A Audio, hi-fi and car audio  forum. Audio Banter

Go Back   Home » Audio Banter forum » UK Audio Newsgroups » uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi) (uk.rec.audio) Discussion and exchange of hi-fi audio equipment.

amazing miracle device



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 03:34 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,872
Default amazing miracle device

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
For all your OSAFs, putting words into people's mouths, dubious
'technical' information, strawmen arguments and ludicrous tub-thumping,
you haven't, to my knowledge, put *one single person* off vinyl - just
about *everybody* I know with a 'hifi system' uses and *still* enjoys
it!


Crikey. You must move in extremely restricted circles. Or perhaps just
choose your friends because they agree with you?

I'm trying to think when last I saw a turntable in someone's house. Apart
from mine, of course. Non of my music loving friends still have one in use
- although several have attics full of vinyl.

--


Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #92 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 04:13 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default amazing miracle device


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
For all your OSAFs, putting words into people's mouths, dubious
'technical' information, strawmen arguments and ludicrous tub-thumping,
you haven't, to my knowledge, put *one single person* off vinyl - just
about *everybody* I know with a 'hifi system' uses and *still* enjoys
it!


Crikey. You must move in extremely restricted circles. Or perhaps just
choose your friends because they agree with you?

I'm trying to think when last I saw a turntable in someone's house. Apart
from mine, of course. Non of my music loving friends still have one in use
- although several have attics full of vinyl.




Full?

You'd better advise them to get a structural engineer to check the
loadings - all sounds a bit dicky to me...???




  #93 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 06:55 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 84
Default amazing miracle device

Don Pearce wrote:
On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 09:04:36 +0100, Rob
wrote:

The problem is nobody here will discuss it! I do not believe they are
(all) stupid so I can only assume that they are in denial else why
would they attempt to defend the indefensible? However, I must admit
that there was no defence offered to the Physics issue. I wonder why!
Would it lessen the shock if CDs were made from clear vinyl do you
think?
I really don't know why apparently intelligent people give all sorts of
non sequitur answers to my questions about why they actually think vinyl
is ever better. To say the odd example sounds better than a badly mastered
CD from the same source is simply neither here nor there.

I suspect it could be to do with five things: the 'distortion', the
processing involved in converting analogue to digital and then back to
analogue, the CD standard cannot capture all the sound, sub-LP standard
transfer to CD, and a fifth - I'd bundle perception, the aural
experience (lack of understanding/appreciation), marketing, association
and a number of other intangibles that don't spring to mind.


Interesting list, but could you expand and explain?


Nope :-). It's a simple list of suppositions, grounded in bits and
pieces I've picked up here and there, that I've yet to be persuaded are
irrelevant to this argument. i can expand a little:

1. The distortion. What distortion are you referring to here?

Inverted commas distortion: dynamic harmonics.

2. A/D and D/A processing. What aspects of this processing do you have
in mind?


The supposition that a conversion process is taking place, and anomalies
in reproduction can take place because of that process.

3. CD unable to capture all the sound. What do you believe it doesn't
capture?

I don't believe one way or the other - it's just the supposition that
analogue reproduction has a wider frequency range (compared to CD), and
therefore all the sound is not necessarily there.

4. Sub-LP standard transfer to CD. What would be the reason for the
transfer to be sub-LP standard?


Poor production - the people that managed the CD production made a hash
of it, perhaps to produce what they thought to be a more marketable
sound (more bass and treble, say). The people that managed the LP
production made a better job of it

5. Aural experience. Do you mean the psychological effect of CD vs.
vinyl perception, irrespective of the actual sound?


Yes, that's a possibility - some people might be susceptible to the
knowledge that it's vinyl, cassette, radio, cd or whatever.

Finally, and snipped, is the possibility (the strongest of all) that
people just prefer the music from vinyl. 'Why' would be nice, but the
answer is unlikely to involve a slide rule, and is unlikely to trouble
the technically inclined.

