| Page 1 of 2 | 1 | 2 |
|
|
|
arcam advice please
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. |
arcam advice please
wrote in message oups.com... A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? I'll know later, when I get it hooked up but I'm busy atm - I've just bought a job lot of '100' records (I stopped counting at 150!!) from an 'audiophile' and there are some absolute gems (MFSL stuff &c.) in them - very bargainaceous, so far!! eBay? It's like everything else - OK if you keep your wits about you and don't go paying a 1,000 quid for a chocolate bar which *might* have a ticket to a TV show in it!! I've just taken delivery of a pair of Tannoy 609s which cost a good bit *less* than a pair of 609 stands (only) in an entirely different auction and, feck me if the speakers haven't come with the stands **included**!! (With all the fixings + solid brass banana plug adaptors!! Wot a nice surprise!! ;-) (Buggered up now, I wuz going to rip the dual concs out for homebrew, but they look far too good to do that and now there's the stands as well, I reckon I'm stuffed!! :-) |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
In article , Trevor Wilson
writes "Keith G" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external aerial is an excellent source of audio. However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver brings in the best of Europe too!. Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU ?...... So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message .. . "Keith G" wrote Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!! My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( (If I don't play the 'Decrepit Old Fart' card and we get someone in.....!! ;-) |
arcam advice please
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , Trevor Wilson writes "Keith G" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external aerial is an excellent source of audio. However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver brings in the best of Europe too!. Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU ?...... **Maybe, but I really don't know. Trouble is, Australia is so damned big and the population so small, that it doesn't pay to aim too many stellites over the place. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote in message .. . "Keith G" wrote Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!! **It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp. My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( **Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is very clever stuff). http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. (If I don't play the 'Decrepit Old Fart' card and we get someone in.....!! ;-) **I just got back from the masseuse. Lifting 40kg amps again...... -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote in message .. . "Keith G" wrote Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!! **It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp. I don't follow this, and remain pretty confused about the whole SS pantomime. Apart from build quality (that 7-odd kg has to go somewhere) what has that amp got that improves the way it amplifies, and hence sound? On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Well, possibly! Comparing a 100W valve amp and a 140W SS - the valve amp is simply louder. Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( **Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is very clever stuff). http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. Leaf blockage? Rob |
arcam advice please
In article , Trevor Wilson
writes "tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , Trevor Wilson writes "Keith G" wrote in message ... wrote in message oups.com... A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either. Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please. Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external aerial is an excellent source of audio. However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver brings in the best of Europe too!. Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU ?...... **Maybe, but I really don't know. Trouble is, Australia is so damned big and the population so small, that it doesn't pay to aim too many stellites over the place. Humm Thought that something like that for covering very large areas would be ideal.. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message .. . "Keith G" wrote OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!! **It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp. What will it give me that I don't already have with the 655? And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Believe it/don't believe it - it matters not a jot to I.... (That's polite for 'who gives a ****?' - I've had a number of people here who have been amazed at the sound levels from the SETs, including one or two from here!! ;-) Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. What amps are not 'decent' - you saying the Denon 655 isn't? How about the Argos amp? Ever heard either one...?? No, I thought not..... Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. Sure, that was 15 years or more ago..... They always sounded better than they went. Yep. That one was 1.5 litres in a kiddicart - far too much power for the wooden brakes it had!! Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH Yeah, sure.... and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Oil leaks (within reason) are like surface noise (within reason) on vinyl - bothers the crap out of some people, others not at all.... http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. Keep it real. In the UK you can get a 'squashed' plastic mesh tube (creates an oval cross section) for *coppers* which will do the same job.... |
arcam advice please
"tony sayer" wrote writes Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... So what are you two saying between you? Accurate = unpleasant??? (I've never heard any Audiolab gear myself and I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other...???) |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... Keep it real. In the UK you can get a 'squashed' plastic mesh tube (creates an oval cross section) for *coppers* which will do the same job.... **Tried it. It works, sort of. Probably OK for your girly, Pommy trees, but not for good old Aussie gums. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
In article , Keith G
writes "tony sayer" wrote writes Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... So what are you two saying between you? Accurate = unpleasant??? (I've never heard any Audiolab gear myself and I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other...???) Accurate.. Course its very boring, bland, neutral, and as you say Grey.. Thats what I like about it:)) -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
"tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G writes "tony sayer" wrote writes Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... So what are you two saying between you? Accurate = unpleasant??? (I've never heard any Audiolab gear myself and I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other...???) Accurate.. Course its very boring, bland, neutral, ??? Streuth, I'll give it a miss then, if that's alright with you!! ;-) and as you say Grey.. Thats what I like about it:)) OK, let's try a little *accuracy* instead of just throwing the word around - I never said they were grey (How could I? I've never heard one - see above!) what I said was "I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other"... Big difference... |
arcam advice please
In article , Keith G
writes "tony sayer" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G writes "tony sayer" wrote writes Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... So what are you two saying between you? Accurate = unpleasant??? (I've never heard any Audiolab gear myself and I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other...???) Accurate.. Course its very boring, bland, neutral, ??? Streuth, I'll give it a miss then, if that's alright with you!! ;-) and as you say Grey.. Thats what I like about it:)) OK, let's try a little *accuracy* instead of just throwing the word around - I never said they were grey (How could I? I've never heard one - see above!) what I said was "I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other"... Big difference... Well I suppose I like to hear the music and nothing else. I don't like to hear CD players, Amps, and speakers etc... Just my idea of how it ought be;)...... -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
"tony sayer" wrote Well I suppose I like to hear the music and nothing else. I don't like to hear CD players, Amps, and speakers etc... Just my idea of how it ought be;)...... I can listen to bits of kit when making comparisons or I can forget all that and hear only the music - it ain't hard to do. (Bit like *watching* the windscreen wipers or not even seeing them, when driving in the rain, I suppose...??) Anyway, whatever turns you on - my wish is only that you enjoy your music. I enjoy mine be it on the main system, secondary (SS) system, in the bathroom on the radio or even in the car!! It's years since I heard a bandstand outdoors - they can be very effective if the wind's in the right direction and I haven't heard a 'live gig' in living memory (includes Ely catherdral) that I'd swap my valves and vinyl for!! (Incorrigible, ain't I...?? ;-) |
