"Keith G" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it
out like we have all just got off the boat, but he
don't got the balls to back up the crap he posts with
any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just
got off the boat. Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell
the
difference between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly
tell the LP copy from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it
shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win
the Vinyl Wars? (See below...)

The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why are you still
fighting it, Keith?

Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two
decades

No, its in decline again. People can get CD players that simulate scratching
well enough, now.

every turntable manufacturer in the world has
brought out new models and even people like MF and EAR
have got into it

Each selling a few turntables every month compared to the millions of
digital A/V players sold every month?

. Competition for high quality turntables
and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious,
cartridge/deck manufacturers are bringing out new models
and the DJ scene has never been healthier!

Yes, the DJ scene is far healthier since the vinyl umbilical cord was cut.

You lost. Get over it....

???????????????

No way!

That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws
means you're really not worth trying to educate over
other matters like horn colouration, break up of cones
with full range drivers, etc etc.

Educate?

True, anybody who is a die-hard vinyl bigot 20 years after the fact is
arguably impossible to educate. Old dogs and new tricks, etc.

You really think I need/could get an education from you?

Well, there's need and there's the possibility of a very rusty screw ever
getting turned without breaking.

(You really think you're placed to educate me?)

Having two or more synapses to rub together and make a logical though is
qualification enough.

Laughable!


No, pathetic.

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.

They what....??

If you can't answer it, avoid it - that's your preference, isn't it Keith?

That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

If you have to ask, you will probably not be able to understand the answer.

In article , Keith G
wrote:



Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two decades - every
turntable manufacturer in the world has brought out new models and even
people like MF and EAR have got into it. Competition for high quality
turntables and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious, cartridge/deck
manufacturers are bringing out new models and the DJ scene has never
been healthier!

You lost. Get over it....

Well, I continue, each year, to ask my undergrad classes about the audio
systems they have, etc. During the last few years *none* of them said they
have any LPs/Vinyl or any means of replaying them. The general reaction is
puzzlement why anyone would. Occasionally one says something like, "You
mean like DJs/Grandad use?", though.

There are still, of course, many people like myself who have a 'legacy'
collection of LPs, so have means of playing them. When I play one I tend to
enjoy it, but alas I also still often find the pops and crackles or the wow
of off-center pressings noticable. I am also increasingly aware of the
potential difficulty of obtaining replacement stylii for decades-old
cartridges.

There are also, of course, some people with a special interest, and the
audio magazines cater to many of these. However my impression is that they
are only a tiny fraction of the general population of the UK. Indeed, when
I discuss 'hifi' with most people they seem utterly baffled by the
behaviour of 'audio enthusiasts'. Increasingly, I find I meet people who
have never seen an LP, let alone listened to one.

Hence I find the implication that Vinyl has 'won' rather odd...

I suspect that there are still makers of horse whips and riding tackle,
supplying a niche market. Similarly, my impression is that Vinyl has
*survived* as a tiny niche market, within another niche market. This is
fine for those who like to ride a horse or play an LP, but given the status
and scope of these activities in earlier decades, I would not call it a
'win'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we have
all just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up the
crap he posts with any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just got off the boat.

Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell the difference
between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly tell the LP copy
from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.

Dave. 99.99% of people (and I include your good self in
this figu-) have no possibility of "copying" (your term)
a CD to LP, so interesting as your hypothesis may be,
you have no means of proving it. So near, but so far:-)

No one is denying the potential superiority of CD over vinyl
as a reproducing medium, but so many people prefer "the
musical experience" from vinyl, and I can illustrate why this
should be.

I am sure you will recall there was a rare sealed Decca
pressing of a Beatles LP on the Parlophone label sold for
close on GBP 700 just a while back. The proud new
owner turned out to be a well known Swedish musician/author.
He took the pressing to a CD mastering company which I
frequent to have it transcribed to CD. I was delighted to be
involved..

The pressing, apart from a few ticks and pops on the inner bands,
was pristine. A reference CD was made for his private use only.

Just as you surmised, the two were indistinguishable from each other.
Then, some bright spark got the idea of comparing our "reference
CD" with the commercially released version

What a surprise! The CD had a dynamic range some 6dB
less than the LP. There was clear evidence of Smiley at work
with and excess of both LF and HF, unpleasant compression
and detectable clipping.

This is perhaps the reason why a mint sealed pressing sells for
close to GBP700 while the CD can be had from any second
hand shop for Euro 2.


The potential of the CD is vastly superior to the vinyl pressing,
(though only marginally better than the 14 inch lacquer from
which the metalwork for vinyl pressing is made) and yet in so
many cases the latter is preferred by discerning people who
can hear the difference. If you are not one of these, then
buy the CD. You can save yourself a lot of money:-)


That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws means you're
really not worth trying to educate over other matters like horn
colouration, break up of cones with full range drivers, etc etc.

A bit presumptuous, Dave:-) Some might wonder whether a TV
sound recordist should be trying to "educate" someone
like Keith on those subjects. Let Lowther, JBL and Altec do
the educating if required They have highly qualified people in R+D who
really know the subject. They also organise excellent demos, lectures
and workshops.

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so much
of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of just how
much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith is one of the few on this group for whom audio is a "hands on"
hobby - in contrast to those who prefer to sit in their armchairs
and patronise. The best way to learn about speakers, amps etc is to
build some, listen, compare, draw your conclusions and take the next
step.

That, as I see it, is exactly what Keith is doing. He seems to be
enjoying, and learning from, the experience.It requires a
high level of motivation, and interest, which many people, even the
most capable, seem to lack.

I know from e-mail outside this group that many who read but do not
subscribe, are very interested in his down to earth approach, and
his findings. Without his threads, this NG would be a poorer place.


Regards to all

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Dave. 99.99% of people (and I include your good self in
this figu-) have no possibility of "copying" (your term)
a CD to LP, so interesting as your hypothesis may be,
you have no means of proving it. So near, but so far:-)

You must have a very powerful crystal ball if you know what I have and
haven't done.

No one is denying the potential superiority of CD over vinyl
as a reproducing medium, but so many people prefer "the
musical experience" from vinyl, and I can illustrate why this
should be.

I can guess what's coming...

I am sure you will recall there was a rare sealed Decca
pressing of a Beatles LP on the Parlophone label sold for
close on GBP 700 just a while back. The proud new
owner turned out to be a well known Swedish musician/author.
He took the pressing to a CD mastering company which I
frequent to have it transcribed to CD. I was delighted to be
involved..

The pressing, apart from a few ticks and pops on the inner bands,
was pristine. A reference CD was made for his private use only.

Just as you surmised, the two were indistinguishable from each other.
Then, some bright spark got the idea of comparing our "reference
CD" with the commercially released version

What a surprise! The CD had a dynamic range some 6dB
less than the LP. There was clear evidence of Smiley at work
with and excess of both LF and HF, unpleasant compression
and detectable clipping.

This is perhaps the reason why a mint sealed pressing sells for
close to GBP700 while the CD can be had from any second
hand shop for Euro 2.

Which proves nothing - except that people in the record industry are
capable of ruining a 'good thing'. Now remind me of what industry you work
in...;-)


The potential of the CD is vastly superior to the vinyl pressing,
(though only marginally better than the 14 inch lacquer from
which the metalwork for vinyl pressing is made) and yet in so
many cases the latter is preferred by discerning people who
can hear the difference. If you are not one of these, then
buy the CD. You can save yourself a lot of money:-)

So you're saying all vinyl is perfect and never ruined by bad mastering,
because that's what you're on about - not CD verses vinyl? If so, you
weren't around much when vinyl was common - or had never heard a master
tape. Which seems strange given your claims.


That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws means you're
really not worth trying to educate over other matters like horn
colouration, break up of cones with full range drivers, etc etc.

A bit presumptuous, Dave:-) Some might wonder whether a TV
sound recordist should be trying to "educate" someone
like Keith on those subjects.

Err, and you presume to know more? How very pretentious of you. Broadcast
sound involves pretty well all the disciplines. Far more than simple music
recording.

Let Lowther, JBL and Altec do the educating if required They have
highly qualified people in R+D who really know the subject. They also
organise excellent demos, lectures and workshops.

But they don't read this newsgroup.

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so
much of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of
just how much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read
like the very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most
genuine sound enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith is one of the few on this group for whom audio is a "hands on"
hobby - in contrast to those who prefer to sit in their armchairs
and patronise.

Is this what you do?

The best way to learn about speakers, amps etc is to build some, listen,
compare, draw your conclusions and take the next step.

Then it would seem he has a long journey ahead. And you too if you, it
would seem.

That, as I see it, is exactly what Keith is doing. He seems to be
enjoying, and learning from, the experience.It requires a
high level of motivation, and interest, which many people, even the
most capable, seem to lack.

Are you referring to me? FWIW I have lots of home built equipment.

I know from e-mail outside this group that many who read but do not
subscribe, are very interested in his down to earth approach, and
his findings.

These shadowy types again. If they want to read but not contribute let
them buy a mag. It's a very selfish attitude.

Without his threads, this NG would be a poorer place.

Might be. But then you too are but an occasional visitor. And of course
entitled to your opinion. If only you didn't try to be so damn patronising.

--
*Most people have more than the average number of legs*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Keith G wrote:

By contrast, I was 'talking' to Elrond a few weeks back who owns and
recommends Tannoy 609s. By a stroke of luck there wuz a pair on eBay ending
in only a few hours, so I grabbed them for a (midweek) song. They are
*excellent* - I could live with them quite happily, were it not for the
horns....!!

I should elaborate on this point. I like the sound of the Tannoys but
the 8" driver is strangled by its 16litre box. A reflex box of 60l would
be better, or a transmission line. Having seen the pair on eBay about to
finish on a Friday afternoon when nobody would be bidding, I mentioned
them to Keith. I thought the first order crossover would sound similar
to a full-range driver, as he doesn't like complex crossovers. The dual
concentric unit would drop straight into one of Keith's cabinets and the
crossover is included in the terminal panel. What could be simpler?
The only trouble is that Keith thought they sounded too good to chop.
New cabs for mine will be a project for next winter.

--
Eiron.

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

By contrast, I was 'talking' to Elrond a few weeks back who owns and
recommends Tannoy 609s. By a stroke of luck there wuz a pair on eBay
ending in only a few hours, so I grabbed them for a (midweek) song. They
are *excellent* - I could live with them quite happily, were it not for
the horns....!!

I should elaborate on this point. I like the sound of the Tannoys but
the 8" driver is strangled by its 16litre box. A reflex box of 60l would
be better, or a transmission line. Having seen the pair on eBay about to
finish on a Friday afternoon when nobody would be bidding, I mentioned
them to Keith. I thought the first order crossover would sound similar
to a full-range driver, as he doesn't like complex crossovers. The dual
concentric unit would drop straight into one of Keith's cabinets and the
crossover is included in the terminal panel. What could be simpler?
The only trouble is that Keith thought they sounded too good to chop.
New cabs for mine will be a project for next winter.



Actually it's not so much the sound, it's the looks - I'd rip the drivers
out in a flash if they were only 'so so', but they're not, they're rather
smart!! Plus the fact they unexpectedly came complete with the stands -
altogether to nice to vandalise!

But....

For what I paid for them, they *do* represent a bargain pair of 8" drivers
and your comments have got me wondering....???