On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:23:43 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:



Glenn Richards wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

OK Glenn, maybe you can't be bothered (yeah, right) but I can. I've
done the work for you and simulated the two effects - biwire, or
parallel wire, joined at the far end - in PSpice. The results
vindicate my position completely.

No they don't.

You've only placed a "lossy" cable on one leg of the speaker cable. So
you've got effectively a 5 metre run of cable from the positive speaker
output, then a short (as close to zero ohms as possible) run back to the
ground point on the amplifier.

God almighty ! Don't you know that's the same as modelling with the resistance
equally distributed ?

Graham

He knows nothing of how to determine what is a legitimate abstraction
for modelling purposes. He doesn't carry the pictures in his head of
how things interact, where currents flow etc.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Eiron wrote:

Come up with a computer model that matches the observed effects and
I might start taking you seriously.
Demonstrate your observed effects in a DBT test with an independent
witness and we might start taking you seriously.

Already been through all that some time ago (albeit single blind tests).
If there really is no difference then you won't be able to hear anything
on a single blind test, never mind double blind.

But apparently the way I carried out the test was invalid according to
some technicality made up by someone in here (I forget who). Like, who
elected you supreme commander anyway?

And once again a discussion in here turns into a slanging match.
sarcasm Would you all kindly shut the f*** up, your constant bitching
is drowning out the music. /sarcasm

Anyway... as long as the self-appointed high and mighty brigade persist
on rubbishing anyone saying they've heard differences like this, those
of us that can (and do) hear a difference in the sound will continue to
regard the likes of Don Pearce etc as sanctimonious hypocrites.

The fact remains that many people can and do hear differences between
different cables. As I've said before, I was always highly sceptical
until I was given a very convincing demonstration of the differences.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 21:11:47 +0100, Glenn Richards
wrote:

Eiron wrote:

Come up with a computer model that matches the observed effects and
I might start taking you seriously.
Demonstrate your observed effects in a DBT test with an independent
witness and we might start taking you seriously.

Already been through all that some time ago (albeit single blind tests).
If there really is no difference then you won't be able to hear anything
on a single blind test, never mind double blind.

But apparently the way I carried out the test was invalid according to
some technicality made up by someone in here (I forget who). Like, who
elected you supreme commander anyway?

And once again a discussion in here turns into a slanging match.
sarcasm Would you all kindly shut the f*** up, your constant bitching
is drowning out the music. /sarcasm

Anyway... as long as the self-appointed high and mighty brigade persist
on rubbishing anyone saying they've heard differences like this, those
of us that can (and do) hear a difference in the sound will continue to
regard the likes of Don Pearce etc as sanctimonious hypocrites.

The fact remains that many people can and do hear differences between
different cables. As I've said before, I was always highly sceptical
until I was given a very convincing demonstration of the differences.

Glenn, you have never been one to let anything as mundane as a fact
get in the way of your beliefs. Nice line in sanctimonious piety, by
the way.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:

Glenn, you have never been one to let anything as mundane as a fact
get in the way of your beliefs. Nice line in sanctimonious piety, by
the way.

More projecting I see...

But since you're bringing facts into this, how about this:

Fact - many people (myself included) can and do hear differences in
cable sound.

Fact - other people can't. That doesn't mean those differences aren't
real. It just means that some people can't hear them.

A case in point being my ex-girlfriend. She honestly could not tell the
difference between a £99 midi system and 5 grand's worth of separates.
Other than "your system goes louder".

Yes, that's correct, the only difference she could hear between her £99
midi system and my Arcam setup was that mine "goes louder".

Now on the rare occasions I heard her low-fi all I could hear was
speaker cabinet resonance, harmonic distortion and a complete lack of
dynamics. But she couldn't hear the difference.

Those differences were there all right. She just couldn't hear them.

And until people like you accept that, these pointless slanging matches
will continue. Let me give you a quick lesson:

Correct: "I've never heard a difference between speaker cables."

Incorrect: "Speaker cables make no difference to the sound."