arcam advice please
In article , Rob
wrote: [snip] On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I'm not sure which "technical people" would say that. In reality some other conditions might need to be satisfied before amps would "sound indentical" in use. However see below... :-) I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! The problem is that although there are many, many such "reviews and anecdotes", there seems to be a dearth of any reliable evidence to support such claims in many cases. Magazine reviewers often make statements about the differences they (claim they) can hear between amps. But when listening comparison tests have been carried out which conform to some fairly basic requirements, they seem to be unable to tell one amp from another *simply on the basis of the sounds*. Thus for all we know they are responding to other 'differences' which have nothing to do with the amps as such, or to the name badges... Alas, if the reviewers had to start saying they couldn't generally hear any such differences, they may find they'd have to write about something else... :-) Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
arcam advice please
In article , Keith G
writes "tony sayer" wrote Well I suppose I like to hear the music and nothing else. I don't like to hear CD players, Amps, and speakers etc... Just my idea of how it ought be;)...... I can listen to bits of kit when making comparisons or I can forget all that and hear only the music - it ain't hard to do. (Bit like *watching* the windscreen wipers or not even seeing them, when driving in the rain, I suppose...??) Anyway, whatever turns you on - my wish is only that you enjoy your music. I enjoy mine be it on the main system, secondary (SS) system, in the bathroom on the radio or even in the car!! It's years since I heard a bandstand outdoors - they can be very effective if the wind's in the right direction and I haven't heard a 'live gig' in living memory (includes Ely catherdral) that I'd swap my valves and vinyl for!! (Incorrigible, ain't I...?? ;-) Yes..try it sometime, Ely that is, very uplifting the sound the) Hope to see some of U at the odd prom:))) -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 20:52:17 +0100, tony sayer
wrote: Hope to see some of U at the odd prom:))) What day is that one on? d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
arcam advice please
In article , Don Pearce
writes On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 20:52:17 +0100, tony sayer wrote: Hope to see some of U at the odd prom:))) What day is that one on? Dunno Don.. one with an odd day in it eh?.. d -- Tony Sayer |
arcam advice please
"Rob" wrote in message ... Trevor Wilson wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote in message .. . "Keith G" wrote Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? **Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth either. So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp. OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!! **It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp. I don't follow this, and remain pretty confused about the whole SS pantomime. Apart from build quality (that 7-odd kg has to go somewhere) what has that amp got that improves the way it amplifies, and hence sound? **Quite a bit, actually. It is not all that difficult to coax bad behaviour from an amplifier which performs perfectly into a perfectly resistive load. Since few loudspeakers act like resistors, you can readily appreciate why amplifier can sound different, yet measure similarly. On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. **The magic words in this statement a "...are properly designed and manufactured.." On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! **Sure. Measuring speakers into actual loudspeakers can reveal differences which may be quite audible. My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Well, possibly! Comparing a 100W valve amp and a 140W SS - the valve amp is simply louder. **Sometimes, yes. But Keith was talking about an EIGHT WATT amp vs a 50 Watt amp. BIG difference. The reality is that the SPL difference between two, otherwise identical, 100 Watt and 140 Watt amps will be barely audible. The differences you refer to, with valve amps are mostly as follows: 1) Valve amps tend to clip (Voltage limit) rather gracefully. Thus they can be driven further into clipping, without obvious 'nastiness' and an increase in average SPL. 2) Valve amps tend to possess a more benign current limit characteristic, due to the abscence of current limit systems, which are normally used in (BJT) transistor amps. 3) Valve amps, by virtue of their higher Voltages, tend to have quite large energy storage systems (the equation is: 1/2CV^2), though the actual capacitance seems to be quite small. Additionally, the capacitors used in valve amps tend to possess lower ESL figures. 4) Valve amps require the use of large power transformers, in order to supply filament supplies. This means more iron and thus energy storage in the power transformer itself. 1) Can be compensated for with transistor amps, via several mechanisms, but rarely is. 2) Can be compensated for, but it rarely done in transistor amps. 3) Can be compensated for, by adding more, small value capacitors. 4) Can be compensated for by using larger transformers. It's not that difficult. The manufacturer needs to spend a little money on the design. IOW: In general terms, if the manufacturer has performed the above and the consumer is willing to spend more money, a 100 Watt transistor amp will sound just as loud as a 100 Watt valve amp. It's all about money. Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the transistor amp sounds worse, even though it was half the price. Sheesh! Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( **Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is very clever stuff). http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. Leaf blockage? **Yup. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Rob wrote: [snip] On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I'm not sure which "technical people" would say that. In reality some other conditions might need to be satisfied before amps would "sound indentical" in use. However see below... :-) Well, and would you believe it, I can't find the reference. It was one of those huge threads on this ng about 2 years ago, and it included that nugget of information which went unchallenged. I think, ahem, it was Stewart P. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! The problem is that although there are many, many such "reviews and anecdotes", there seems to be a dearth of any reliable evidence to support such claims in many cases. Magazine reviewers often make statements about the differences they (claim they) can hear between amps. But when listening comparison tests have been carried out which conform to some fairly basic requirements, they seem to be unable to tell one amp from another *simply on the basis of the sounds*. Thus for all we know they are responding to other 'differences' which have nothing to do with the amps as such, or to the name badges... Alas, if the reviewers had to start saying they couldn't generally hear any such differences, they may find they'd have to write about something else... :-) Yes, you're quite right of course. The problem for mugs like me is trying to figure out what, exactly, matters when buying a SS amp. The '3X' rule seemed to make a certain amount of sense at the time, so I banked that as 'significant variable'. I'm not sure any domestic amp at less than house prices actually does this 3X thing. Having read a few reviews with this in mind manufacturers tend to, for example, shift the distortion decimal point one place to the right when quoting power at lower impedences, or simply (and modestly) underspecify the 8 ohm figure to 'reveal' the magic 'doubling up' (Krell comes to mind). I have to say I'm pretty sure I can hear differences between amplifiers that should sound the same, particularly at louder volumes. Thing is, if I can - and I'm not taking that as a given! - why? Rob |
arcam advice please
