from another forum anyone any idea whats broke ?

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS amp to show you the
difference between your triodes and a SS amp. This is because the main
attributes of the SE triodes is a high output impedance causing frequency
response anomalies and high harmonic distortion, especially in the bass.
With your horns' high efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By changing
to an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be reducing the output impedance
and
harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10. Changing to a SS amp, you
could reduce output impedance and distortion by a further factor of 10,
but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of reductions. If you prefer
the sound with the ULPP amp, (and I did when I heard it) that will
indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified with his Argos
Special amp last week, is that the cleaner drive will make the whole
thing sound a good deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive capability, this
may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10 (?) watt SET to
sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp
at 3/4 volume...???

On Fri, 5 May 2006 11:05:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS amp to show you the
difference between your triodes and a SS amp. This is because the main
attributes of the SE triodes is a high output impedance causing frequency
response anomalies and high harmonic distortion, especially in the bass.
With your horns' high efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By changing
to an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be reducing the output impedance
and
harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10. Changing to a SS amp, you
could reduce output impedance and distortion by a further factor of 10,
but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of reductions. If you prefer
the sound with the ULPP amp, (and I did when I heard it) that will
indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified with his Argos
Special amp last week, is that the cleaner drive will make the whole
thing sound a good deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive capability, this
may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10 (?) watt SET to
sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp
at 3/4 volume...???



True though. Play a clean and a distorted piece at precisely the same
sound pressure level, and the distorted one will sound much louder and
fuller. I found this out for myself big time when I got my Stax
electrostatic headphones. At first I was disappointed that they
wouldn't go very loud, then I took them off and realised they were
bellowing.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Hi,

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 May 2006 11:05:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10 (?) watt SET to
sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp
at 3/4 volume...???

True though. Play a clean and a distorted piece at precisely the same
sound pressure level, and the distorted one will sound much louder and
fuller. I found this out for myself big time when I got my Stax
electrostatic headphones. At first I was disappointed that they
wouldn't go very loud, then I took them off and realised they were
bellowing.

The same thing happened to me when I first heard ATC speakers. I
knew they were inefficient (they were active 20s I think) but I couldn't
understand why they didn't sound louder with all that amp muscle
behind them. It turned out that I'd been listening about 10dB louder
than I thought.

That's why my teenage-years 200 watt disco sounded so loud - most
of it was distortion :-)

Glenn.

"Glenn Booth" wrote in message
...
Hi,

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 May 2006 11:05:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10 (?) watt SET to
sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS
amp
at 3/4 volume...???

True though. Play a clean and a distorted piece at precisely the same
sound pressure level, and the distorted one will sound much louder and
fuller. I found this out for myself big time when I got my Stax
electrostatic headphones. At first I was disappointed that they
wouldn't go very loud, then I took them off and realised they were
bellowing.

The same thing happened to me when I first heard ATC speakers. I
knew they were inefficient (they were active 20s I think) but I couldn't
understand why they didn't sound louder with all that amp muscle
behind them. It turned out that I'd been listening about 10dB louder
than I thought.

That's why my teenage-years 200 watt disco sounded so loud - most
of it was distortion :-)


Well, I've had a very interesting day.

First off I bought another ss amp the same as this one from my mate Pat:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amplifier-Ster...cmdZViewI tem

....which will be better on the computer than the Argos POS amp due its
having a proper Tape Loop. I ran it for a while on the new/improved Jerichos
then the Argos amp and can report that they both sounded fine. Very clear
and bags of detail &c.

(As I type - Jazz Legends starting on the hifi system and a recording of
Take Five playing on the computer - that takes some doing!! :-)

Then after a while I cut one of my 300B SETs in - *kaboom*!! There it is
again! (In a heartbeat!) Much better!!

I don't care if the sound of a SET is due to lashings of distortion, thick
lumpy gravy, an excresence of hardened gorilla snot or whatever - straight
away the sound was less sterile and 'hollow' but much more tactile, engaging
and *realistic* - like the performers were right in the room!! (The ss sound
had a certain air of 'detachment' by comparison!) I can only conclude that
ss amps may/probably do a better job of amplifying 'sonic information', but
there's no doubt in my mind that SETs do a better job of playing *music*!!
(SS are also better than valves for recording LP to HDD!)

All of this was made strange and a little more difficult than it might have
been by the quite dramatic change to the speakers - it's amazing what the
addition of a little bit of carpetting has done (on the rear wall of the
pressure chamber, right behind the drive units). Right now I don't think
there's any 'crunchiness' at all now - in fact, for a moment or two, I
almost thought they sounded muffled!! (??)

The now spare (so what's new?) Argos special will come in handy for that two
weeks later on - when it is better to use ss amps and to have a convertible
car!!

