if there appears to be a
difference (whether real or psychological) then it's worth the effort
and hassle of setting up a blind test. If there's no difference apparent
using a straight test then there's no point wasting time with blind testing.

However, as a straight test concluded that there was indeed a difference
(whether that difference was real or psychological is a matter for
debate, but the fact that three of us all heard the same effects would
suggest that the difference was indeed there) then it's perhaps worth
setting up a blind test.

As I appear to have won an Isotek power cable, at least for the time
being, I may well set up a blind test next time I've got a few hours to
waste. If I do so then I will of course post the results here.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

In article , Tony sayer wrote:
"I then switched the power cable on the amplifier to use the Isotek
cable. Immediately there was an improvement in dynamics, percussion in
particular had much more presence and depth".

Which would make perfect sense, as by taking out RF interference what
you've done is lowered the noise floor. You may not be able to hear RF,
but if your amplifier is trying to reproduce it then it's increased the
noise floor, which will result in the dynamic range of the system being
reduced.


Glenn,

do you live somewhere like Brookmans Park or Holme Moss?. Never known a
bloke to be troubled by so much RF!......
--
Tony Sayer

I think most technical "problems" with domestic gear are the product of a
lively but uninformed imagination. Also possibly the fact that a lot of
people never seem to outgrow their childhood instinct of believing what they
are told without questioning it provided they are told often enough by
people with the appearance of authority. Those that remain technically
ignorant but take up technical hobbies then spend their lives trying to
solve problems that don't exist. Either that or they keep on applying the
wrong remedies to problems that are of their own making because the
equipment hasn't been installed or set up correctly. I wonder how many
people who worry about RF actually know anything about it?

In my living room I have two PCs, one of them a wireless laptop which
normally lives on the same shelf unit as all the audio and video gear. The
wireless access point is only about 3 metres away, and just next to it is
the base station of a cordless phone, and my mobile phone is a similar
distance away on another shelf. Sometimes there are several other PCs in the
house if I am building or testing them for other people. The AV signals from
several disk recorders go through a SCART switch box and through about 5
metres of SCART cable to the TV set. I *think* all the TV and AV audio still
goes through the TV set before going back along several metres of phono
cables, but there's such a tangle of wiring which has been changed and added
to over the years that I'd have to check out the details, but certainly lots
of very ordinary cable. The kitchen is just next door and contains a fridge
with a thermostat, and there is another mains-switching thermostat on the
living room wall for the central heating.

And there isn't a single unwanted click, hiss or splat on the speakers from
any of this, ever. I can switch the amplifier to an unused input, turn the
volume control fully clockwise and put my head right in front of one of the
loudspeakers and hear nothing at all.

So why am I missing all the excitement? Everybody else seems to have to
tinker about solving endless technical problems with their hi-fi, but I just
connect everything together and sit back and enjoy the music without
worrying about anything, and it all works. The only problem I have that
*might* be RF based is that the radio-controlled wall clock tries to reset
itself at least once a day and is more often wrong than right, but there are
plenty of other gadgets that tell the time so it's not really important, and
if it annoys me once too often I can replace it with something from Ikea for
less than a fiver.

Rod.

Hi,

"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message

[snip description of a techno-den that sounds vaguely like my place]

And there isn't a single unwanted click, hiss or splat on the speakers from
any of this, ever. I can switch the amplifier to an unused input, turn the
volume control fully clockwise and put my head right in front of one of the
loudspeakers and hear nothing at all.

Ditto.

So why am I missing all the excitement?

You don't want to believe :-)

Everybody else seems to have to
tinker about solving endless technical problems with their hi-fi, but I just
connect everything together and sit back and enjoy the music without
worrying about anything, and it all works.

I don't think there's any 'have to' about it. I reckon some people 'want
to' tinker with endless technical problems. I'm a bit like that, but I put
it down to a thirst for knowledge (honest!) and I do my tinkering on
things that really might make a difference.

There are plenty of 'audiophiles' who are in it for the toys, not the music.
For those people who aren't _really_ in it for the music, there has to be some
twiddling to do in the endless (and fruitless) search for perfection, or it's
just
no fun. There's nothing wrong with that, except that it encourages the
******* that want to profit from naivety by selling snake oil.

In my book, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Regards,

Glenn.

Roderick Stewart wrote:

I *think* all the TV and AV audio still goes through the TV set
before going back along several metres of phono cables, but there's
such a tangle of wiring which has been changed and added to over the
years that I'd have to check out the details, but certainly lots of
very ordinary cable.

Well, that just about says it all really.

The audio stage in most TVs is pretty poor, and if you're routing the AV
audio through the telly then it's going to sound bad.

The audio on my AV system goes nowhere near the TV, indeed the audio in
the SCART cable isn't even wired up. I've heard systems that were wired
up in this way, with all audio from AV (VCR, satellite box etc) routed
via the TV, and it sounded pretty horrible.

If that really is how you've got your system set up, and it sounds fine
to you, then don't waste your money on mains filters, interconnects,
silver speaker cable etc - as if you're happy with the way it sounds
like it is then you wouldn't appreciate the difference any of the
upgrades we've been discussing would make.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

In article , Glenn Booth wrote:
You don't want to believe :-)

What I believe is based on what I can see and hear.

Everybody else seems to have to
tinker about solving endless technical problems with their hi-fi, but I just
connect everything together and sit back and enjoy the music without
worrying about anything, and it all works.

I don't think there's any 'have to' about it. I reckon some people 'want
to' tinker with endless technical problems. I'm a bit like that, but I put
it down to a thirst for knowledge (honest!) and I do my tinkering on
things that really might make a difference.

Good for you. I used to do a lot more of that too, until I reached a point where
the extra tinkering wasn't making any worthwhile improvement. As long as you
don't bother with things that defy reason or the laws of physics, and are honest
with yourself about what you can really hear, and follow up as much as you can
with objective measurements, then you'll make progress.

Rod.

In article , Glenn Richards wrote:
I *think* all the TV and AV audio still goes through the TV set
before going back along several metres of phono cables, but there's
such a tangle of wiring which has been changed and added to over the
years that I'd have to check out the details, but certainly lots of
very ordinary cable.

Well, that just about says it all really.

The audio stage in most TVs is pretty poor, and if you're routing the AV
audio through the telly then it's going to sound bad.

The audio on my AV system goes nowhere near the TV, indeed the audio in
the SCART cable isn't even wired up. I've heard systems that were wired
up in this way, with all audio from AV (VCR, satellite box etc) routed
via the TV, and it sounded pretty horrible.

If that really is how you've got your system set up, and it sounds fine
to you, then don't waste your money on mains filters, interconnects,
silver speaker cable etc - as if you're happy with the way it sounds
like it is then you wouldn't appreciate the difference any of the
upgrades we've been discussing would make.

Just for the record, I've worked in broadcasting for 38 years, I'm not deaf
or stupid, and have plenty of experience of what many different kinds of
video and audio equipment look and sound like. You may have reached a
"decision" that my home AV setup cannot possibly perform well, based only
on my written description of it, but my own appraisal of it is based on
listening, watching, and comparing. Let's apply some logic please -
evidence first, *then* the conclusion.

Rod.