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message snip I don't follow this, and remain pretty confused about the whole SS pantomime. Apart from build quality (that 7-odd kg has to go somewhere) what has that amp got that improves the way it amplifies, and hence sound? **Quite a bit, actually. It is not all that difficult to coax bad behaviour from an amplifier which performs perfectly into a perfectly resistive load. Since few loudspeakers act like resistors, you can readily appreciate why amplifier can sound different, yet measure similarly. Readily appreciate eh :-) On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. **The magic words in this statement a "...are properly designed and manufactured.." I think the point here is that virtually all amplifiers from major manufacturers are properly designed and manufactured - that's what I'm led to believe. On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! **Sure. Measuring speakers into actual loudspeakers can reveal differences which may be quite audible. That sounds fair enough - is there a particular measurement that stands out? My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Well, possibly! Comparing a 100W valve amp and a 140W SS - the valve amp is simply louder. **Sometimes, yes. But Keith was talking about an EIGHT WATT amp vs a 50 Watt amp. BIG difference. The reality is that the SPL difference between two, otherwise identical, 100 Watt and 140 Watt amps will be barely audible. The differences you refer to, with valve amps are mostly as follows: 1) Valve amps tend to clip (Voltage limit) rather gracefully. Thus they can be driven further into clipping, without obvious 'nastiness' and an increase in average SPL. 2) Valve amps tend to possess a more benign current limit characteristic, due to the abscence of current limit systems, which are normally used in (BJT) transistor amps. 3) Valve amps, by virtue of their higher Voltages, tend to have quite large energy storage systems (the equation is: 1/2CV^2), though the actual capacitance seems to be quite small. Additionally, the capacitors used in valve amps tend to possess lower ESL figures. 4) Valve amps require the use of large power transformers, in order to supply filament supplies. This means more iron and thus energy storage in the power transformer itself. 1) Can be compensated for with transistor amps, via several mechanisms, but rarely is. 2) Can be compensated for, but it rarely done in transistor amps. 3) Can be compensated for, by adding more, small value capacitors. 4) Can be compensated for by using larger transformers. It's not that difficult. The manufacturer needs to spend a little money on the design. IOW: In general terms, if the manufacturer has performed the above and the consumer is willing to spend more money, a 100 Watt transistor amp will sound just as loud as a 100 Watt valve amp. It's all about money. Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the transistor amp sounds worse, even though it was half the price. Sheesh! Yes, OK :-) What I'm driving at is trying to understand the thing that matters - the 'several mechanisms' you refer to. We're (non-techs) given a set of variables: price, brand (I'd lump kudos, heritage and so on here), degrees of minimalism, weight, looks, reviews and electrical specifications. Is there any decent logic that could help determine which matter? Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( **Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is very clever stuff). http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. Leaf blockage? **Yup. I can relate to this having just moved to a house with wooden gutters in the city of trees ;-) Rob |
arcam advice please
In article , Rob
wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: The problem is that although there are many, many such "reviews and anecdotes", there seems to be a dearth of any reliable evidence to support such claims in many cases. [snip] Yes, you're quite right of course. The problem for mugs like me is trying to figure out what, exactly, matters when buying a SS amp. Yes. Alas, the root of the problem is that the 'reviewer' may be so eager to fill the 'review' with his opinions (for which he may have no reliable evidence, or apply in his situation but not yours) that he may simply not bother to provide some simpler info that would help you make such decisions. Readers are then left to 'guess' or simply take the opinions of the review as if they were a guide... The '3X' rule seemed to make a certain amount of sense at the time, so I banked that as 'significant variable'. For someone *making* power amplifiers it may make sense to design the amp to be able to deliver high load currents and maintain its voltage output into 'low loads'. This is because the designer/maker don't know what speakers all the customers will be using, so have to cater for a range. But for the *user* if they had the relevant information about their speakers, and the amp, they could decide how relevant this would be for them. Alas, the reviews or manufacturer info may not tell you... I'm not sure any domestic amp at less than house prices actually does this 3X thing. You can get quite close to it - provided you have a good power supply and output devices able to deliver high currents. Also larger heatsinks if the demand is to be more than for brief peaks. Alas, this means that all customers have to pay for these things even if only some of them require them in reality. Hence the temptation for makers to shave away any 'overkill' which most users may never actually require. [snip] I have to say I'm pretty sure I can hear differences between amplifiers that should sound the same, particularly at louder volumes. Thing is, if I can - and I'm not taking that as a given! - why? Can't say without much more in the way of specific information. There are various possible reasons, but without a lot of details I couldn't say if any of them are relevant. Speculation without data may simply confuse the issue. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote **Sometimes, yes. But Keith was talking about an EIGHT WATT amp vs a 50 Watt amp. BIG difference. The reality is that the SPL difference between two, otherwise identical, 100 Watt and 140 Watt amps will be barely audible. The differences you refer to, with valve amps are mostly as follows: OK, to reduce the 'exaggeration' somewhat - the SET in question is actually rated at 10 watts (?) by the manufacturer - see the cut and paste from the eBay auction on my webpage: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/bez/bezt3b-3.htm .....and it is certain that it blows the 30W amp away. The *impression* is that it would blow the 50W amp away also, but I concede this is probably unlikely and haven't made a direct comparison. It is not the *loudness* it is the *vastness* of the sound from valves - subtle difference. But I posted here a while back that two electricians working here respectively guessed my 2A3 SET (4 watts max) to be 100 and 200 watts. OK, they weren't 'audiophiles' but they weren't stupid, either... It's not that difficult. The manufacturer needs to spend a little money on the design. IOW: In general terms, if the manufacturer has performed the above and the consumer is willing to spend more money, a 100 Watt transistor amp will sound just as loud as a 100 Watt valve amp. It's all about money. Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the transistor amp sounds worse, even though it was half the price. Sheesh! Reword that thus: "Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the valve amp sounds better, even though it was double the price." Presents less of a dilemma that way, doesn't it? Now, you're the one to ask Trevor, so tell me... Last night I do believe I got what I suspect* is going to be, yet again, the best sound ever** by driving my 2A3 SET power amp with the Pre Outs from the Denon - gives me the 'valve sound' but much bigger (due to the preamplification, of course) with all mod cons like remote control &c. and the facility to choose the Denon only on other speakers (2 pairs, asitappens) for all day background sound and 'summer running'! So, the question is: Do you think all the 'pre gubbins' - Phono Stage, controls, knobs, switches, sockets &c. would likely be of equal quality to the higher priced models you mentioned? (The Phono Stage does seem very good - certainly good enough for 'background sound', but no comparison with my valve PS yet...) I really only wanted the top half of the amp for serious listening and didn't need/want to pay for unnecessary beef. I'm also gambling that the 'pre' side of an amp like this is going to be effectively *invisible* and I suspect/believe that this valve/SS hybrid combination will be better than the other way round - I've tried a valve pre/SS power combo before and it stinks! (Gives you the worst of both worlds!) *already know, actually - I'm only being cautious because the drivers are only a day old yet. See where 'square becomes round' at the bottom of this page: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm ** Never surrender, never give in - keep spending....!! :-) |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote **Sometimes, yes. But Keith was talking about an EIGHT WATT amp vs a 50 Watt amp. BIG difference. The reality is that the SPL difference between two, otherwise identical, 100 Watt and 140 Watt amps will be barely audible. The differences you refer to, with valve amps are mostly as follows: OK, to reduce the 'exaggeration' somewhat - the SET in question is actually rated at 10 watts (?) by the manufacturer - see the cut and paste from the eBay auction on my webpage: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/bez/bezt3b-3.htm ....and it is certain that it blows the 30W amp away. The *impression* is that it would blow the 50W amp away also, but I concede this is probably unlikely and haven't made a direct comparison. **I also think it unlikely. It is not the *loudness* it is the *vastness* of the sound from valves - subtle difference. But I posted here a while back that two electricians working here respectively guessed my 2A3 SET (4 watts max) to be 100 and 200 watts. OK, they weren't 'audiophiles' but they weren't stupid, either... **Few people can pick the output power ability of an amplifier,in unfamiliar (or familiar) settings. As you are well aware, a few extra dB of speaker efficiency can make things very different indeed. It's not that difficult. The manufacturer needs to spend a little money on the design. IOW: In general terms, if the manufacturer has performed the above and the consumer is willing to spend more money, a 100 Watt transistor amp will sound just as loud as a 100 Watt valve amp. It's all about money. Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the transistor amp sounds worse, even though it was half the price. Sheesh! Reword that thus: "Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the valve amp sounds better, even though it was double the price." Presents less of a dilemma that way, doesn't it? **Indeed, but that is the fact. Dollar for Dollar, a transistor can easily wipe the floor with a valve amp, IF the manufacturer has paid attention to my earlier comments. Most do not. The reality is this: Valve amps are designed in specific ways, which are mostly to do with the expense and limitation inherent to them. Transistor amps are (mostly) designed in specific ways which relate to the low cost of the active devices themselves. Imagine, for a moment, that a transistor amp maunfacturer decided to build his product in such a way that he treated each amplification stage as though is was very expensive to implement. You would have an amplifier which combined the strengths of a valve amp (benign Voltage limiting, non-existent current limiting, huge power supply and load insensitivity) with the obvious strengths normally associated with a transistor amp ('perfect' frequency response, inaudible distortion figures, lack of distortion producing output transformers, etc). THEN you'd have an interseting product. Yes? Now, you're the one to ask Trevor, so tell me... Last night I do believe I got what I suspect* is going to be, yet again, the best sound ever** by driving my 2A3 SET power amp with the Pre Outs from the Denon - gives me the 'valve sound' but much bigger (due to the preamplification, of course) with all mod cons like remote control &c. and the facility to choose the Denon only on other speakers (2 pairs, asitappens) for all day background sound and 'summer running'! So, the question is: Do you think all the 'pre gubbins' - Phono Stage, controls, knobs, switches, sockets &c. would likely be of equal quality to the higher priced models you mentioned? (The Phono Stage does seem very good - certainly good enough for 'background sound', but no comparison with my valve PS yet...) **Fair question. I have not (yet) opened up either of the two Denon amps in question, so I can't comment on the topology, nor the quality of the pots and switches, though it is reasonable to assume that Denon have probably used an Alps 'Blue Velvet' or equivalent pot in the PMA1500AE and a cheap carbon pot in the 655. I'll know soon enough, when they start appearing on my bench for service. I have, however, performed some short listening tests on both amps, using a Thoren turntable, with a couple of nice cartridges. The PMA1500AE blew away the 655. The sound was far less hard on my ears with the 1500, yet, surprisingly, more detailed. I readily admit that I was not only comparing preamp sections, so the test was not as comprehensive as I would like it to be. Ideally, I'd have them in my own system for a few days. Having said that, the difference between the two amps is not subtle. I sugest to you that if you think the 655 is a good amp, then you have not heard very many REALLY good amps yet. I really only wanted the top half of the amp for serious listening and didn't need/want to pay for unnecessary beef. I'm also gambling that the 'pre' side of an amp like this is going to be effectively *invisible* and I suspect/believe that this valve/SS hybrid combination will be better than the other way round - I've tried a valve pre/SS power combo before and it stinks! (Gives you the worst of both worlds!) **I understand that you may not have a lot of experience in choosing a good SS amp yet. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
In article , Keith G
wrote: [snip] ....and it is certain that it blows the 30W amp away. The *impression* is that it would blow the 50W amp away also, but I concede this is probably unlikely and haven't made a direct comparison. It is not the *loudness* it is the *vastness* of the sound from valves - subtle difference. However people are discussing two issues. One is that some amps may actually give indistinguishable results in given conditions of use, and that it is possible to provide information to allow a potential purchaser/user to decide if this is likely when considering a choice between them. The other is that some amps have properties which mean they will provide 'altered' results. The user may or may not prefer this. In both cases, though, the snag is that 'reviews' may simply fail to give the relevant information, and spout a lot of opinions which might either be nonsense or not apply to the potential user's situation. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
arcam advice please
In article , Rob
wrote: Trevor Wilson wrote: **The magic words in this statement a "...are properly designed and manufactured.." I think the point here is that virtually all amplifiers from major manufacturers are properly designed and manufactured - that's what I'm led to believe. It us hard to be sure due to lack of info, but in many cases you are probably correct. However two amplifiers might deliver indistinguishable results under some conditions of use, but give different results in other conditions of use. The most obvious example being a change in speakers and room, leading to much higher power levels being required. **Sure. Measuring speakers into actual loudspeakers can reveal differences which may be quite audible. That sounds fair enough - is there a particular measurement that stands out? For me the obvious ones are the output impedance of the amp, and its ability to deliver high peak or steady currents with minimal buzz/distortion. Some reviews give the 4 (and 2) Ohm power levels as a guide for this, but I would tend to prefer the medium-term current that can be delivered. e.g. something like 'can deliver X amps RMS for 100 ms' with the conditions specified. In some cases you might need to check the stability of the amp, but I'd hope this would rarely be a concern these days. Alas, obtaining a full and useful set of results is time-consuming, and requires both the test gear and the reviewer knowing what the results mean. It also means they might have to explain their usefulness rather than simply giving their 'wine tasting' opinions. It also means editors not worrying that readers would be put off by being expected to read and understand so as to be able to decide for themselves. Simpler just to present a 'golden eared opinion'... Even if it has no actual relevance for the reader. :-/ 1) Valve amps tend to clip (Voltage limit) rather gracefully. Thus they can be driven further into clipping, without obvious 'nastiness' and an increase in average SPL. 2) Valve amps tend to possess a more benign current limit characteristic, due to the abscence of current limit systems, which are normally used in (BJT) transistor amps. 3) Valve amps, by virtue of their higher Voltages, tend to have quite large energy storage systems (the equation is: 1/2CV^2), though the actual capacitance seems to be quite small. In addition, a valve design may store energy in a series inductor in the PSU. However some transistor amps may have quite large amounts of energy and charge stored in the PSU caps - or may simply use a stabilised supply or be able to use an extended portion of the mains waveform. Whatever, it just needs to be 'more than enough' to supply the required audio power. 8-] Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote **Fair question. I have not (yet) opened up either of the two Denon amps in question, so I can't comment on the topology, nor the quality of the pots and switches, though it is reasonable to assume that Denon have probably used an Alps 'Blue Velvet' or equivalent pot in the PMA1500AE and a cheap carbon pot in the 655. I'll know soon enough, when they start appearing on my bench for service. OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? I have, however, performed some short listening tests on both amps, using a Thoren turntable, with a couple of nice cartridges. The PMA1500AE blew away the 655. The sound was far less hard on my ears with the 1500, yet, surprisingly, more detailed. I readily admit that I was not only comparing preamp sections, so the test was not as comprehensive as I would like it to be. Ideally, I'd have them in my own system for a few days. Having said that, the difference between the two amps is not subtle. I sugest to you that if you think the 655 is a good amp, then you have not heard very many REALLY good amps yet. I don't know about it being a *good* amp as such - I'm pleased with it and it's doing what I bought it for well enough, but I wasn't expecting to get the 'best amp in the world' for 200 ackers, believe it or not..... I really only wanted the top half of the amp for serious listening and didn't need/want to pay for unnecessary beef. I'm also gambling that the 'pre' side of an amp like this is going to be effectively *invisible* and I suspect/believe that this valve/SS hybrid combination will be better than the other way round - I've tried a valve pre/SS