There you go - funny old world innit? :-)

Hi,

"Keith G" wrote in message
news
(As I type - Jazz Legends starting on the hifi system and a recording of
Take Five playing on the computer - that takes some doing!! :-)

Then after a while I cut one of my 300B SETs in - *kaboom*!! There it is
again! (In a heartbeat!) Much better!!

I don't care if the sound of a SET is due to lashings of distortion, thick
lumpy gravy, an excresence of hardened gorilla snot or whatever - straight
away the sound was less sterile and 'hollow' but much more tactile, engaging
and *realistic* - like the performers were right in the room!! (The ss sound
had a certain air of 'detachment' by comparison!) I can only conclude that
ss amps may/probably do a better job of amplifying 'sonic information', but
there's no doubt in my mind that SETs do a better job of playing *music*!!
(SS are also better than valves for recording LP to HDD!)

Whatever does it for you... it's your ears you have to please! I will not
judge,
as I have still yet to have a proper listen to a SET. My brother-in-law is
in the process of building some 'firewood horns' though, so maybe I'll
get a listen shortly. He's got the idea from somewhere
that Fostex 'full range' drivers, a 'T-amp' and a Behringer feedback
destroyer will make for a nice system... I remain unconvinced, but
open minded.


All of this was made strange and a little more difficult than it might have
been by the quite dramatic change to the speakers - it's amazing what the
addition of a little bit of carpetting has done (on the rear wall of the
pressure chamber, right behind the drive units). Right now I don't think
there's any 'crunchiness' at all now - in fact, for a moment or two, I
almost thought they sounded muffled!! (??)

A bit of absorptive stuff can make a large of difference.
when I bought this house I found a 10 rolls of rockwool type stuff
in a shed that the previous owner hadn't used (he 'forgot' to insulate
the bloody attic!). I needed to move it, and put it into the 'big shed'
where the home cinema lives. It made a massive difference to the sound.
Of course, my wife now thinks I'm totally barking, as she caught
me wandering around with a roll of fluffy stuff over one shoulder
and a finger in one ear...

Maybe she's right.

There you go - funny old world innit? :-)

My wife thinks so, and my brother-in-law is the proof :-)

Tara,

Glenn.

"Glenn Booth" wrote


Whatever does it for you... it's your ears you have to please! I will not
judge,
as I have still yet to have a proper listen to a SET.


Not for everybody - never said they were.....


My brother-in-law is
in the process of building some 'firewood horns' though, so maybe I'll
get a listen shortly. He's got the idea from somewhere
that Fostex 'full range' drivers, a 'T-amp' and a Behringer feedback
destroyer will make for a nice system...


Interesting. (What's a 'feedback destroyer' when it's at home?)


I remain unconvinced, but
open minded.


Exactly, as do I.....

Even as I type I am deep into the Dark Territories - the Argos POS amp I got
the other day has *mutated* and now looks like this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/outbreak.JPG

:-)

....and I am currently listening to MP3s from a CDRW (sounds simple 'til you
try it).....

The sound is very much *New Testament* but it's great fun and those three
pieces of kit being controllable from the one zapper (of which I now have
3....) make for a great deal of flexibility, especially with the little
TV/Digibox/HDD Recorder setup (as well as an FM tuner, KI *tweaked* CDP and
TT on a valve phono stage) routed through them !! :-)




All of this was made strange and a little more difficult than it might
have been by the quite dramatic change to the speakers - it's amazing
what the addition of a little bit of carpetting has done (on the rear
wall of the pressure chamber, right behind the drive units). Right now I
don't think there's any 'crunchiness' at all now - in fact, for a moment
or two, I almost thought they sounded muffled!! (??)

A bit of absorptive stuff can make a large of difference.


It certainly has on the Jerichos, but madly stuffing speakers full of
wadding is *not* the way to go!


when I bought this house I found a 10 rolls of rockwool type stuff
in a shed that the previous owner hadn't used (he 'forgot' to insulate
the bloody attic!). I needed to move it, and put it into the 'big shed'
where the home cinema lives. It made a massive difference to the sound.
Of course, my wife now thinks I'm totally barking, as she caught
me wandering around with a roll of fluffy stuff over one shoulder
and a finger in one ear...


As you do..... :-)


Maybe she's right.

There you go - funny old world innit? :-)

My wife thinks so, and my brother-in-law is the proof :-)


:-)

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS amp
to show you the difference between your triodes and a
SS amp. This is because the main attributes of the SE
triodes is a high output impedance causing frequency
response anomalies and high harmonic distortion,
especially in the bass. With your horns' high
efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By changing to
an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be reducing the
output impedance and harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10.
Changing to a SS amp, you could reduce output impedance
and distortion by a further factor of 10, but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of
reductions. If you prefer the sound with the ULPP amp,
(and I did when I heard it) that will indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified
with his Argos Special amp last week, is that the
cleaner drive will make the whole thing sound a good
deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive
capability, this may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10
(?) watt SET to sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3
volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp at 3/4 volume...???

