On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:01:35 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 May 2006 13:33:54 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Its revised my views completely, my advice to anyone looking for good
sound
on the cheap would/will be 'build a pair of speakers and then chuck any
old
kit at them' - I reckon you could get a superb tuner/CDP system going for
less than 200 quid!!


OK - we can stop calling you Grasshopper now; you've graduated.


(Ooh! Does this mean you've got ping-pong balls for eyes? :-)


I did have last weekend when I was headbutted in the nuts by a
two-year-old.


Anyway, I'm not sure I have 'graduated' (I suspect you are referring to the
perennial valve vs, ss argument) - I've recommended cheap (eBay/secondhand)
amps to people for ages. I've long suspected there wasn't much to choose
between ss amps in a given price range and still think they all sound pretty
boring/dull/grey/dreary/barren/bleak on 'normal' speakers whereas, by
contrast, valve amps can be tweaked across a fairly broad range to *tailor*
a particular (more pleasing) sound. But that's not the issue, what is a
revelation to me is just how much the speakers are dictating the final
result from a 'hifi' system - I now believe a ****e pair of speakers
(includes Famous Names) can fatally cripple just about *any* source or
amplifier!!

No, not referring to valves vs SS - that is just preference. More the
fact that there is nothing more to be had from SS by spending more
money. The plateau starts *really* low.

I'm not thumping any particular tub here - I just think it's a pity that
people are unloading a *lot* of money to get something satisfying from a
pair of speakers that ain't *ever* going to deliver the goods when the
solution (OK, not for everybody, possibly) is so damn cheap! If I wuz 10
(OK - 20 or 30....) years younger I would be seriously thinking of producing
a VFM horn speaker on a commercial basis!!

Two things, I think, have steered the modern trends - the inexplicable* need
for unnecessary, loud, pistonic bass in (paradoxically) a small 'user/wife
friendly' enclosure! Consequently amplifiers have to be capable of
outputting three figures of totally unnecessary and expensive watts (in the
average UK room) to get 'em to work at all and that brings a raft of other
considerations into the equation which are simply not of much consequence
when driving sensitive speakers with low-power amps. (Distortion, power
supply issues etc.)

Expensive watts? No, those watts are really, really cheap, especially
for subwoofers that use switching supplies and power amps.

Interesting that there's nothing particularly small about 'high end'
speakers, innit?

Some friends of mine have Willson Maxx speakers. They weigh about half
a ton and sound equally good when bending the walls or barely
murmuring. They also stand about five feet high.


*Actually, not that inexplicable, given the nature of much modern *tribal*
music....!!


Truth.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 May 2006 16:01:35 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


(Ooh! Does this mean you've got ping-pong balls for eyes? :-)


I did have last weekend when I was headbutted in the nuts by a
two-year-old.


Nasty...

(When that happens it's faster than a lightning strike, innit? :-)


No, not referring to valves vs SS - that is just preference.


Agreed.



More the
fact that there is nothing more to be had from SS by spending more
money. The plateau starts *really* low.


Yes, well under a hundred quid from I can see of it!!


Two things, I think, have steered the modern trends - the inexplicable*
need
for unnecessary, loud, pistonic bass in (paradoxically) a small 'user/wife
friendly' enclosure! Consequently amplifiers have to be capable of
outputting three figures of totally unnecessary and expensive watts (in
the
average UK room) to get 'em to work at all and that brings a raft of other
considerations into the equation which are simply not of much consequence
when driving sensitive speakers with low-power amps. (Distortion, power
supply issues etc.)

Expensive watts? No, those watts are really, really cheap, especially
for subwoofers that use switching supplies and power amps.



Well, I reckon a 30 wpc amp will work out at about 2 to 4 quid per watt, but
the trouble is you *need* 100+ watts these days (ludicrous) and then I
reckon you are looking at 5 times that sort of money *at least* for similar
(construction/appearance/appointments) 'assembly line' amps....??



Interesting that there's nothing particularly small about 'high end'
speakers, innit?