power combo before and it stinks! (Gives you the worst of both worlds!) **I understand that you may not have a lot of experience in choosing a good SS amp yet. OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon Pioneer Cambridge Audio Sony Yamaha Cyrus Marantz NAD Quad Rotel Technics JVC Nikko Musical Fidelity Acoustic Solutions Parasound Luxman And also heard these: Arcam Roksan Meridian Krell Probably plus a few others I don't remember in each case - and although I loved each and every one of them (almost) at the time, I wasn't really happy until I got my first valve amp. Best of that lot above? Possibly the Meridian Pre/Power Monos, see on the floor in this pic: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/meridians.JPG With a Quad pre/power combo that I heard recently (already forgotten the 'numbers') following very closely, otherwise there's bugger-all to choose between most of them - they all do the job fairly well and I reckon it comes down to what 'bells and whistles (and blue LEDs) you get for your money at the end of the day. (The truth is, you get a better bang for your buck with a Chinese valve amp off eBay these days! ;-) |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote **Fair question. I have not (yet) opened up either of the two Denon amps in question, so I can't comment on the topology, nor the quality of the pots and switches, though it is reasonable to assume that Denon have probably used an Alps 'Blue Velvet' or equivalent pot in the PMA1500AE and a cheap carbon pot in the 655. I'll know soon enough, when they start appearing on my bench for service. OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? **Big mistake. Just listen to one of their HT recievers and compare it to one of Denon's standalone tuners and you'll see what I mean. The standalone tuners are very, very good indeed. Gone are the days when manufactuers used common items in their products. In fact, check the back panel of your 655 and see where it is manufactured. I KNOW that the 1500 originates from Japan. I also know that the previous model used the Alps 'Blue Velvet' volume pot. And anyone who klnows these things, knows that they are a very transparent, long lasting, well matched pot. Standard carbon pots are something else entirely. I have, however, performed some short listening tests on both amps, using a Thoren turntable, with a couple of nice cartridges. The PMA1500AE blew away the 655. The sound was far less hard on my ears with the 1500, yet, surprisingly, more detailed. I readily admit that I was not only comparing preamp sections, so the test was not as comprehensive as I would like it to be. Ideally, I'd have them in my own system for a few days. Having said that, the difference between the two amps is not subtle. I sugest to you that if you think the 655 is a good amp, then you have not heard very many REALLY good amps yet. I don't know about it being a *good* amp as such - I'm pleased with it and it's doing what I bought it for well enough, but I wasn't expecting to get the 'best amp in the world' for 200 ackers, believe it or not..... **I believe that you will go out of your way to ensure that you never hear something truly special, if it contains transistors. I really only wanted the top half of the amp for serious listening and didn't need/want to pay for unnecessary beef. I'm also gambling that the 'pre' side of an amp like this is going to be effectively *invisible* and I suspect/believe that this valve/SS hybrid combination will be better than the other way round - I've tried a valve pre/SS power combo before and it stinks! (Gives you the worst of both worlds!) **I understand that you may not have a lot of experience in choosing a good SS amp yet. OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon **From terrible to quite good. Pioneer **From terrible to passable. Cambridge Audio **Passable. Sony **From terrible to quite good. Yamaha **From terrible to passable. Cyrus **Urk. Marantz **From passable to quite good. NAD **Passable to quite good. Quad **Passable. Rotel **Passable to quite good. Technics **Urk (though some of their older models were nice.. JVC **Puke. Nikko **Are they still around? Musical Fidelity **From shocking to passable. Acoustic Solutions **Never heard them. Parasound **From ordinary to passable. Luxman **Their new stuff? Dunno. And also heard these: Arcam **From respectable to brilliant (their 'Ring DAC' equipped CD players are breathtakingly good) Roksan **Not bad. Meridian **Good to very good. Krell **Weird sounding to quite good. Probably plus a few others I don't remember in each case - and although I loved each and every one of them (almost) at the time, I wasn't really happy until I got my first valve amp. Best of that lot above? Possibly the Meridian Pre/Power Monos, see on the floor in this pic: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/meridians.JPG With a Quad pre/power combo that I heard recently (already forgotten the 'numbers') following very closely, otherwise there's bugger-all to choose between most of them - they all do the job fairly well and I reckon it comes down to what 'bells and whistles (and blue LEDs) you get for your money at the end of the day. (The truth is, you get a better bang for your buck with a Chinese valve amp off eBay these days! ;-) **Only in your delusion. I've seen/heard a few and they're simply terrible. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? **Big mistake. Just listen to one of their HT recievers and compare it to one of Denon's standalone tuners and you'll see what I mean. The standalone tuners are very, very good indeed. WTF has that got to do with it? Gone are the days when manufactuers used common items in their products. I doubt it.... In fact, check the back panel of your 655 and see where it is manufactured. I KNOW that the 1500 originates from Japan. So what? You think the Chinese can't *manufacture* or summat?? I also know that the previous model used the Alps 'Blue Velvet' volume pot. And anyone who klnows these things, knows that they are a very transparent, long lasting, well matched pot. Standard carbon pots are something else entirely. Keep it real - I'm talking about a 200 quid amp here, not a 2,000 quid amp... **I believe that you will go out of your way to ensure that you never hear something truly special, if it contains transistors. I would (within reason) but you still haven't suggested one...?? OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon **From terrible to quite good. OK, I'll play! :-) Let me guess - the one I've got comes under the 'terrible' category....??? :-) Pioneer **From terrible to passable. My current one is a SA-510 - does just fine on the computer... Cambridge Audio **Passable. Mine was a P50 back in the 70s (and an A1 Mk III a few years ago) - I liked them. Sony **From terrible to quite good. We have a Sony AV amp (cheap one) - can't fault it... Yamaha **From terrible to passable. Not my favourites but the AV we had amp was OK.... Cyrus **Urk. Yes, I've never been impressed by them... Marantz **From passable to quite good. Couldn't see what all the fuss was about - 6010 series or summat? NAD **Passable to quite good. My youngest son has one and loves it - the matching CD player has got a tricky tray (now ya sees me, now ya don't) but he lnows how to work it!! Quad **Passable. Yes, other than the recent pre/power a guy brought here. That really was quite nice and beautifully built. Rotel **Passable to quite good. Yes, apart from the power amp I had (smallest in the power amp range - about 4 inches high) - the front panel used to pant along with the music!! Technics **Urk (though some of their older models were nice.. Love the amps, always disappointed by the boring sound after a while... JVC **Puke. An old one (huge volume knob) - my nephew has had it for years now and still loves it. Nikko **Are they still around? Wrong section - s/b in the 'heard' section. It belonged to a girlfriend years back and reminds me I've probably heard tins of Trios and other similar amps from back then. Musical Fidelity **From shocking to passable. Swim was in a Clarinet Quintet with Tony Michaelson, but I don't think even that would persuade me to part with the sort of money his stuff costs. What kills me with that bloke is he gazumps all his own 'world-beating, limited edition' (overpriced) offerings with ones he claims to be 'much better' usually about a year or so afterwards!! Acoustic Solutions **Never heard them. Chainstore toys - I've recently bought one. Weedy (hence the Denon) but *magic* VFM (59 quid with digital remote everything). Plenty good enough for a small room, radio/CD use or someone on a budget who doesn't want a smeggy old banger from eBay. (Actually, having said that, its own little Phono Stage was/is surprisingly good - easily as good as a ProJect Phono Box or NAD PP1, which would make the rest of the amp about 9 quid....) Parasound **From ordinary to passable. Very ordinary but powerful. Luxman **Their new stuff? Dunno. No, old one with a fabulous front panel but very bland sound...... And also heard these: Arcam **From respectable to brilliant (their 'Ring DAC' equipped CD players are breathtakingly good) Wouldn't know but what I heard didn't strike me as very good VFM... Roksan **Not bad. Perfectly OK but not cheap.... Meridian **Good to very good. Krell **Weird sounding to quite good. Can't remember the sound now, I just remember being a tad underwhelmed!! (Couldn't have been that good or I would have bought it at the time....) (The truth is, you get a better bang for your buck with a Chinese valve amp off eBay these days! ;-) **Only in your delusion. I've seen/heard a few and they're simply terrible. Doesn't equate with my own experience - but then I'm only interested in the *music* they make, not the components they've used. At the price, they are a near-disposable item... |