Distorted sound is usually perceived as sounding louder than clean sound.

SETs can also cause frequency response contouring that can favor the ranges
where the ear is most sensitive, causing a given amount of power to sound
louder.

Finally, SETs often have poorer power supply regulation, which means that
the can put out more power for short periods of time.

Finally, there seems to be this regrettably tendency for SET fanciers to
judge SS based on rather poor quality SS amps.

"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On Fri, 5 May 2006 11:05:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS
amp to show you the difference between your triodes
and a SS amp. This is because the main attributes of
the SE triodes is a high output impedance causing
frequency response anomalies and high harmonic
distortion, especially in the bass. With your horns'
high efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By
changing to an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be
reducing the output impedance and
harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10.
Changing to a SS amp, you could reduce output
impedance and distortion by a further factor of 10, but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of
reductions. If you prefer the sound with the ULPP amp,
(and I did when I heard it) that will indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified
with his Argos Special amp last week, is that the
cleaner drive will make the whole thing sound a good
deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive
capability, this may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10
(?) watt SET to sound much louder (bigger) at say
1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp at 3/4
volume...???



True though. Play a clean and a distorted piece at
precisely the same sound pressure level, and the
distorted one will sound much louder and fuller. I found
this out for myself big time when I got my Stax
electrostatic headphones. At first I was disappointed
that they wouldn't go very loud, then I took them off and
realised they were bellowing.

Yes, this is well-known. Clean, smooth, balanced sound at a given SPL
generally sounds quieter and less dynamic than distorted, unbalanced, rough
sound.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Don Pearce" wrote in message

On Fri, 5 May 2006 11:05:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS
amp to show you the difference between your triodes
and a SS amp. This is because the main attributes of
the SE triodes is a high output impedance causing
frequency response anomalies and high harmonic
distortion, especially in the bass. With your horns'
high efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By
changing to an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be
reducing the output impedance and
harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10.
Changing to a SS amp, you could reduce output
impedance and distortion by a further factor of 10, but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of
reductions. If you prefer the sound with the ULPP amp,
(and I did when I heard it) that will indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified
with his Argos Special amp last week, is that the
cleaner drive will make the whole thing sound a good
deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive
capability, this may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10
(?) watt SET to sound much louder (bigger) at say
1/4-1/3 volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp at 3/4
volume...???



True though. Play a clean and a distorted piece at
precisely the same sound pressure level, and the
distorted one will sound much louder and fuller. I found
this out for myself big time when I got my Stax
electrostatic headphones. At first I was disappointed
that they wouldn't go very loud, then I took them off and
realised they were bellowing.

Yes, this is well-known. Clean, smooth, balanced sound at a given SPL
generally sounds quieter and less dynamic than distorted, unbalanced,
rough sound.


....and which smells of cabbage..??

)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 May 2006 15:10:23 +0100, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:

(Can't believe I said that!! ;-)

Your ULPP valve amps should be close enough to a SS amp
to show you the difference between your triodes and a
SS amp. This is because the main attributes of the SE
triodes is a high output impedance causing frequency
response anomalies and high harmonic distortion,
especially in the bass. With your horns' high
efficiency, output power isn't an issue. By changing to
an ULPP amp with feedback, you will be reducing the
output impedance and harmonic distortion possibly by a factor of 10.
Changing to a SS amp, you could reduce output impedance
and distortion by a further factor of 10, but
this won't be as noticeable as the first lot of
reductions. If you prefer the sound with the ULPP amp,
(and I did when I heard it) that will indicate
the direction I think you should be going.

S.


The big difference, which Keith has already identified
with his Argos Special amp last week, is that the
cleaner drive will make the whole thing sound a good
deal less loud than it sounds with all that SE
distortion present. With speakers of limited drive
capability, this may or may not be a problem.


I can't see how higher distortion figures can cause a 10
(?) watt SET to sound much louder (bigger) at say 1/4-1/3
volume than a 30 (?) watt SS amp at 3/4 volume...???

Distorted sound is usually perceived as sounding louder than clean sound.

SETs can also cause frequency response contouring that can favor the
ranges where the ear is most sensitive, causing a given amount of power to
sound louder.

Finally, SETs often have poorer power supply regulation, which means that
the can put out more power for short periods of time.

Finally, there seems to be this regrettably tendency for SET fanciers to
judge SS based on rather poor quality SS amps.


Arny, mi dear chap - all this palavering!

(I know what you're up to, but it ain't working! If you want a cheap SET you
are going to have to get one from eBay - you can't have one of mine!! ;-)


Go see my sleek new *minimalist* setup - here's the 'digital sector':

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/digitalbitz.JPG

and here's the 'analogue sector':

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/analoguebitz.JPG


Nice, innit? :-)