So **not** my own experience...??? I just don't understand this??


I will spare you the rant on moving air, but consider a 30hz organ note
at considerable volume. Then consider the piccolo pipes above that, and
all-else that goes on. The last 5 minutes of the Organ Symphony move a
great deal of air. Physics would suggest that a fly-power amp pushing
perhaps 20 square inches of diaphram (even long-throw) at-best is not
going to be able to manage both ends of that spectrum (and the middle
of course) in anything remotely approaching mid-orchestra seating
concert-hall volume.... Outside in the lobby, perhaps.

Trumpets.... you *might* get the central part, but not hardly the
attack and decay, again and most especially if other instruments are
playing along.

Kettledrums... not at anything approaching volume as noted above, and
as they are 'tuned' drums, other than a very precise system will lose
most of them. They are not 'snare drums' by any means.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

wrote in message
ups.com...
So **not** my own experience...??? I just don't understand this??


I will spare you the rant on moving air, but consider a 30hz organ note
at considerable volume. Then consider the piccolo pipes above that, and
all-else that goes on. The last 5 minutes of the Organ Symphony move a
great deal of air. Physics would suggest that a fly-power amp pushing
perhaps 20 square inches of diaphram (even long-throw) at-best is not
going to be able to manage both ends of that spectrum (and the middle
of course) in anything remotely approaching mid-orchestra seating
concert-hall volume.... Outside in the lobby, perhaps.

Trumpets.... you *might* get the central part, but not hardly the
attack and decay, again and most especially if other instruments are
playing along.

Kettledrums... not at anything approaching volume as noted above, and
as they are 'tuned' drums, other than a very precise system will lose
most of them. They are not 'snare drums' by any means.



OK, we're in business. A quick scrute through the records (which are in no
particular order, other than I am already bunching the Mahler) has produced
4 different versions so far:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/saintsaens.JPG

And I've fired up the big stuff to get a head of steam:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/bigstuff.JPG

....all 4 watts of it!! :-)

So there'll some fun and games in a little while!

What I try to do is record it *open mic* and post a bit on my Show N Tell
page. All very hideous (it's only a lapel mic and it's buggered up - mono
only, I think) and it will sound like a public toilet but there may be
enough information for someone to check the frequencies. It'll be on the
Jerichos - the big yalla boys!!

What bit do you particularly want to hear? (Assuming any success with the
mic....)

No time scale, no telling when - later with a bit of luck!

- the big yalla boys!!

What bit do you particularly want to hear? (Assuming any success with the
mic....)

No time scale, no telling when - later with a bit of luck!

No rush, of course. Pleasure should not be hurried. But I would start
with the Chicago Orchestra (assuming it was recorded in the US with a
concert-hall organ). With all due respect to European organs, they do
tend to be wimpy and 'short' on the bombard pipe end of things. And
Karajan, like Ormandy, our home-grown example, is OK at directing
pregnant elephants, but not so good at the fine-pitch stuff.

OK... I got my pick, you get yours next.

No clipping permitted.

Coincidentally, we have several of the world's best organs right here
in Philadephia.

http://www.dtrmusic.com/orgwana.html

http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,13...-43969,00.html

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/curren...304/news1.html

http://www.christchurchphila.org/organ.html

And so forth.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

wrote in message
ups.com...
- the big yalla boys!!

What bit do you particularly want to hear? (Assuming any success with the
mic....)

No time scale, no telling when - later with a bit of luck!

No rush, of course. Pleasure should not be hurried. But I would start
with the Chicago Orchestra (assuming it was recorded in the US with a
concert-hall organ). With all due respect to European organs, they do
tend to be wimpy and 'short' on the bombard pipe end of things. And
Karajan, like Ormandy, our home-grown example, is OK at directing
pregnant elephants, but not so good at the fine-pitch stuff.


:-)



OK... I got my pick, you get yours next.


I did 'em all - see below...



No clipping permitted.


No? :-)



Coincidentally, we have several of the world's best organs right here
in Philadephia.

http://www.dtrmusic.com/orgwana.html

http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,13...-43969,00.html

http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/curren...304/news1.html

http://www.christchurchphila.org/organ.html

And so forth.