arcam advice please
"Rob" wrote in message ... Trevor Wilson wrote: "Rob" wrote in message snip I don't follow this, and remain pretty confused about the whole SS pantomime. Apart from build quality (that 7-odd kg has to go somewhere) what has that amp got that improves the way it amplifies, and hence sound? **Quite a bit, actually. It is not all that difficult to coax bad behaviour from an amplifier which performs perfectly into a perfectly resistive load. Since few loudspeakers act like resistors, you can readily appreciate why amplifier can sound different, yet measure similarly. Readily appreciate eh :-) On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8 ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff nowadays), will sound identical. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw. **The magic words in this statement a "...are properly designed and manufactured.." I think the point here is that virtually all amplifiers from major manufacturers are properly designed and manufactured - that's what I'm led to believe. **Well, I'm here to tell you that is not the case. At least from my perspective, anyway. Most of them perform quite competently and meet most of their specs when driving a resistor. Trouble is, most listeners don't listen with resistors. They use loudspeakers. Additioanlly, manufacturers conveniently omit certain specifications, which don't appear all that flattering to their product, but which may affect sound quality considerably. Damping factor, for instance. Few manufacturers quote it at frequencies in excess of 1kHz. Many amplifiers so-called: 'digital amplifiers' or switching amplifiers are notoriously bad performers in this area. On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different. Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?! **Sure. Measuring speakers into actual loudspeakers can reveal differences which may be quite audible. That sounds fair enough - is there a particular measurement that stands out? **Any of them. Most amplifiers perform worse, when confronted by a complex load impedance. My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG To this: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG (See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-) And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60 quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!) **Yeah, sure. Well, possibly! Comparing a 100W valve amp and a 140W SS - the valve amp is simply louder. **Sometimes, yes. But Keith was talking about an EIGHT WATT amp vs a 50 Watt amp. BIG difference. The reality is that the SPL difference between two, otherwise identical, 100 Watt and 140 Watt amps will be barely audible. The differences you refer to, with valve amps are mostly as follows: 1) Valve amps tend to clip (Voltage limit) rather gracefully. Thus they can be driven further into clipping, without obvious 'nastiness' and an increase in average SPL. 2) Valve amps tend to possess a more benign current limit characteristic, due to the abscence of current limit systems, which are normally used in (BJT) transistor amps. 3) Valve amps, by virtue of their higher Voltages, tend to have quite large energy storage systems (the equation is: 1/2CV^2), though the actual capacitance seems to be quite small. Additionally, the capacitors used in valve amps tend to possess lower ESL figures. 4) Valve amps require the use of large power transformers, in order to supply filament supplies. This means more iron and thus energy storage in the power transformer itself. 1) Can be compensated for with transistor amps, via several mechanisms, but rarely is. 2) Can be compensated for, but it rarely done in transistor amps. 3) Can be compensated for, by adding more, small value capacitors. 4) Can be compensated for by using larger transformers. It's not that difficult. The manufacturer needs to spend a little money on the design. IOW: In general terms, if the manufacturer has performed the above and the consumer is willing to spend more money, a 100 Watt transistor amp will sound just as loud as a 100 Watt valve amp. It's all about money. Valve amp owners seem prepared to spend more on big valve amps than they do on equivalent transistor amps. They then proclaim that the transistor amp sounds worse, even though it was half the price. Sheesh! Yes, OK :-) What I'm driving at is trying to understand the thing that matters - the 'several mechanisms' you refer to. We're (non-techs) given a set of variables: price, brand (I'd lump kudos, heritage and so on here), degrees of minimalism, weight, looks, reviews and electrical specifications. Is there any decent logic that could help determine which matter? **Yep. Use your own speakers, in your own listening room to test. Unless you have a great depth of understanding, the numbers are not all that helpful. In fact, graphs are far more useful, but far less flattering to almost any amplifier. Significantly, most amplifier manufacturers don't publish graphs. Go figure (as they say)...!! (OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the stubborn little horns....) Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-) **Then choose a decent SS amp. Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this car is 30 now!! http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG **Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep the oil where it belonged. Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia boards and guttering now!! :-( **Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is very clever stuff). http://www.easyflow.com.au/ Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer. Leaf blockage? **Yup. I can relate to this having just moved to a house with wooden gutters in the city of trees ;-) **Wooden gutters???!!! What planet do you live on? -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "tony sayer" wrote writes Or even a S/H Audiolab;)) **Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears. Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes;)...... So what are you two saying between you? Accurate = unpleasant??? **Not me. I like accurate amps (and speakers, CD players, et al). What I don't enjoy are amps which sound irritating. Old Audiolabs sound irritating. (I've never heard any Audiolab gear myself and I've never read a description of it that didn't use the word 'grey' somewhere or other...???) **OK. Audiolabs are pretty good amps, vis a vis load tolerance. Not all is bad with them. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , Keith G wrote: [snip] ....and it is certain that it blows the 30W amp away. The *impression* is that it would blow the 50W amp away also, but I concede this is probably unlikely and haven't made a direct comparison. It is not the *loudness* it is the *vastness* of the sound from valves - subtle difference. However people are discussing two issues. One is that some amps may actually give indistinguishable results in given conditions of use, and that it is possible to provide information to allow a potential purchaser/user to decide if this is likely when considering a choice between them. The other is that some amps have properties which mean they will provide 'altered' results. The user may or may not prefer this. I'm not sure what exact points you are replying to - it's not possible to 'flick back' to piece it together. My view on amplifiers is that I believe thay *all* contribute to the 'end product' sound produced in a given situation, whether it be because they have certain characteristics/properties or because they lack them. I'm easy either way and merely build the system using such bits of kit that I think go well together...??? Interestingly, I believe the pundits here have got it the wrong way round - I think you have to spend a lot of money on an SS amp to get the characteristics (that I happen to prefer) which can be found in relatively inexpensive valve amps! That said, when I spend a little money on a modest SS amp I do know what to expect when I use it!! In both cases, though, the snag is that 'reviews' may simply fail to give the relevant information, and spout a lot of opinions which might either be nonsense or not apply to the potential user's situation. Taking it that you mean magazine reviews, I think most 'audio enthusiast old hands' approach them with the same pinch of salt and disregard the purple prose and silly personal opinions. (The facts and figures can be useful if they are *correct* and the pictures are always useful ...) What bothers me is that, nonsense or not (and I suspect a lot of it is), the magazines go a long way to instigating/perpetuating 'schools of thought' and that relative newcomers can be easily persuaded to follow 'collective thinking', prescribed 'upgrade paths' or buy expensive kit they do not need. (None of us are immune to this - there are at least some here who