Some friends of mine have Willson Maxx speakers. They weigh about half
a ton and sound equally good when bending the walls or barely
murmuring. They also stand about five feet high.


My point entirely..... :-)

"Keith G" wrote


Well, I reckon a 30 wpc amp will work out at about 2 to 4 quid per watt,
but the trouble is you *need* 100+ watts these days (ludicrous) and then I
reckon you are looking at 5 times that sort of money *at least* for
similar (construction/appearance/appointments) 'assembly line' amps....??


No, that stinks - what I meant was a 30 watt amp will cost somewhere around
a hundred nicker (or even less, it seems), a 100+ watt amp will likely cost
500 quid or more. (ie 5 times the price!!)

On Fri, 19 May 2006 19:02:31 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

Well, I reckon a 30 wpc amp will work out at about 2 to 4 quid per watt, but
the trouble is you *need* 100+ watts these days (ludicrous) and then I
reckon you are looking at 5 times that sort of money *at least* for similar
(construction/appearance/appointments) 'assembly line' amps....??

Untrue for subs, Keith. You can buy a 500 watt 'plate' amp with active
crossover and all necessary connections and controls, for less then
three hundred quid. Just the job for getting deep, clean bass down to
20Hz at decent SPLs from an 18" cube. Also one of the last remaining
areas where the home builder can beat the commercial stuff.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 May 2006 19:02:31 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

Well, I reckon a 30 wpc amp will work out at about 2 to 4 quid per watt,
but
the trouble is you *need* 100+ watts these days (ludicrous) and then I
reckon you are looking at 5 times that sort of money *at least* for
similar
(construction/appearance/appointments) 'assembly line' amps....??

Untrue for subs, Keith. You can buy a 500 watt 'plate' amp with active
crossover and all necessary connections and controls, for less then
three hundred quid. Just the job for getting deep, clean bass down to
20Hz at decent SPLs from an 18" cube. Also one of the last remaining
areas where the home builder can beat the commercial stuff.


The thing with home builders is that just about all of them think they are
beating the commercial stuff or I guess they wouldn't bother??

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and are well
aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial producers on a cost
basis if their own labour was priced into the equation....!!??

Keith G wrote:
The thing with home builders is that just about all of them think they are
beating the commercial stuff or I guess they wouldn't bother??

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and are well
aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial producers on a cost
basis if their own labour was priced into the equation....!!??


Some people want to climb a mountain because it is there. The people
that put a wall around that idea don't understand the enjoyment one gets
in making the journey - no matter how ill looking the end looks (or not!)

I take my hat off to this person and many like her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth

DIY electronics rules forever!

--
Adrian C

Adrian C wrote:
Keith G wrote:
The thing with home builders is that just about all of them think they
are beating the commercial stuff or I guess they wouldn't bother??

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and
are well aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial
producers on a cost basis if their own labour was priced into the
equation....!!??

Some people want to climb a mountain because it is there. The people
that put a wall around that idea don't understand the enjoyment one gets
in making the journey - no matter how ill looking the end looks (or not!)

I take my hat off to this person and many like her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth

DIY electronics rules forever!

Absolutely!

Like many of my generation I got into electronics through the DIY route,
trailing round the component shops in Lisle St in London, falling over
the ladies of the night in our search for some particular component!
Sadly, now, just buying components is a trial in itself. It has to be
mail-order or forget it. One notable exception is the wonderful emporium
of Gee's in Cambridge. A real old-fashioned component shop staffed by a
great guy who's been there since Schottky was a lad.

Sadly building one's own stuff from scratch is a lot more expensive than
buying it built. Stewart mentioned buying plate amplifiers for
sub-woofers, which is fine, but if you want to make your own amplifiers
you end up spending a lot more than buying one. Keith's own experience
with the POS amplifiers shows this up well. There's no way you can even
buy the box for the price of the complete unit from Comet, Argos or whoever.

I hope there will always be a DIY sector interested in building stiff
not because it's cheaper but because it's a lot more satisfying.