The important thing to remember is that not observing an effect does not
in this case disprove, but observing the effect proves. The only time a
lack of observing an effect will disprove is if the results are 100%
consistent - by which I mean independent and repeatable. Which clearly
they aren't, as so many people can hear these differences.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

Bob Latham wrote:

Just for a moment or two can we put aside blind listening test etc.
and imaginings please.

You'll never be able to do that. You'll always get the likes of Don
Pearce ranting about "doing the maths" and posting bull**** plots from
some computer simulation to try and disprove anything you say... rather
than actually using the software to figure out why these things are
happening.

What we found was that the Chord Odyssey cable made my speakers sound
sweeter for want of a better expression. The did tend to shout a
little on some choral works for example. Odyssey definitely seemed to
reduce this and make it more relaxed to listen to. As an aside they
weigh an absolute ton, the weight never fails to surprise me.

Careful, you'll have the thought police down on you like a ton of bricks
(or should that be a ton of Odyssey cables?)...

For what it's worth, I believe you. I use Chord Rumour 4 on the front
L/R and centre speakers, and it does sound fantastic. I tend to like
quite laid back music, and there's an active sub for the really low bass
anyway, so I don't have the lack of slam in the bass that you described.
But I can see how tri-wiring using a heftier cable for the LF would
solve your problem.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:09:31 +0100, Glenn Richards
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

Glenn, you have never been one to let anything as mundane as a fact
get in the way of your beliefs. Nice line in sanctimonious piety, by
the way.

More projecting I see...

But since you're bringing facts into this, how about this:

Fact - many people (myself included) can and do hear differences in
cable sound.


You haven't established this as fact - you have simply asserted it.
Not enough, I'm afraid. Establishing something as fact requires proof.

Fact - other people can't. That doesn't mean those differences aren't
real. It just means that some people can't hear them.


Or they might be lying to you, you know - winding you up by saying
they couldn't hear a difference when they could really. Everybody in
the world might be part of a conspiracy against you.

A case in point being my ex-girlfriend. She honestly could not tell the
difference between a £99 midi system and 5 grand's worth of separates.
Other than "your system goes louder".

Yes, that's correct, the only difference she could hear between her £99
midi system and my Arcam setup was that mine "goes louder".

Now on the rare occasions I heard her low-fi all I could hear was
speaker cabinet resonance, harmonic distortion and a complete lack of
dynamics. But she couldn't hear the difference.


She obviously didn' invite you round that much then - did you insult
her by dissing her hi fi?

Those differences were there all right. She just couldn't hear them.

And until people like you accept that, these pointless slanging matches
will continue. Let me give you a quick lesson:

Correct: "I've never heard a difference between speaker cables."

Incorrect: "Speaker cables make no difference to the sound."


Right both times. Speaker cables can and do make a difference to
sound. You've been told this over and over again.

The important thing to remember is that not observing an effect does not
in this case disprove, but observing the effect proves. The only time a
lack of observing an effect will disprove is if the results are 100%
consistent - by which I mean independent and repeatable. Which clearly
they aren't, as so many people can hear these differences.

Demonstrating the observation proves - asserting it does not. And you
have your experimental stuff all screwed up as usual. If you want to
prove an effect, you need to demonstrate that it is repeatably
observable.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:

Now on the rare occasions I heard her low-fi all I could hear was
speaker cabinet resonance, harmonic distortion and a complete lack
of dynamics. But she couldn't hear the difference.
She obviously didn' invite you round that much then - did you insult
her by dissing her hi fi?

She didn't have a hi-fi. Or even a mid-fi. Low-fi was about the only way
to describe it.

Needless to say she didn't play it that much. I think it got turned on
about 3-4 times while I was round.

The interesting thing is that although she said she couldn't hear any
difference between her low-fi and my setup, she said that for some
reason she enjoyed hearing music more at my place.

So clearly she was *hearing* the differences, just not *perceiving* them.

Right both times. Speaker cables can and do make a difference to
sound. You've been told this over and over again.

You said they didn't. Now you're admitting that they do.