will buy certain names *unheard* whatever the price....) My own researches over the last few years have been to explore the 'VFM' possibilities of cheap and/or secondhand kit (spending far more than the price of a stack of 'mames' in the process) and it has been a lot of fun hearing/seeing very positive reactions to very setups. All very good, but hardly helpful to the industry - the symbiosis that exists between the magazines and the manufacturer is not an unimportant one if it helps the 'audio industry' is to survive. We here all know that 'sound quality' is disappearing fast (call it 'digitisation', if you like :-) and the all-important, spending Joe Ordinaire is being swept down the 'sound is only the *aural* side of AV' gutter..... |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote This crap: My own researches over the last few years have been to explore the 'VFM' possibilities of cheap and/or secondhand kit (spending far more than the price of a stack of 'mames' in the process) and it has been a lot of fun hearing/seeing very positive reactions to very setups. All very good, but hardly helpful to the industry - the symbiosis that exists between the magazines and the manufacturer is not an unimportant one if it helps the 'audio industry' is to survive. It should have been: My own researches over the last few years have been to explore the 'VFM' possibilities of cheap and/or secondhand kit (spending far more than the price of a stack of 'names' in the process) and it has been a lot of fun hearing/seeing very positive reactions to modest setups. All very good, but hardly helpful to the industry - the symbiosis that exists between the magazines and the manufacturer is not an unimportant one if it helps the 'audio industry' is to survive. |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote Taking it that you mean magazine reviews, I think most 'audio enthusiast old hands' approach them with the same pinch of salt and disregard the purple prose and silly personal opinions. (The facts and figures can be useful if they are *correct* and the pictures are always useful ...) What bothers me is that, nonsense or not (and I suspect a lot of it is), the magazines go a long way to instigating/perpetuating 'schools of thought' and that relative newcomers can be easily persuaded to follow 'collective thinking', prescribed 'upgrade paths' or buy expensive kit they do not need. (None of us are immune to this - there are at least some here who will buy certain names *unheard* whatever the price....) As I set about tyding this place up just now (two 'ukranian' visitors here today), it dawned on me that the overpriced, overhyped, overrated Dyson vacuum cleaner (a POS which won't even pull past a piece of furniture without tipping over) with all the appearance of a 'well designed' piece of kit (yellow and grey plastic - it was always good for a Good Housekeeping Design Award swing tag) and its own cult following of well-sold *believers* and is good example of what I attempted to describe above..... |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? **Big mistake. Just listen to one of their HT recievers and compare it to one of Denon's standalone tuners and you'll see what I mean. The standalone tuners are very, very good indeed. WTF has that got to do with it? **Well, everything. Japanese manufacturers tend to keep their premium products distinct from their budget stuff, in terms of component choice and topology. Gone are the days when manufactuers used common items in their products. I doubt it.... **When examining two entirely different ranges of products, it is a fact. In fact, check the back panel of your 655 and see where it is manufactured. I KNOW that the 1500 originates from Japan. So what? You think the Chinese can't *manufacture* or summat?? **They COULD, but they don't. Yet. I also know that the previous model used the Alps 'Blue Velvet' volume pot. And anyone who klnows these things, knows that they are a very transparent, long lasting, well matched pot. Standard carbon pots are something else entirely. Keep it real - I'm talking about a 200 quid amp here, not a 2,000 quid amp... **Is the PMA1500AE 2k Squid? My point is that if you cared to listen to the PMA1500AE, you may well be stunned at how good it is and you may well be persuaded to dump all your notions of SS equipment. **I believe that you will go out of your way to ensure that you never hear something truly special, if it contains transistors. I would (within reason) but you still haven't suggested one...?? **Haven't I? Are you paying attention? OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon **From terrible to quite good. OK, I'll play! :-) Let me guess - the one I've got comes under the 'terrible' category....??? :-) **Nope. It ain't bad. It ain't great though. Pioneer **From terrible to passable. My current one is a SA-510 - does just fine on the computer... Cambridge Audio **Passable. Mine was a P50 back in the 70s (and an A1 Mk III a few years ago) - I liked them. Sony **From terrible to quite good. We have a Sony AV amp (cheap one) - can't fault it... Yamaha **From terrible to passable. Not my favourites but the AV we had amp was OK.... Cyrus **Urk. Yes, I've never been impressed by them... Marantz **From passable to quite good. Couldn't see what all the fuss was about - 6010 series or summat? NAD **Passable to quite good. My youngest son has one and loves it - the matching CD player has got a tricky tray (now ya sees me, now ya don't) but he lnows how to work it!! Quad **Passable. Yes, other than the recent pre/power a guy brought here. That really was quite nice and beautifully built. Rotel **Passable to quite good. Yes, apart from the power amp I had (smallest in the power amp range - about 4 inches high) - the front panel used to pant along with the music!! Technics **Urk (though some of their older models were nice.. Love the amps, always disappointed by the boring sound after a while... JVC **Puke. An old one (huge volume knob) - my nephew has had it for years now and still loves it. Nikko **Are they still around? Wrong section - s/b in the 'heard' section. It belonged to a girlfriend years back and reminds me I've probably heard tins of Trios and other similar amps from back then. Musical Fidelity **From shocking to passable. Swim was in a Clarinet Quintet with Tony Michaelson, but I don't think even that would persuade me to part with the sort of money his stuff costs. What kills me with that bloke is he gazumps all his own 'world-beating, limited edition' (overpriced) offerings with ones he claims to be 'much better' usually about a year or so afterwards!! Acoustic Solutions **Never heard them. Chainstore toys - I've recently bought one. Weedy (hence the Denon) but *magic* VFM (59 quid with digital remote everything). Plenty good enough for a small room, radio/CD use or someone on a budget who doesn't want a smeggy old banger from eBay. (Actually, having said that, its own little Phono Stage was/is surprisingly good - easily as good as a ProJect Phono Box or NAD PP1, which would make the rest of the amp about 9 quid....) Parasound **From ordinary to passable. Very ordinary but powerful. Luxman **Their new stuff? Dunno. No, old one with a fabulous front panel but very bland sound...... **Yep. And also heard these: Arcam **From respectable to brilliant (their 'Ring DAC' equipped CD players are breathtakingly good) Wouldn't know but what I heard didn't strike me as very good VFM... **Their amps are quite respectable, IMO. And, as I stated before, their 'Ring DAC' equipped CD players are astonishingly good. Roksan **Not bad. Perfectly OK but not cheap.... Meridian **Good to very good. Krell **Weird sounding to quite good. Can't remember the sound now, I just remember being a tad underwhelmed!! (Couldn't have been that good or I would have bought it at the time....) (The truth is, you get a better bang for your buck with a Chinese valve amp off eBay these days! ;-) **Only in your delusion. I've seen/heard a few and they're simply terrible. Doesn't equate with my own experience - but then I'm only interested in the *music* they make, not the components they've used. At the price, they are a near-disposable item... **Here's a thought: Compare your cheap, Chinese amps with a known good quality amp. Say, an Audio Research VT100. Then compare the VT100 to a high quality SS amp. Let me know what you find. For me, I find the cheap Chinese amps to sound like crap. They colour the sound to an unnacceptable degree. Their build quality is nothing to write home about and their output transformers (the single, most important part about any valve amp) are crap. A cheap Rotel would nail them to the wall. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
arcam advice please
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? **Big mistake. Just listen to one of their HT recievers and compare it to one of Denon's standalone tuners and you'll see what I mean. The standalone tuners are very, very good indeed. WTF has that got to do with it? **Well, everything. Japanese manufacturers tend to keep their premium products distinct from their budget stuff, in terms of component choice and topology. I'd hardly call a 250 and a 500 quid amp 'premium products'.... Gone are the days when manufactuers used common items in their products. I doubt it.... **When examining two entirely different ranges of products, it is a fact. I'm sure it is for *entirely different ranges of products*.... (????) In fact, check the back panel of your 655 and see where it is manufactured. I KNOW that the 1500 originates from Japan. So what? You think the Chinese can't *manufacture* or summat?? **They COULD, but they don't. Yet. That's Quad, NAD, Audiolab, Mission, Wharfedale, Rogers (et al) in the **** then.... Keep it real - I'm talking about a 200 quid amp here, not a 2,000 quid amp... **Is the PMA1500AE 2k Squid? My point is that if you cared to listen to the PMA1500AE, you may well be stunned at how good it is and you may well be persuaded to dump all your notions of SS equipment. For two pins (and 449 on the Net) it's almost tempting.... (Then I got another bloody amp in my spares cupboard, ain't I....??) Wader minnit - *AE*...?? Not 1500R? What's the difference??? OK, forget that - I found a nice comparator on the Denon UK website. (the 2000AE goes 24 kg eh....??) **I believe that you will go out of your way to ensure that you never hear something truly special, if it contains transistors. I would (within reason) but you still haven't suggested one...?? **Haven't I? Are you paying attention? Sorry, what did you say....??? (I nodded off....) OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon **From terrible to quite good. OK, I'll play! :-) Let me guess - the one I've got comes under the 'terrible' category....??? :-) **Nope. It ain't bad. It ain't great though. I think it's beezer - it fronts my triode power amps up a feck sight better than the EAR Line Stage!! (Another hole in another foot.....) The 2A3 SET, driven by the Pre-Outs from the Denon, on my Jerichos (96 dB) with the new Viston drivers (only 106 quid a side...) is a *terrifying* combination - I haven't even *begun* to take it in yet and the bloody drivers are only 3/4 days old yet!! (Ask Phil here about 'flinching'....!! ;-) Luxman **Their new stuff? Dunno. No, old one with a fabulous front panel but very bland sound...... **Yep. Here it is: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/luxman.JPG Not quite as nice as I remembered it and no remote - so no hard feelings.... **Here's a thought: Compare your cheap, Chinese amps with a known good quality amp. Say, an Audio Research VT100. Then compare the VT100 to a high quality SS amp. Let me know what you find. You're talking like a **** - I wouldn't know where to begin to look for a VT100 and I'm damned if I would chase after one!! I said 'within reason'... For me, I find the cheap Chinese amps to sound like crap. They colour the sound to an unnacceptable degree. Their build quality is nothing to write home about and their output transformers (the single, most important part about any valve amp) are crap. A cheap Rotel would nail them to the wall. It's the British Motorcycle Industry 'Jap Crap' mantra all over again, ain't it...??? |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote The 2A3 SET, driven by the Pre-Outs from the Denon, on my Jerichos (96 dB) with the new Viston drivers (only 106 quid a side...) is a *terrifying* combination - I haven't even *begun* to take it in yet and the bloody drivers are only 3/4 days old yet!! OK, that's *Visaton* and here's a pic of the boxes: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/visaton.JPG Compare the (4") 'Datsun Grilles' with the B200 boxes for an idea of size..... ;-) |
arcam advice please
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote in message ... "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote OK. My suspicion was that, for cost effectiveness, the pre section componentry and circuit might be common to most (if not all) of the range....? **Big mistake. Just listen to one of their HT recievers and compare it to one of Denon's standalone tuners and you'll see what I mean. The standalone tuners are very, very good indeed. WTF has that got to do with it? **Well, everything. Japanese manufacturers tend to keep their premium products distinct from their budget stuff, in terms of component choice and topology. I'd hardly call a 250 and a 500 quid amp 'premium products'.... **There's your problem. You equate price with quality. Gone are the days when manufactuers used common items in their products. I doubt it.... **When examining two entirely different ranges of products, it is a fact. I'm sure it is for *entirely different ranges of products*.... **Good. Now we're getting womewhere. (????) In fact, check the back panel of your 655 and see where it is manufactured. I KNOW that the 1500 originates from Japan. So what? You think the Chinese can't *manufacture* or summat?? **They COULD, but they don't. Yet. That's Quad, NAD, Audiolab, Mission, Wharfedale, Rogers (et al) in the **** then.... **Looks like. Keep it real - I'm talking about a 200 quid amp here, not a 2,000 quid amp... **Is the PMA1500AE 2k Squid? My point is that if you cared to listen to the PMA1500AE, you may well be stunned at how good it is and you may well be persuaded to dump all your notions of SS equipment. For two pins (and 449 on the Net) it's almost tempting.... (Then I got another bloody amp in my spares cupboard, ain't I....??) Wader minnit - *AE*...?? Not 1500R? What's the difference??? **Dunno. I have yet to examine the 1500AE closely. OK, forget that - I found a nice comparator on the Denon UK website. (the 2000AE goes 24 kg eh....??) **I believe that you will go out of your way to ensure that you never hear something truly special, if it contains transistors. I would (within reason) but you still haven't suggested one...?? **Haven't I? Are you paying attention? Sorry, what did you say....??? (I nodded off....) OK, perhaps you could point me in the right direction, I have had various models of the following makes of SS amps (in no special order): Denon **From terrible to quite good. OK, I'll play! :-) Let me guess - the one I've got comes under the 'terrible' category....??? :-) **Nope. It ain't bad. It ain't great though. I think it's beezer - it fronts my triode power amps up a feck sight better than the EAR Line Stage!! **Yeah, well, that would not be difficult. The 1500AE blows away the 655. (Another hole in another foot.....) The 2A3 SET, driven by the Pre-Outs from the Denon, on my Jerichos (96 dB) with the new Viston drivers (only 106 quid a side...) is a *terrifying* combination - I haven't even *begun* to take it in yet and the bloody drivers are only 3/4 days old yet!! (Ask Phil here about 'flinching'....!! ;-) Luxman **Their new stuff? Dunno. No, old one with a fabulous front panel but very bland sound...... **Yep. Here it is: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/luxman.JPG Not quite as nice as I remembered it and no remote - so no hard feelings.... **Jeez! You've got to be kidding! That thing is, what? 30 years old? You've replaced every electrolytic cap in it, haven't you? If you haven't, it's performance will be a long way off par. Even then, I'll betcha it is chocka with crappy electrolytic coupling caps. **Here's a thought: Compare your cheap, Chinese amps with a known good quality amp. Say, an Audio Research VT100. Then compare the VT100 to a high quality SS amp. Let me know what you find. You're talking like a **** - I wouldn't know where to begin to look for a VT100 and I'm damned if I would chase after one!! I said 'within reason'... **I'm talking like a sane person. The VT100 represents, aguably, the pinnnacle of what is possible with a valve power amp. After you compare one to your cheap Chinese amps, you can then make some logical deductions about the quality (or lack thereof) of the comparison amp. For me, I find the cheap Chinese amps to sound like crap. They colour the sound to an unnacceptable degree. Their build quality is nothing to write home about and their output transformers (the single, most important part about any valve amp) are crap. A cheap Rotel would nail them to the wall. It's the British Motorcycle Industry 'Jap Crap' mantra all over again, ain't it...??? **Nope. The BIG difference, was that the Japanese, almost from day one, adopted the mantra: "We must build the best quality we can." A present, China represents a huge, cheap labour force, which allows Western and Japanese companies the capacity to produce existing designs at lower prices. It will not always be so. China can and will produce superior quality products at lower prices. However, all the cheap, Chinese amps I've seen, lack decent quality output transformers. And it is the output transformer which is pivotal to the quality of a valve amplifier. Frankly, I am surprised that you bother arguing this point. And again: It will not always be this way. I purchased some Chinese KT88s some years ago. They were the worst (and I do mean, THE WORST) valves I have ever purchased. Ever. Of the ones which did not fail instantly, the rest enjoyed a very short life span. I tracked down some NOS, MOV KT88s (at huge cost to the client), which are still in service today. Newer Chinese valves are much better, but, IMO, the Russian valves are better still. The Chinese will build decent valve amps, but they do not (IME, do so at present. Purchasers would be much better putting their money towards a (say) Rotel instead. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 12:25 PM. |
|
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0
Copyright ©2004-2006 AudioBanter.co.uk