bi-wire config question
 

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:21 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Secondly, if you were to design the "perfect" 'speaker for my room, that
is exactly what it would be, the "perfect" 'speaker for *my* room, not
yours or anyone else's. You would have to design a different "perfect"
'speaker for every different room.

Can a good violin (and player) sound good (though different) in
different acoustics? Why not a speaker?

bi-wire config question
 

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:51:28 +0100, Laurence Payne
lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:21 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Secondly, if you were to design the "perfect" 'speaker for my room, that
is exactly what it would be, the "perfect" 'speaker for *my* room, not
yours or anyone else's. You would have to design a different "perfect"
'speaker for every different room.

Can a good violin (and player) sound good (though different) in
different acoustics? Why not a speaker?

Yes, but for totally different reasons. The violinist will actually
change the way he performs in response to the different acoustics. The
speaker won't do that - the combination will simply sound different.
In some circumstances it will sound good, in others it won't. There
are plenty of acoustic spaces in which no speaker will ever sound
good.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

bi-wire config question
 

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:21 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:


Secondly, if you were to design the "perfect" 'speaker for my room, that
is exactly what it would be, the "perfect" 'speaker for *my* room, not
yours or anyone else's. You would have to design a different "perfect"
'speaker for every different room.


Can a good violin (and player) sound good (though different) in
different acoustics? Why not a speaker?

Because the purpose of the speaker is to give the illusion that you are in the
concert hall, not that the orchestra is in your lounge (Bose excepted).

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

bi-wire config question
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Laurence Payne wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:21 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:


Secondly, if you were to design the "perfect" 'speaker for my room, that
is exactly what it would be, the "perfect" 'speaker for *my* room, not
yours or anyone else's. You would have to design a different "perfect"
'speaker for every different room.


Can a good violin (and player) sound good (though different) in
different acoustics? Why not a speaker?

Because the purpose of the speaker is to give the illusion that you are in
the
concert hall, not that the orchestra is in your lounge (Bose excepted).



Nicely put.

You will be pleased to know I'm having serious trouble choosing between the
Pinkies and the 609s!!

(Different in minor ways, but *sooo* similar overall....!!)

bi-wire config question
 

In article ,
Cessna172 wrote:
Totally agree. I think Jim is being kind, I would put the differences
as somewhere between imaginary and non-existent, once you do the sums.

Number 1 is correct, as only you with your equipment, cables, room and
furniture can LISTEN to the results. Plenty of sums are done by speaker
manufacturers, to make sure their product is technically brilliant, yet
get them into a room and they will sound anything from horrible to
superb.

I doubt you'll find anyone who would argue with that. Room/speaker
interface is very important and easily demonstrated.

Same with interconnects and cables - use whatever sounds right to you.
Some people prefer the sums, some prefer the sound - it's a personal
thing.

I doubt you'll find anyone who can demonstrate this effect. ;-)

--
*There's two theories to arguing with a woman. Neither one works *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

bi-wire config question
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Cessna172
wrote:
Totally agree. I think Jim is being kind, I would put the
differences as somewhere between imaginary and non-existent, once
you do the sums.

Number 1 is correct, as only you with your equipment, cables, room and
furniture can LISTEN to the results. Plenty of sums are done by
speaker manufacturers, to make sure their product is technically
brilliant, yet get them into a room and they will sound anything from
horrible to superb.

I doubt you'll find anyone who would argue with that. Room/speaker
interface is very important and easily demonstrated.

Alas, the snag in this context is that if there is a problem with the room
acoustics and its interaction with the speaker radiation patterns, then the
sensible way to deal with this is to alter the room acoustics, and/or
speaker radiation pattern - or the speaker/listening positions. Changing
the cabling is unlikely to have any effect - unless some of the cable
involved have extraordinarily inappropriate characteristics.

Same with interconnects and cables - use whatever sounds right to you.
Some people prefer the sums, some prefer the sound - it's a personal
thing.

I doubt you'll find anyone who can demonstrate this effect. ;-)

For me the situation here is, alas, as in so many other areas of audio.
That people say things in reviews, etc, but none of them seem to have ever
been able to show any reliable basis for what they say. I know of no test
on 'bi wiring' that:

1) Ensured those listening had only the sounds produced to go on.

2) Repeated the test enough times, and with a protocol, that allows anyone
to assess the reliability of the reported results.

3) Used a protocol to exclude obvious uncontrolled factors like differences
in volume level.

...and which then gave results that supported the idea that anyone could
tell bi wiring from just using single wiring.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

bi-wire config question
 

aid wrote:

My speakers are three way, so at the moment I have the MF and HF
bridged together & the LF is seperate, is this correct? Or I should I
have the MF AND LF bridged together & the HF seperate? I'm using
Chord Chorus interconnects and Chord Oddessy bi-wire speaker cable.