Excellent. If I had to choose only one instrument to take to a desert island
(with a suitably qualified pilot) it would be the biggest organ they could
get on the ship. I heard organ music damn near every day when I was at
school and I guess it just 'grew on me' - no finer sound when done well!

OK, here we go. These are the last few minutes of each disc in the photo.
The sound recording level was set for the first (Hague) and not touched
thereafter. No editing has been done other than to trim approximately the
same size, fore and aft (hopefully). The kit used is a broken lapel mic the
size of a cigarette butt and the amp is my homebrew 4 watt (on a good day)
2A3 SET, also shown in the earlier photo. Preamplification was by means of
the 'pre side' of my Denon PMA 655R SS amp (gives me remote control over the
volume and a lot of other stuff), the speakers are my own homebrew Jerichos
with relatively new Visaton B200 single, fullrange drivers.

Please remember it is OPEN MIC stuff and I would recommend moving some way
back from the computer to listen to them. (Alaska would be good.... :-)

I dare not remove the considerable DC Offset for fear of messing up the
waveforms, but take a look in a sound editor and you will see the
considerable differences.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Berlin.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Chicago.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Hague.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/London.mp3


After that, have a listen at this whole track - 'Serena' from Nada's 'Penta
Rei' album.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...anta%20Rei.mp3

Taken from a CD it is the setup as above but with the volume jacked up about
20% to compensate for the weedy CD output. Anyway, with a bit of luck, it
should give an indication of the frequency range of the speakers as well as
some female vocals to act as a 'reference point' - it's not the best track
on the album. The hiss is in the recordings (one of the prices you pay for
clarity) and it goes away briefly between tracks, other hiss gets in between
the mic and the computer somewhere as does a 'whumpa whumpa whumpa' sound!

Enjoy (if at all possible - it's not what I hear *live* believe me!) and let
me know which version of the Saint-Saens you think is best (or 'least
worst'?) - I know which version I don't like!!

(Tell me - who else here works harder to put up interesting posts...?? ;-)

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Berlin.mp3

Thin & cloudy... also clunky. Like tin cans being crumpled inside a
pillow??

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Chicago.mp3

Of the four, the most listenable. Barely. Some articulation and the
instruments can be picked out. Barely.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Hague.mp3

Just like homogenized milk. Entirely unremarkable and indifferent.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/London.mp3

Next most listenable. If only because the other two were so rough.

All of them sounded like they were being played through an old
Edison-Cylinder horn, with little or less at the top or the bottom.
Should I burn these to a CD and see how they sound on the various other
systems?

After that, have a listen at this whole track - 'Serena' from Nada's 'Penta
Rei' album.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...anta%20Rei.mp3

This last is about what I would expect an SET-based system to thrive
upon. Limited instrumentation, not a great deal of dynamic range, low
voice. But if the system is capable of sufficient articulation, it
could be quite nice.... very nice for a fact especially relative to the
enfeebled attempt at the full-orchestra piece.

Somewhere I have a pair of Revox microphones. I will attempt to dig
them out and do the same... but there is LOTS that I need to do first
before I get to that. Days worth anyway. The problem with having a
life, working and other hobbies.

Thank you!

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

wrote in message
oups.com...


http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Berlin.mp3

Thin & cloudy... also clunky. Like tin cans being crumpled inside a
pillow??

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Chicago.mp3

Of the four, the most listenable. Barely. Some articulation and the
instruments can be picked out. Barely.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Hague.mp3

Just like homogenized milk. Entirely unremarkable and indifferent.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/London.mp3

Next most listenable. If only because the other two were so rough.

All of them sounded like they were being played through an old
Edison-Cylinder horn, with little or less at the top or the bottom.
Should I burn these to a CD and see how they sound on the various other
systems?


I wouldn't bother - the limitations of the recordings are hardly going to
give you anything to work with, unless your computer sound system isn't up
to much...??


After that, have a listen at this whole track - 'Serena' from Nada's
'Penta
Rei' album.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...anta%20Rei.mp3

This last is about what I would expect an SET-based system to thrive
upon. Limited instrumentation, not a great deal of dynamic range, low
voice. But if the system is capable of sufficient articulation, it
could be quite nice.... very nice for a fact especially relative to the
enfeebled attempt at the full-orchestra piece.


This 'dynamic range' thing seems to crop up a fair bit with sandampers -
trust me, the Firewood Horns have more than enough 'highs and lows' to
provide a full and satisfying picture of the sound in the proper listening
environment. Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't know what 'bass'
sounds like - I have a pair of Ruark Paladins here with 215mm bass drivers
and the port tuned to 38 Hz.

No-one expects *tectonic bass* from Horns, what they seek is the clarity to
hear notes and textures in the frequency extremes and depth with good
imaging and instrument spacing...



Somewhere I have a pair of Revox microphones. I will attempt to dig
them out and do the same... but there is LOTS that I need to do first
before I get to that. Days worth anyway. The problem with having a
life, working and other hobbies.


Again, I shouldn't bother - what's it going to tell us? A pair of decent (?)
mics can beat a busted *lapel mic* and presumably you will not be recording
from an LP on a SET/Horn setup?


Thank you!


You're welcome, it was fun and this sort of thing is always useful but it
was pretty much a futile gesture from the start - open mic recordings can
only give you an *idea*, some people are able to 'hear through' to the
sound, some aren't....

Keith G wrote:

Don't make the mistake of thinking I don't know what 'bass'
sounds like - I have a pair of Ruark Paladins here with 215mm bass
drivers
and the port tuned to 38 Hz.


With all due respect and offered without baggage or other than my
personal opinion, an 8" woofer is not good for a whole lot, and a
ported system for even less. Inducing enough vibration to enough air
for a visceral response requires a lot of area co-mingled with a great
deal of power. A 12" woofer has 2.25 x the surface area of an 8"
woofer; 12" driver_S_ being about the minimum start for a system
capable of a smooth bass response.

If one's chest drums sitting in the 25th row of a concert hall, then
the system at home should be capable of putting that much energy into a
MUCH smaller room, of course. But the capacity must be there.

Power is very, very cheap relative to good speakers. And good speakers
will go nowhere without it. So, if I were to advise anyone starting out
in this, I would have them start with the speakers, spend the real $$
there and then acquire the wherewithall to drive them.

Thanks again... you did not mention which of those four you liked
best??

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
OK, here we go. These are the last few minutes of each disc in the
photo. The sound recording level was set for the first (Hague) and not
touched thereafter. No editing has been done other than to trim
approximately the same size, fore and aft (hopefully). The kit used is
a broken lapel mic the size of a cigarette butt and the amp is my
homebrew 4 watt (on a good day) 2A3 SET, also shown in the earlier
photo.

Real lab standard test gear, then.

Hint. Very few microphones have a flat frequency response - nor are they
designed to have. Especially lapel types. Decent lapel mics have a severe
presence peak and bass roll off to help compensate for the fact that
they're in totally the wrong place for natural speech.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Keith G wrote:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Berlin.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Chicago.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Hague.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/London.mp3


After that, have a listen at this whole track - 'Serena' from Nada's 'Penta
Rei' album.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...anta%20Rei.mp3

...........

(Tell me - who else here works harder to put up interesting posts...?? ;-)

Thanks for working so hard to make my thread interesting, Keith.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
ups.com...

Keith G wrote:



After that, have a listen at this whole track - 'Serena' from Nada's
'Penta
Rei' album.

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...anta%20Rei.mp3

..........

(Tell me - who else here works harder to put up interesting posts...??
;-)

Thanks for working so hard to make my thread interesting, Keith.



Your threads are always interesting, Andre - even the well-writte,
provocative OT stuff is a welcome relief in this barren, post-apocalyptic
wasteland....

(If you haven't already guessed, the main purpose of trax like those is to
take a little poke at one or two of the little 'rodents' who are still
scurrying about in here!! - It never fails to draw *one of them* blinking
into the light!! ;-)