So if you're now agreeing that speaker cables can and do make a
difference, does it not follow that bi-wiring will sound different to
single-wiring?

Ignoring the maths for a moment and concentrating entirely on the sound,
if as you're suggesting bi-wiring produces a less accurate sound, but
that sound is actually more pleasant, surely it then makes sense to bi-wire?

It's the same principle as solid state vs valves. Solid state, when it
distorts, causes distortion on the even harmonics. Valve kit distorts on
the odd harmonics. And distortion on odd harmonics can actually sound
quite good (just ask any rock guitarist).

The bottom line with hi-fi is really quite simple - does it sound good?
If bi-wiring sounds better than single-wiring then bi-wire. If the
system sounds better with the bridging straps left on (so single-wired
but effectively with thicker cable) then leave the bridging straps on.
If your speakers sound better toed in 20 degrees (even though the
manufacturer recommends a toe-in of 5 degrees) then toe them in 20 degrees.

With studio monitoring equipment the goal is to get the most accurate
sonic representation of what's "on the wire". With PA the goal is to
fill a space with sound. And with hi-fi the goal is to get the best and
most desirable sound to actually listen to the music. Which means that
for hi-fi the "rules" can occasionally be broken - and as described
above if it sounds better by doing things differently then do things
differently.

A few years ago I had an amplifier (Ferrograph F307) that actually
sounded better if you ran a 3-core cable from the amp to the speakers,
splitting it halfway between the two speakers into two twin core cables,
with a common return back to the amplifier. (This arrangement obviously
won't work with a bridged amp!) It should have sounded wrong, but on
this particular amp and the particular speakers I was using at the time
it actually sounded better to do things that way.

And at about the same time, I took a smaller pair of speakers, connected
them in series then connected the free ends across the positive
terminals of the speaker outputs, thereby feeding the smaller speakers
with the L-R difference signal. Placing these speakers some way behind
the listening position gave quite an effective surround sound effect.
Purists would have had a heart attack, but it worked, and was a lot of fun.

Horses for courses, I guess.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

"Glenn Richards" wrote in
message
Ok, for those people that still don't "get it", here's an
experiment that will demonstrate visually what's going on:

Take a 12V DC power supply (one of those bench PSUs
capable of supplying several amps will suffice) and a 12V
1W bulb (any type will do, it's easier to perform the
experiment using a MES bulb and batten holder with screw
terminals though).

Connect the bulb to the power supply using 5 metres of
13-strand zip wire and power up. Observe the brightness
of the bulb.

Now take a second bulb and holder, and attach a few
inches of the same wire to the second holder. Connect the
second bulb in parallel with the first so that it is
"chained" from the first bulb, ie you've got 5m of cable
from PSU to first bulb, then a few inches from the first
bulb to the second bulb. Make this connection with the
power turned on.

As you connect the second bulb, you'll see the first
bulb's brightness decrease. This is caused by a voltage
drop in the cable. Disconnect the second bulb and the
brightness of the first will increase again.

Unfortunately this experiement is irrelevant to speakers, because in a
speaker there is a crossover which is frequency-selective.

"Glenn Richards" wrote in
message
Don Pearce wrote:

Good grief - there really is no end to it.
OK, I've done all I can - anybody else feel like trying?

Come up with a computer model that matches the observed
effects and I might start taking you seriously.

That's just the problem - without proper listening tests which you refuse to
perform Glenn, there are no reliable observed effects.

"Glenn Richards" wrote in
message
. uk
Serge Auckland wrote:

No it isn't! Your experiment is being done with dc.
Repeat the experiment with 50Hz to one bulb and 10kHz to
the second bulb, both bulbs being fed through a single
amplifier and fed through a simple capacitor or inductor
"crossover". You will now see that the bulbs don't
change their brightness.

Makes no difference, AC or DC. Series resistance is still
the same, regardless of line frequency. That experiment
was to illustrate a concept, not specifics. The principle
is exactly the same.

That's where you are over-simplifying, Glenn.