My gut instinct would be to bridge the HF and MF, with the LF fed
separately. But try both ways and use whichever one you think sounds better.

That's some pretty nice speaker cable too, I'm using Chord Rumour 4
which does sound excellent. What it might be worth doing, depending on
how over the top you want to go, is to tri-wire the speakers. For this
I'd suggest using the Odyssey 4 for LF and MF and Rumour 2 for HF (HF
needs less current so a thinner cable will suffice).

But the bottom line is to do what you think sounds best. You've got to
live with the system, there's no "right" and "wrong" way with some of
these things, it's just what sounds "right" to you.

HTH.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

bi-wire config question
 

Glenn Richards wrote:
aid wrote:

My speakers are three way, so at the moment I have the MF and HF
bridged together & the LF is seperate, is this correct? Or I should I
have the MF AND LF bridged together & the HF seperate? I'm using
Chord Chorus interconnects and Chord Oddessy bi-wire speaker cable.

My gut instinct would be to bridge the HF and MF, with the LF fed
separately. But try both ways and use whichever one you think sounds
better.

That's some pretty nice speaker cable too, I'm using Chord Rumour 4
which does sound excellent. What it might be worth doing, depending on
how over the top you want to go, is to tri-wire the speakers. For this
I'd suggest using the Odyssey 4 for LF and MF and Rumour 2 for HF (HF
needs less current so a thinner cable will suffice).

But the bottom line is to do what you think sounds best. You've got to
live with the system, there's no "right" and "wrong" way with some of
these things, it's just what sounds "right" to you.

HTH.

Are you seriously trying to tell us that tri or bi-wiring makes (or even
can make) a difference? Have you done the sums to see what effect bi or
tri wiring makes?

All you are doing with bi or tri wiring is reducing the resistance from
already low values, increasing the capacitance from normally low values
to still low values, and reducing inductance. Any amplifier/'speaker
combination for which this makes ANY difference is only fit to be used
as a boat anchor.

S.

bi-wire config question
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:


All you are doing with bi or tri wiring is reducing the resistance from
already low values, increasing the capacitance from normally low values
to still low values, and reducing inductance.


If you use the same type/length of cable for 'bi wiring' to each speaker
unit as you did for 'normal wiring' and don't link the cables together at
the speaker end, then the cable resistance, etc, will so far as the
individual speaker units are concerned, be the same as for 'normal wiring'.
If the amp has a minimal source impedance, then each unit will be unaware
of the existence of the 'other cables' and so see the same cable as if it
were connected in the 'normal' manner.

You *will* no longer by shunting this with the impedance of the 'other
speaker units'. But since this is likely to have an impedance which is much
larger than that of the cable and amp, it is questionable if this is of any
significance. However if the cable series resistance and/or amp output
resistance are high, the frequency response may alter in a way that depends
on the input impedances of the sections of the speaker system.

FWIW I did do an analysis of these effects. People can read this and decide
for themselves if they are likely to have any relevance.

To see the analysis, go to the 'Scots Guide' (URL in my sig), use the link
to the 'Analog and Audio' section, scroll down that page, and use the links
to the pages on "An explanation of bi-wiring", etc, to see the analysis and
results. These show that bi wiring can change the frequency response - but
by only a small amount even when using cables of exceptionally high series
resistance. Hence changes in measured behaviour are possible. But are they
audible in any sensible arrangement?... My reaction tends to be that if I
wanted a change in frequency response of a few tenths of a dB I'd move my
head slightly whilst listening. :-)

Above analysis notwithstanding, I've never seen a single report of a series
of listening tests that showed any signs that such effects were audible,
and which were done in a way that gave the results any assessable
reliability.

Any amplifier/'speaker combination for which this makes ANY difference
is only fit to be used as a boat anchor.

Given the series resistances required, the cables involved might be too
light to be a decent anchor. :-) However very long thin cables, and an
amp with loads of metalwork might fit the bill. You might therefore wish to
use a poor valve amp and some bell wire for this application. Odd how heavy
'vacuum' is... ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

bi-wire config question
 

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
The amplifier will see the capacitance of two speaker cables and in this
sense they are in parallel which will add the capacitance of each. The
cables are not connected together at the speaker end and don't cover the
same frequency spectrum so in no sense are they in parallel for current
flow to the speaker.

Unless the cables have significant capacitance inductance resistance etc
they are effectively in parallel at the speaker end. And are carrying
exactly the same signal since they are paralleled at the source of that
signal.

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.