More power to your soldering iron.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote


Sadly building one's own stuff from scratch is a lot more expensive than
buying it built. Stewart mentioned buying plate amplifiers for
sub-woofers, which is fine, but if you want to make your own amplifiers
you end up spending a lot more than buying one. Keith's own experience
with the POS amplifiers shows this up well. There's no way you can even
buy the box for the price of the complete unit from Comet, Argos or
whoever.


I would just like to point out that my recent excursion into the cheap 'n'
cheerful Argos kit is just another of my 'investigative/curiosity' trips and
I wouldn't claim that this sort of kit (almost toys, if you go by price)
would satisfy many people - the price/POQ alone will prevent many from
taking it seriously or being content with it on a long-term basis, I would
guess. Take it from me that the sound quality is well up snuff compared with
what cheaper 'mid-fi' kit I've heard (including the Roksan Kandy mentioned
elsewhere) and the build quality is not far (if at all) behind, although
only time will tell in respect of durability....??

(At the end of the day *cheap* never really does anybody any favours -
factor life, but if the cheap stuff is at least OK/usable, gets people
*into* decent sound and possibly starts them off on an upgrade path (groan)
it possibly isn't completely bad news for the industry....??)



I hope there will always be a DIY sector interested in building stiff not
because it's cheaper but because it's a lot more satisfying.


Well, the diyaudio.com forum:

http://www.diyaudio.com/index.php?s=...857351d6501ec0

claims 54,824 members and there are *countless* other such forums (fori?
fora?) on the Net these days, so I guess it's not looking too bad! (Plus it
seems that there's plenty of people ready to *tweak* just about any bit of
electronics kit you can get these days - audio, AV, TV and computer!!)



More power to your soldering iron.


Ooh, er!! Steady on, old bean!! :-)

On Sat, 20 May 2006 19:04:17 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Adrian C wrote:
Keith G wrote:
The thing with home builders is that just about all of them think they
are beating the commercial stuff or I guess they wouldn't bother??

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and
are well aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial
producers on a cost basis if their own labour was priced into the
equation....!!??

Some people want to climb a mountain because it is there. The people
that put a wall around that idea don't understand the enjoyment one gets
in making the journey - no matter how ill looking the end looks (or not!)

I take my hat off to this person and many like her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth

DIY electronics rules forever!

Absolutely!

Like many of my generation I got into electronics through the DIY route,
trailing round the component shops in Lisle St in London, falling over
the ladies of the night in our search for some particular component!
Sadly, now, just buying components is a trial in itself. It has to be
mail-order or forget it. One notable exception is the wonderful emporium
of Gee's in Cambridge. A real old-fashioned component shop staffed by a
great guy who's been there since Schottky was a lad.

Sadly building one's own stuff from scratch is a lot more expensive than
buying it built. Stewart mentioned buying plate amplifiers for
sub-woofers, which is fine, but if you want to make your own amplifiers
you end up spending a lot more than buying one. Keith's own experience
with the POS amplifiers shows this up well. There's no way you can even
buy the box for the price of the complete unit from Comet, Argos or whoever.

I hope there will always be a DIY sector interested in building stiff
not because it's cheaper but because it's a lot more satisfying.

Indeed it is - been there done that lotsa times. However, in the 21st
century, it can *not* get you better performance.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 20 May 2006 18:45:18 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

Keith G wrote:
The thing with home builders is that just about all of them think they are
beating the commercial stuff or I guess they wouldn't bother??

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and are well
aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial producers on a cost
basis if their own labour was priced into the equation....!!??


Some people want to climb a mountain because it is there. The people
that put a wall around that idea don't understand the enjoyment one gets
in making the journey - no matter how ill looking the end looks (or not!)

Sure they do - but they also understand that a home-built car will not
win at Le Mans.............

I take my hat off to this person and many like her.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeri_Ellsworth

DIY electronics rules forever!

Kudos to a fine example of the best of US 'can do' thinking, but note
that she now works as a 'consultant'.............
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering