Too neat to waste...
 

This is part of my reply to a friend who has Klipsch Heresies already but
expressed a curiosity about my speakers. I thought it too *neat* to waste
and have posted it here mainly, I suppose, to aggravate the Pencil Dicks
here who are too scared to step outside the safety zone of legacy Brit
'evergreens' and are full of yap and *advice* - yet too fekkin' embarrassed
to tell you what speakers they've got themselves....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You of all people must know what it's like when you want other speakers!
Otherwise why would you have so many?!


OK, not as daft as you might think - I went through 20,000 SS amplifiers
without realising I was looking for valves, I did almost the same thing with
speakers. (Was doing in fact!) Now I've got triodes and horns (and vinyl)
and am very happy with the 'Holy Trinity'! What ****es me off is that all
the 'advice' I got, after I got into the 'hifi' hobby, tried to push me in
the opposite direction, so it took a lot more time and money to get where I
am!

The rapid progress through the horns was a 'speeded up' voyage of
discovery - with hindsight we'd all wait 'til the lift gets to the top floor
before we stepped off, wouldn't we? ;-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------


By contrast, I was 'talking' to Elrond a few weeks back who owns and
recommends Tannoy 609s. By a stroke of luck there wuz a pair on eBay ending
in only a few hours, so I grabbed them for a (midweek) song. They are
*excellent* - I could live with them quite happily, were it not for the
horns....!!

Then I googled for Klipsch Heresies (as you do) and found this (first
result):

"I believe they are up to the third addition at this time. These are small
by the original Klipsch standards, and of course is a sealed box/suspension
style speaker, hence this is where the name is derived. The early, original
Heresies came in two choices, 8 and 16 ohms. The sensativity is rated around
96 db/1m, and has a bit of a difficult impedence on the 8 ohm models(or so I
have heard). Most SET owners feel this is a nice speaker, as well do most
other smaller tube amp owners. The biggest complaint I have heard about this
and other Klipsch models is the bright, in your face presantation. YMMV as
they say!"


What is it with this 'in yer face' rubbish with anything that's a *lot* more
revealing than most multiway, crossovered IB/BR slurry pumps? Is it an
'indoctrination' thing? Do they have no 'volume controls'...??

Mystified, Tonbridge Wells

Too neat to waste...
 

On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:54:36 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

OK, not as daft as you might think - I went through 20,000 SS amplifiers
without realising I was looking for valves, I did almost the same thing with
speakers. (Was doing in fact!) Now I've got triodes and horns (and vinyl)
and am very happy with the 'Holy Trinity'! What ****es me off is that all
the 'advice' I got, after I got into the 'hifi' hobby, tried to push me in
the opposite direction, so it took a lot more time and money to get where I
am!

Ah Keith. Sorry you got pushed in the wrong direction, but you do need
to shoulder some of the blame for that if you were asking people for
advice about Hi Fi. People would naturally push you in the direction
of highest fidelity, but that wasn't what you wanted. You had a
particular sound in your head that needed matching, and you've found
it in SETs and horns.

That's all great, and I for one applaud it, but impressive sounds
aren't much to do with Hi Fi. I for one always run the other way when
I hear a system that sounds impressive, because I know that in the
long run I won't be able to live with it. I need my Hi Fi to be
self-effacing - all I want to hear is the music.

One man's meat...

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Too neat to waste...
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Jul 2006 11:54:36 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

OK, not as daft as you might think - I went through 20,000 SS amplifiers
without realising I was looking for valves, I did almost the same thing
with
speakers. (Was doing in fact!) Now I've got triodes and horns (and vinyl)
and am very happy with the 'Holy Trinity'! What ****es me off is that all
the 'advice' I got, after I got into the 'hifi' hobby, tried to push me in
the opposite direction, so it took a lot more time and money to get where
I
am!

Ah Keith. Sorry you got pushed in the wrong direction, but you do need
to shoulder some of the blame for that if you were asking people for
advice about Hi Fi.



OK, first off, you do not need to include yourself in the above - you and I
are poles apart 'hifiwise', but I have never considered any information from
you to be anything like the bigotted claptrap that I'm referring to above.
That reply was to a friend outside the context of any newsgroup - I don't
blame anybody for my 'voyage' through hifi kit in the recent years but I did
take note of what some of the so-called 'Old Hands' had to say. Asitappens,
many times I have posted a specific question I received no answer, so
there's certainly 'no blame'!!

(In any case, all my life I have followed strictly empirical methods and
have stated here in the past that if someone *tells* me the stove is hot, I
get burnt fingers!! ;-)

The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we have all
just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up the crap he
posts with any concrete evidence or specific information. One facet of an
empirical nature is to provide physical evidence (Show N Tell) when it is
easy enough to do - or 'blogging' as he likes to call it. I am giving in to
the 'text only' nature of this ng and won't be providing too much to
see/hear from now on, despite the fact that it is fun to do and is common
practice elsewhere - there are any number of forums hoaching with pix, links
and the occasional soundclip!

(I might add 'Because I say so' don't cut it with me and is the sort of
arrogance that gets people off my Christmas Card List PDQ...!!)


People would naturally push you in the direction
of highest fidelity, but that wasn't what you wanted. You had a
particular sound in your head that needed matching, and you've found
it in SETs and horns.


Yep, all I've wanted is to be able to hear *all* of the sound and not in the
one plane between the speakers.

The 'musicality' of the sound I get is beyond question, or I wouldn't have a
single item of the same kit. Also, factor in that (as I said recently)
although I only have to please myself, I am so devoid of the above-mentioned
arrogance that I readily elicit the opinions of others to confirm (or
otherwise) my own findings. Trust me that if I had had a string of people
(including what? no less than 7 subscribers/lurkers here?) through here all
telling me the kit sounds ****e I wouldn't have taken it on board?? I have
responded to criticisms and suggestions throughout - it's the *point* of
asking for opinions!


That's all great, and I for one applaud it, but impressive sounds
aren't much to do with Hi Fi. I for one always run the other way when
I hear a system that sounds impressive, because I know that in the
long run I won't be able to live with it. I need my Hi Fi to be
self-effacing - all I want to hear is the music.


Hmm, that one's done a bit to death in my book....

I've got two sons who want only the same thing - they have Technics/Sony/B&W
and NAD/Sony/Mission setups and have steadfastly refused any spare kit that
I would have *thought* might have been an upgrade as they are both very
happy with the sound they have. Take it from me, what they have is plenty OK
but it is innocuous and extremely *uninvolving* compared with my own stuff
which will, I'm certain, be far too scary for most. Their sound (and that of
one or two others I know) is what I call perfectly decent 'TV music'..!!

I find that so much detail and imaging is lost in 'normal hifi' it is not
*all* of the music - there's too much missing to satisfy me and the lack of
clarity with some kit combinations is too much like sucking a sweet with the
wrapper on for my taste!

Also, I would like to add, it's not necessarily a 'valves & vinyl' thing - I
suspect that if you spend *enough* money on their opposites you probably
could get summat approaching that which can be had for comparative peanuts
with a bit of valves, vinyl and horns DIY..!!

(It's probably no more than a question of 'horses for wallets'...??? :-)


(Jeez, it's a good day for similes !! :-)


One man's meat...


Sure....

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we have
all just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up the
crap he posts with any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just got off the boat.

Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell the difference
between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly tell the LP copy
from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.

That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws means you're
really not worth trying to educate over other matters like horn
colouration, break up of cones with full range drivers, etc etc.

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so much
of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of just how
much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so
much of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of
just how much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read
like the very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most
genuine sound enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining. What he's doing is
right in line with the spirit of the 'rec' part of the group's name.
Regarding your "flowery" remark, Keith is one of the most skilled users of
language in here. Maybe you just don't understand why he does it, or why
people come to this (or any other) group. Seems to me that you expect this
to be a place where the discourse is dry and factual, where only equipment
of a certain standard is worthy.

You don't have to read his stuff, and you don't have to whine about it,
either.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Wally wrote:
I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so
much of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of
just how much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read
like the very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most
genuine sound enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining. What he's
doing is right in line with the spirit of the 'rec' part of the group's
name. Regarding your "flowery" remark, Keith is one of the most skilled
users of language in here.

Fine. Perhaps you'd provide a glossary of what the terms actually mean.

Maybe you just don't understand why he does it, or why people come to
this (or any other) group. Seems to me that you expect this to be a
place where the discourse is dry and factual, where only equipment of a
certain standard is worthy.

Not so. Discussion on anything audio is ok. As is challenging the wilder
claims.

You don't have to read his stuff, and you don't have to whine about it,
either.

Pot, kettle.

--
*If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fine. Perhaps you'd provide a glossary of what the terms actually
mean.

Why?


Not so. Discussion on anything audio is ok. As is challenging the
wilder claims.

Is tinging said challenges with snide sarcasm an equitable way to go about
that?


Pot, kettle.

Spot the whine...

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining.

Not a whine.


What he's
doing is right in line with the spirit of the 'rec' part of the
group's name.

Not a whine.


Regarding your "flowery" remark, Keith is one of the
most skilled users of language in here.

Not a whine.


Maybe you just don't understand why he does it, or why people come to
this (or any other) group.

Not a whine.


Seems to me that you expect this to be a
place where the discourse is dry and factual, where only equipment
of a certain standard is worthy.

Not a whine.

And no tinge of snide sarcasm, either.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Too neat to waste...
 

Keith G wrote:

By contrast, I was 'talking' to Elrond a few weeks back who owns and
recommends Tannoy 609s. By a stroke of luck there wuz a pair on eBay ending
in only a few hours, so I grabbed them for a (midweek) song. They are
*excellent* - I could live with them quite happily, were it not for the
horns....!!

I should elaborate on this point. I like the sound of the Tannoys but
the 8" driver is strangled by its 16litre box. A reflex box of 60l would
be better, or a transmission line. Having seen the pair on eBay about to
finish on a Friday afternoon when nobody would be bidding, I mentioned
them to Keith. I thought the first order crossover would sound similar
to a full-range driver, as he doesn't like complex crossovers. The dual
concentric unit would drop straight into one of Keith's cabinets and the
crossover is included in the terminal panel. What could be simpler?
The only trouble is that Keith thought they sounded too good to chop.
New cabs for mine will be a project for next winter.

--
Eiron.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Fine. Perhaps you'd provide a glossary of what the terms actually
mean.

Why?


Not so. Discussion on anything audio is ok. As is challenging the
wilder claims.

Is tinging said challenges with snide sarcasm an equitable way to go about
that?


Pot, kettle.

Spot the whine...

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining.

Not a whine.


What he's
doing is right in line with the spirit of the 'rec' part of the
group's name.

Not a whine.


Regarding your "flowery" remark, Keith is one of the
most skilled users of language in here.

Not a whine.


Maybe you just don't understand why he does it, or why people come to
this (or any other) group.

Not a whine.


Seems to me that you expect this to be a
place where the discourse is dry and factual, where only equipment
of a certain standard is worthy.

Not a whine.

And no tinge of snide sarcasm, either.



Wally, who said you could play with my poodle? You go get yer own!!

;-)

Too neat to waste...
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

By contrast, I was 'talking' to Elrond a few weeks back who owns and
recommends Tannoy 609s. By a stroke of luck there wuz a pair on eBay
ending in only a few hours, so I grabbed them for a (midweek) song. They
are *excellent* - I could live with them quite happily, were it not for
the horns....!!

I should elaborate on this point. I like the sound of the Tannoys but
the 8" driver is strangled by its 16litre box. A reflex box of 60l would
be better, or a transmission line. Having seen the pair on eBay about to
finish on a Friday afternoon when nobody would be bidding, I mentioned
them to Keith. I thought the first order crossover would sound similar
to a full-range driver, as he doesn't like complex crossovers. The dual
concentric unit would drop straight into one of Keith's cabinets and the
crossover is included in the terminal panel. What could be simpler?
The only trouble is that Keith thought they sounded too good to chop.
New cabs for mine will be a project for next winter.



Actually it's not so much the sound, it's the looks - I'd rip the drivers
out in a flash if they were only 'so so', but they're not, they're rather
smart!! Plus the fact they unexpectedly came complete with the stands -
altogether to nice to vandalise!

But....

For what I paid for them, they *do* represent a bargain pair of 8" drivers
and your comments have got me wondering....???

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we have
all just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up the
crap he posts with any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just got off the boat.

Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell the difference
between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly tell the LP copy
from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win the Vinyl Wars? (See
below...)

Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two decades - every
turntable manufacturer in the world has brought out new models and even
people like MF and EAR have got into it. Competition for high quality
turntables and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious, cartridge/deck
manufacturers are bringing out new models and the DJ scene has never been
healthier!

You lost. Get over it....


That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws means you're
really not worth trying to educate over other matters like horn
colouration, break up of cones with full range drivers, etc etc.


Educate?

You really think I need/could get an education from you? (You really think
you're placed to educate me?)

Laughable!



I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so much
of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of just how
much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.


They what....??


That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.


WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??



--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.


Once again, the silly tagline is the only true bit of Banzai Plowie's post!
(See below...)



Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Except nobody ever does....


[Banzai Plowie]

Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better and despite all
his efforts in the past he hasn't been able to stop a single person enjoying
it - he's like one of those WW2 Banzai Japs who spent 30 years defending a
deserted island in the Pacific against *nobody* for 30 years, until they
were lured out of their foxholes by a pack of Luckies and the promise of a
Jane Russell movie!!

YHFL...

:-)

Too neat to waste...
 

Keith G wrote:


Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better....

Only to some Keith, not to everyone, and certainly not to me.

S.

Too neat to waste...
 

Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better....

Only to some Keith, not to everyone, and certainly not to me.

S.

Well, yeah. I have a pretty ok turntable: PT TOO with RB300 and
Sumiko BPS Evo III cartridge. It is good. But largely, I kinda get off
on knowing it's good - far better than most non-Hi-fi people's
crappy record players - and that does add to the experience when I
listen to it. But I know deep down that technically, the fidelity isn't
as good as that from the 400 quid CD player (Marantz CD63 MkII SE).
Or even from a 60 quid CD (if I had one), let's not kid ourselves.

Recently, I thought I'd killed the Sumiko cartridge during a rather
****ed listening session when I had this girl friend around and we had
a great day. I whipped her. It was great. She loved it! So I kinda
thought: "Well, I can't afford to replace it right now and it's not
good, but it was such a nice day that I can be philosophical about
it.". 2 weeks later I thought "**** it, one channel on the cartridge
is dead, but I REALLY wanna hear this Stevie track (see below) that
I'll put up with only hearing it out of one side.". So I put it on, and
BOTH CHANNELS WORKED!!! Wow! Cash back! Turns out that the Pro-Ject
Tube Box seems to have a dodgy channel and if it does that (as it
did again later), if I turn it off, and then turn it on again, the
missing channel comes back. Phew!

I'm just ****ed off that I can't get the following 2 tracks on high
quality MP3 or CD, cos I only have them on the flip side of 12 inch
singles and I love them so much and have played them so much that the
vinyl is now ****ed, cos I've had them both since I was 17, half my
life ago now:

Stevie Nicks - "Has Anyone Ever Written Anything For You" (live)
Tanita Tikaram - "Friends"

Dammit. There comes a time when the scratches and groove damage
get too much even for me. I do still listen to them, but they don't
sound so good any more.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Too neat to waste...
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better....

Only to some Keith, not to everyone, and certainly not to me.

S.




****, that's torn it! - It'll be Pearl Harbour all over again!!

:-)

Too neat to waste...
 

"Fleetie" wrote in message
...

Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better....

Only to some Keith, not to everyone, and certainly not to me.

S.

Well, yeah. I have a pretty ok turntable: PT TOO with RB300 and
Sumiko BPS Evo III cartridge. It is good. But largely, I kinda get off
on knowing it's good - far better than most non-Hi-fi people's
crappy record players - and that does add to the experience when I
listen to it. But I know deep down that technically, the fidelity isn't
as good as that from the 400 quid CD player (Marantz CD63 MkII SE).
Or even from a 60 quid CD (if I had one), let's not kid ourselves.


Hmm, my 'daily' record deck cost just over 30 quid....

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we
have all just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up
the crap he posts with any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just got off the
boat.

Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell the difference
between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly tell the LP copy
from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win the Vinyl Wars?
(See below...)

Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You are
looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - and of course each
change you make sounds different and suits you for a day or so. You are
searching for some sort of holy grail that simply doesn't exist.

Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two decades - every
turntable manufacturer in the world has brought out new models and even
people like MF and EAR have got into it. Competition for high quality
turntables and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious, cartridge/deck
manufacturers are bringing out new models and the DJ scene has never
been healthier!

You lost. Get over it....

You really didn't understand the bit about vinyl *adding* to the sound,
did you? Or how it also applies to horn enclosures and 'wide range' single
drivers? Poorly designed valve amps too?
These things were known many many years ago - but you appear to be trying
to re-invent the wheel.


That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws means you're
really not worth trying to educate over other matters like horn
colouration, break up of cones with full range drivers, etc etc.


Educate?

You really think I need/could get an education from you? (You really
think you're placed to educate me?)

Laughable!

No - I consider you beyond education. But five minutes reading some basic
books on audio design would increase your knowledge multifold.



I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that you make so
much of your own bits and bobs, but when your flowery descriptions of
just how much improved the latest one is over last weeks delight read
like the very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.


They what....??


That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.


WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

Not you, obviously. You appear to be an equipment enthusiast.



--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.


Once again, the silly tagline is the only true bit of Banzai Plowie's
post! (See below...)

Except nobody ever does....

When last did you work? ;-)


[Banzai Plowie]

Plowie can't get used to the idea that vinyl *sounds* better and despite
all his efforts in the past he hasn't been able to stop a single person
enjoying it - he's like one of those WW2 Banzai Japs who spent 30 years
defending a deserted island in the Pacific against *nobody* for 30
years, until they were lured out of their foxholes by a pack of Luckies
and the promise of a Jane Russell movie!!

What a prat. Just what percentage of the music - or reproduced sounds -
loving public listen to vinyl? Somewhere like a fraction of 1% I'd guess.
And for good reason.

--
*The beatings will continue until morale improves *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Fleetie wrote:
Well, yeah. I have a pretty ok turntable: PT TOO with RB300 and
Sumiko BPS Evo III cartridge. It is good. But largely, I kinda get off
on knowing it's good - far better than most non-Hi-fi people's
crappy record players - and that does add to the experience when I
listen to it. But I know deep down that technically, the fidelity isn't
as good as that from the 400 quid CD player (Marantz CD63 MkII SE).
Or even from a 60 quid CD (if I had one), let's not kid ourselves.

Just to emphasise I'm not knocking vinyl for the sake of it - I enjoyed it
for many years but was well aware of its fundamental flaws then as now.
And still enjoy the odd LP which I haven't got on CD.

Of course there are plenty of badly mastered CDs around - as there were
badly mastered LPs. But where the highest standards are employed, CD wins
every time.

--
*Indian Driver - Smoke signals only*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it out like we
have all just got off the boat, but he don't got the balls to back up
the crap he posts with any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just got off the
boat.

Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell the difference
between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly tell the LP copy
from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win the Vinyl Wars?
(See below...)

Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You are
looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - and of course each
change you make sounds different and suits you for a day or so. You are
searching for some sort of holy grail that simply doesn't exist.



Why does it bother you so much what I do?

Strange.....???


rest snipped


Sorry - I can't be arsed with it, you do your thing, I'll do mine....

Too neat to waste...
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.

and...

Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You
are looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - ...

You are proceeding from a false premise.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You
are looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - and of course
each change you make sounds different and suits you for a day or so.
You are searching for some sort of holy grail that simply doesn't
exist.

Why does it bother you so much what I do?

I assumed you posted here to generate discussion?

Strange.....???

rest snipped

Sorry - I can't be arsed with it, you do your thing, I'll do mine....

Obviously not then. As I said, more of a Blog.

--
*Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it shouldn't.

and...

Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You
are looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - ...

You are proceeding from a false premise.



Wally, that crackpot ain't worth the time nor energy - he does nothing
himself except yap and gets the ****s when anybody else does do summat and
has the *temerity* to shout about it here!

After I wiped his post off just now, I went through to listen to a few
minutes Late Night Junction. Due to my new speakers being back in the garage
for finishing off I had the Tannoy 609s on the SS/radio setup. I swapped
between them and the Jerichos a few times. The difference is *outstanding* -
with the Jerichos, the sound (tinkly bits, mostly) floated in the air in a
*disembodied* fashion. Switch back to the Tannoys and the sound fell back
into the speakers and the top end vanished. I would (and do) class the DC
Tannoys as very good little 'commercial speakers', but what tits like Plowie
don't know is that these 'firewood horns' image like no other and totally
disappear...!!

Swim was watching CSI Miami (?) and came through to tell me we were up for
doing a movie (we're halfway through The Fastest Indian) I said have a quick
listen to these and did the swap - no contest!! She said the second ones
(Jerichos) were 'better by miles'!

End of - it took just that long!

They (those who only yap) love to knock the 'wife said' bit, but what other
second opinion can you grab at no notice? Anyway, **** 'em...

I'm getting closer and closer to 'as good as it gets' I suspect (short of
spending 6 figures of money) - that has been my (self-imposed) challenge and
I do believe one or two here have been interested to hear about it.
(Interested enough to want to come and see for themselves!) If it gets up
Plowies arse, well I guess that's just a bonus!!

:-)

(Wot *do* they fakkin' know....???)

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Err, no. It was an example of how your whole thinking is flawed. You
are looking for an extremely coloured unnatural sound - and of course
each change you make sounds different and suits you for a day or so.
You are searching for some sort of holy grail that simply doesn't
exist.

Why does it bother you so much what I do?

I assumed you posted here to generate discussion?

Strange.....???

rest snipped

Sorry - I can't be arsed with it, you do your thing, I'll do mine....

Obviously not then. As I said, more of a Blog.



OK, Plowie - you're in luck, I got a few minutes. (Swim's watching another
sodding TV programme now, finishes in 10 minutes??)

Sure it's a blog - an Audio Blog, if I throw in a few extras that's my
prerogative and my style. (You don't get to dictate what people post here,
much as you would like to.)

Now, one question for you - would you rather I didn't post?

Simple yes or no answer - I'm not interested in what you consider ukra to be
(helpdesk, techno knobwaving arena or whatever...)??

Too neat to waste...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Wally" wrote in message


Hi Keith, I for one enjoy reading of your exploits, and give you credit for
the enthusiasm you demonstrate. As some would say, all that is relevant is
what "turns YOU on" (not literally) and gives you enjoyment.

I can see that you like to prove to yourself that the results are what
others say they are or are not. Keep enjoying yourself with your interest,
as I know you currently do, and all the best.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Another Wally" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Wally" wrote in message


Hi Keith, I for one enjoy reading of your exploits, and give you credit
for the enthusiasm you demonstrate. As some would say, all that is
relevant is what "turns YOU on" (not literally) and gives you enjoyment.

I can see that you like to prove to yourself that the results are what
others say they are or are not. Keep enjoying yourself with your interest,
as I know you currently do, and all the best.



Thanks Wally - I get plenty of direct emails from people who like the
'blogging' (keep's 'em amused) but do not post here due to being fed up with
being 'put right' all the time or see their posts turned into punch-ups!
(Although I'da thowt that's not near so bad as it was....??)

Anyway, even I gotta admit it's not much of a choice - get to hear what I
had for breakfast or have your exam papers marked by the likes of
Plowie....??

;-)

Too neat to waste...
 

"Keith G" wrote


Anyway, even I gotta admit it's not much of a choice - get to hear what I
had for breakfast or have your exam papers marked by the likes of
Plowie....??



PS: Real neat trick on the 'Infidelios' this morning, but I'd better not say
anything.....

;-)

Too neat to waste...
 

"Wally" wrote in message

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most
genuine sound enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining.

In a quirky sort of way.

What he's doing is right in line with the spirit of the
'rec' part of the group's name.

As are posts from people of the sonic accuracy persuasion.

Regarding your "flowery"
remark, Keith is one of the most skilled users of
language in here.

...in the eye of the beholder.

Maybe you just don't understand why he
does it, or why people come to this (or any other) group.

Here's a much-needed hint for you Wally: Not everybody comes here for the
same reason.

Seems to me that you expect this to be a place where the
discourse is dry and factual, where only equipment of a
certain standard is worthy.

There's nothing that says that discourse that is factual is necessarily dry.
In fact there's nothing more exciting than important truths, clearly stated.

You don't have to read his stuff, and you don't have to
whine about it, either.

Yup, in "Wally world" all opinions that conflict with Wally are whines.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it
out like we have all just got off the boat, but he
don't got the balls to back up the crap he posts with
any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just
got off the boat. Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell
the
difference between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly
tell the LP copy from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it
shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win
the Vinyl Wars? (See below...)

The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why are you still
fighting it, Keith?

Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two
decades

No, its in decline again. People can get CD players that simulate scratching
well enough, now.

every turntable manufacturer in the world has
brought out new models and even people like MF and EAR
have got into it

Each selling a few turntables every month compared to the millions of
digital A/V players sold every month?

. Competition for high quality turntables
and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious,
cartridge/deck manufacturers are bringing out new models
and the DJ scene has never been healthier!

Yes, the DJ scene is far healthier since the vinyl umbilical cord was cut.

You lost. Get over it....

???????????????

No way!

That you choose to ignore this most fundamental of flaws
means you're really not worth trying to educate over
other matters like horn colouration, break up of cones
with full range drivers, etc etc.

Educate?

True, anybody who is a die-hard vinyl bigot 20 years after the fact is
arguably impossible to educate. Old dogs and new tricks, etc.

You really think I need/could get an education from you?

Well, there's need and there's the possibility of a very rusty screw ever
getting turned without breaking.

(You really think you're placed to educate me?)

Having two or more synapses to rub together and make a logical though is
qualification enough.

Laughable!


No, pathetic.

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.

They what....??

If you can't answer it, avoid it - that's your preference, isn't it Keith?

That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

If you have to ask, you will probably not be able to understand the answer.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Wally" wrote in message

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press. That made most
genuine sound enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

Keith's stuff is on-topic, interesting, and entertaining.

In a quirky sort of way.


:-)



What he's doing is right in line with the spirit of the
'rec' part of the group's name.

As are posts from people of the sonic accuracy persuasion.


.....which attract no comment or criticism from me until those posters decide
to try and chew on my arse....

Too neat to waste...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it
out like we have all just got off the boat, but he
don't got the balls to back up the crap he posts with
any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just
got off the boat. Take a CD and copy it to another CD. You'll not tell
the
difference between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly
tell the LP copy from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that it
shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win
the Vinyl Wars? (See below...)

The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why are you still
fighting it, Keith?


The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or two ago. Redirect
your question to Plowie...



Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two
decades

No, its in decline again.


Wrong.


People can get CD players that simulate scratching
well enough, now.


Reviled by the Old School DJs I gather....???




every turntable manufacturer in the world has
brought out new models and even people like MF and EAR
have got into it

Each selling a few turntables every month compared to the millions of
digital A/V players sold every month?


Immaterial, one *more* turntable sold each month represents a growth....

How many *less* CDPs are are being sold month by month now....???



Educate?

True, anybody who is a die-hard vinyl bigot 20 years after the fact is
arguably impossible to educate. Old dogs and new tricks, etc.

You really think I need/could get an education from you?

Well, there's need and there's the possibility of a very rusty screw ever
getting turned without breaking.


You're making a fundamental error - 20 years ago I wasn't playing music of
any kind. Other than a few long-lost (not all, asitappens) LPs back in my
teens, I wasn't *into it* at all. My *choice* of vinyl is nore more than 7/8
years old, when I knew CD wasn't ever going to cut the mustard...



I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the very
worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.

They what....??

If you can't answer it, avoid it - that's your preference, isn't it Keith?


Stoppit Arny - you and Plowie are the worst 'selective snippers' here! Read
the words again *carefully* - he's left a 'when your flowery descriptions'
hanging...



That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

If you have to ask, you will probably not be able to understand the
answer.


Try me....

Too neat to waste...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Wally" wrote in message


What he's doing is right in line with the spirit of the
'rec' part of the group's name.

As are posts from people of the sonic accuracy
persuasion.

....which attract no comment or criticism from me until
those posters decide to try and chew on my arse....

Time to thicken up your thin skin a bit, Keith.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it
out like we have all just got off the boat, but he
don't got the balls to back up the crap he posts with
any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just
got off the boat. Take a CD and copy it to another CD.
You'll not tell the
difference between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly
tell the LP copy from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that
it shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win
the Vinyl Wars? (See below...)

The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why
are you still fighting it, Keith?

The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or
two ago. Redirect your question to Plowie...

Wrong.

Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two
decades

No, its in decline again.

Wrong.

Wrong.

People can get CD players that simulate scratching
well enough, now.

Reviled by the Old School DJs I gather....???

Why should we care about the Luddites?

every turntable manufacturer in the world has
brought out new models and even people like MF and EAR
have got into it

Each selling a few turntables every month compared to
the millions of digital A/V players sold every month?

Immaterial, one *more* turntable sold each month
represents a growth....

And the millions of digital players sold each month represent relative
shrinkage of the turntable market.

How many *less* CDPs are are being sold month by month
now....???

Here's a much needed clue, Keith. There's a difference between CD players
which you are talking about and digital players which is what I was talking
about.l

Educate?

True, anybody who is a die-hard vinyl bigot 20 years
after the fact is arguably impossible to educate. Old
dogs and new tricks, etc.

Keith has no rebuttal.

You really think I need/could get an education from you?

Well, there's need, and there's the possibility of a very
rusty screw ever getting turned without breaking.

You're making a fundamental error - 20 years ago I wasn't
playing music of any kind.

That would be your fundamental error Keith, not mine.

Other than a few long-lost
(not all, asitappens) LPs back in my teens, I wasn't
*into it* at all.

Sort of like teenagers who find that they like to ride on a horse, I guess.

My *choice* of vinyl is nore more than
7/8 years old, when I knew CD wasn't ever going to cut
the mustard...

Here's another much-needed clue Keith: The purpose of CDs is listening to
music not slicing mustard. Why would one want to slice mustard, anyhow? ;-)

I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the
very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.

They what....??

If you can't answer it, avoid it - that's your
preference, isn't it Keith?

Stoppit Arny - you and Plowie are the worst 'selective
snippers' here! Read the words again *carefully* - he's
left a 'when your flowery descriptions' hanging...

Whine, whine, whine.

That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

If you have to ask, you will probably not be able to
understand the answer.

Try me....

You're not my kind, Keith.

Too neat to waste...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The worst offender here by far is Plowie - he hands it
out like we have all just got off the boat, but he
don't got the balls to back up the crap he posts with
any concrete evidence or specific information.

Sigh. You prefer vinyl to CD. So in many ways have just
got off the boat. Take a CD and copy it to another CD.
You'll not tell the
difference between them.

Take that same CD and copy it to LP. You'll instantly
tell the LP copy from the CD master.

This means LP is *adding* something to the audio that
it shouldn't.


Dear oh dear...

Is that what this is all about? You still trying to win
the Vinyl Wars? (See below...)

The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why
are you still fighting it, Keith?

The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or
two ago. Redirect your question to Plowie...

Wrong.


Not wrong.



Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two
decades

No, its in decline again.

Wrong.

Wrong.


Wronger.



People can get CD players that simulate scratching
well enough, now.

Reviled by the Old School DJs I gather....???

Why should we care about the Luddites?


Why should they care about you?




every turntable manufacturer in the world has
brought out new models and even people like MF and EAR
have got into it

Each selling a few turntables every month compared to
the millions of digital A/V players sold every month?

Immaterial, one *more* turntable sold each month
represents a growth....

And the millions of digital players sold each month represent relative
shrinkage of the turntable market.

How many *less* CDPs are are being sold month by month
now....???

Here's a much needed clue, Keith. There's a difference between CD players
which you are talking about and digital players which is what I was
talking about.l


Here's another - who cares?

Why don't you add in computer DVDRWs? It would strengthen your very feeble
argument....


Sort of like teenagers who find that they like to ride on a horse, I
guess.


Streuth....



My *choice* of vinyl is nore more than
7/8 years old, when I knew CD wasn't ever going to cut
the mustard...

Here's another much-needed clue Keith: The purpose of CDs is listening to
music not slicing mustard. Why would one want to slice mustard, anyhow?
;-)


You're in danger of inconsequating yourself....



I'm happy that you enjoy your hobby and certainly that
you make so much of your own bits and bobs, but when
your flowery descriptions of just how much improved the
latest one is over last weeks delight read like the
very worst excesses of the Hi-Fi press.

They what....??

If you can't answer it, avoid it - that's your
preference, isn't it Keith?

Stoppit Arny - you and Plowie are the worst 'selective
snippers' here! Read the words again *carefully* - he's
left a 'when your flowery descriptions' hanging...

Whine, whine, whine.


Do stop that *whining* FFS!



That made most genuine sound
enthusiasts simply stop buying them.

WTF is a 'sound enthusiast'...??

If you have to ask, you will probably not be able to
understand the answer.

Try me....

You're not my kind, Keith.


Nor you mine, so at least we are in accord there....

:-)


But continued avoidance of answering the question noted...

Too neat to waste...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Wally" wrote in message


What he's doing is right in line with the spirit of the
'rec' part of the group's name.

As are posts from people of the sonic accuracy
persuasion.

....which attract no comment or criticism from me until
those posters decide to try and chew on my arse....

Time to thicken up your thin skin a bit, Keith.


And give my car a wash, eh?

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sorry - I can't be arsed with it, you do your thing, I'll do mine....

Obviously not then. As I said, more of a Blog.



OK, Plowie - you're in luck, I got a few minutes.

You consider 'I'm in luck' because you reply to a post of mine? How very
gracious of you...

(Swim's watching another
sodding TV programme now, finishes in 10 minutes??)

Nice to know you do what you're told.

Sure it's a blog - an Audio Blog, if I throw in a few extras that's my
prerogative and my style. (You don't get to dictate what people post
here, much as you would like to.)

And nor do you, my friend, much as you'd like to.

Now, one question for you - would you rather I didn't post?

Why would it bother me one way or another?

Simple yes or no answer

Life ain't simple.

- I'm not interested in what you consider ukra
to be (helpdesk, techno knobwaving arena or whatever...)??

You might look at the charter - if one exists.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why are you still
fighting it, Keith?


The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or two ago.

If they were it was because the likes of you drove sensible types away
with your acid tongue. As you've said in another post many can't be
bothered with being slagged off for being right. ;-)

And, of course, you have your very own group - uk.rec.audio.vinyl - which
is virtually moribund apart from a few adverts. What does that say to you?

Redirect your question to Plowie...

--
*Does fuzzy logic tickle? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Too neat to waste...
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

Here's a much-needed hint for you Wally: Not everybody comes here for
the same reason.

QED.


Yup, in "Wally world" ...

10/10 for effort, but minus several million for imagination.


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sorry - I can't be arsed with it, you do your thing, I'll do mine....

Obviously not then. As I said, more of a Blog.



OK, Plowie - you're in luck, I got a few minutes.

You consider 'I'm in luck' because you reply to a post of mine? How very
gracious of you...



Reply typed and deleted - I really can't be arsed...



I tell you what, if I post anything here consider it directed *not* at you
unless it's a specific reply like this one and then you needn't trouble
yourself with it - OK?

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why are you still
fighting it, Keith?


The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or two ago.

If they were it was because the likes of you drove sensible types away
with your acid tongue. As you've said in another post many can't be
bothered with being slagged off for being right. ;-)

And, of course, you have your very own group - uk.rec.audio.vinyl - which
is virtually moribund apart from a few adverts. What does that say to you?

Redirect your question to Plowie...



I already said - I really can't be arsed.....

Too neat to waste...
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:



Vinyl is stronger than it has been for the last two decades - every
turntable manufacturer in the world has brought out new models and even
people like MF and EAR have got into it. Competition for high quality
turntables and vinyl accessories on eBay is ferocious, cartridge/deck
manufacturers are bringing out new models and the DJ scene has never
been healthier!

You lost. Get over it....

Well, I continue, each year, to ask my undergrad classes about the audio
systems they have, etc. During the last few years *none* of them said they
have any LPs/Vinyl or any means of replaying them. The general reaction is
puzzlement why anyone would. Occasionally one says something like, "You
mean like DJs/Grandad use?", though.

There are still, of course, many people like myself who have a 'legacy'
collection of LPs, so have means of playing them. When I play one I tend to
enjoy it, but alas I also still often find the pops and crackles or the wow
of off-center pressings noticable. I am also increasingly aware of the
potential difficulty of obtaining replacement stylii for decades-old
cartridges.

There are also, of course, some people with a special interest, and the
audio magazines cater to many of these. However my impression is that they
are only a tiny fraction of the general population of the UK. Indeed, when
I discuss 'hifi' with most people they seem utterly baffled by the
behaviour of 'audio enthusiasts'. Increasingly, I find I meet people who
have never seen an LP, let alone listened to one.

Hence I find the implication that Vinyl has 'won' rather odd...

I suspect that there are still makers of horse whips and riding tackle,
supplying a niche market. Similarly, my impression is that Vinyl has
*survived* as a tiny niche market, within another niche market. This is
fine for those who like to ride a horse or play an LP, but given the status
and scope of these activities in earlier decades, I would not call it a
'win'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Too neat to waste...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The vinyl/CD war was won by CD almost 20 years ago. Why
are you still fighting it, Keith?


The 'Vinyl Wars' in this ng were won by vinyl a year or
two ago.

If they were it was because the likes of you drove
sensible types away with your acid tongue. As you've said
in another post many can't be bothered with being slagged
off for being right. ;-)

And, of course, you have your very own group -
uk.rec.audio.vinyl - which is virtually moribund apart
from a few adverts. What does that say to you?

Ironic that uk.rec.audio.vinyl became moribund almost on the day it opened
for business. If this is victory, I'd hate to see what a defeat looks like.
OTOH it isn't a victory, so the defeat of Keith's delusional thinking looks
fine!