If any of these factors have no bearing on the notion that vinyl can
sound better than CD, i'm sure you'll tell me :-)

Rob


  #94 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 08:53 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Arny Krueger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,850
Default amazing miracle device


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Why TF do you even bother with all this crap Arny?


Because people even bother with all the false crap that I just rebutted.

For all your OSAFs, putting words into people's mouths, dubious
'technical' information, strawmen arguments and ludicrous tub-thumping,
you haven't, to my knowledge, put *one single person* off vinyl - just
about *everybody* I know with a 'hifi system' uses and *still* enjoys it!


As if that was my intent. FWIW I am among the very few people I know who has
a vinyl playback system. I don't know about everthing that is going on in
the UK, but finding active, in-use vinyl playback equipment outside of dance
halls is pretty hard to do in the US.

(Perhaps, if you contacted the UK TV broadcasting companies, you could get
them to stop showing pix of records and turntables on a damn near *daily*
basis and give yourself a better chances of eradicating vinyl from the
planet.....???)


It happens occasionally in the states. There are usually credits to the
vinyl equipment suppliers in among the other credits.

What was it - 'protecting the newbies from the dangers of vinyl'...??


No, just rebutting the usual BS from the ignorant and misguided who actually
think that the vinyl format has any unique inherent SQ advantages.


  #95 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 10:04 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
tony sayer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,042
Default amazing miracle device

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
writes
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Tape doesn't even come close to 16 bit PCM. It's a big miss, even 15 ips
half-track. If you're talking cassette, its a miss by several miles.
Note even the same postal zone.


Sure there are differences, but in practice 1/4 half track stereo at 15ips
with Dolby SR ain't half bad. ;-)


No its not at all, and in practice its well up to the job but the
problem is that what it records then has to be distributed;!...

--
Tony Sayer

  #96 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 10:16 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default amazing miracle device


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Why TF do you even bother with all this crap Arny?


Because people even bother with all the false crap that I just rebutted.

For all your OSAFs, putting words into people's mouths, dubious
'technical' information, strawmen arguments and ludicrous tub-thumping,
you haven't, to my knowledge, put *one single person* off vinyl - just
about *everybody* I know with a 'hifi system' uses and *still* enjoys it!


As if that was my intent.



The words 'protecting the newbies from the dangers of vinyl' (below) were
*yours* a year or two ago....


FWIW I am among the very few people I know who has
a vinyl playback system.



I suppose some of your best friends are Jewish also?


I don't know about everthing that is going on in
the UK, but finding active, in-use vinyl playback equipment outside of
dance halls is pretty hard to do in the US.



Last night there was a record player in Brad Pitt's place (Se7en on DVD),
earlier tonight I noticed Keany Reeves giving Charlize Theron (?) a boxed
set of records - no idea what the film was (I wasn't watching the telly),
but I gather it was her birthday or summat?

Vinyl features in movies (even very recent ones) as a matter of course it
appears - I find it hard to believe you don't know anyone in the real world
who uses it...



(Perhaps, if you contacted the UK TV broadcasting companies, you could
get them to stop showing pix of records and turntables on a damn near
*daily* basis and give yourself a better chances of eradicating vinyl
from the planet.....???)


It happens occasionally in the states. There are usually credits to the
vinyl equipment suppliers in among the other credits.

What was it - 'protecting the newbies from the dangers of vinyl'...??


No, just rebutting the usual BS from the ignorant and misguided who
actually think that the vinyl format has any unique inherent SQ
advantages.



Wouldn't know and don't care - I play it only for the *sound*....

Consider this - 50s Jazz and 60s Rock on anything *other* than vinyl....??

(Ludicrous prospect, isn't it! ;-)



  #97 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 10:34 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default amazing miracle device


I would put the 'problem' slightly differently, It is that any 'analog'
system which has no accompanying error detection and correction
mechanisms...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A TT/Arm/Cart doesn't have any error detection or correction mechanisms does
it? (I am deliberately excluding 'bias' here as, correct me if I'm wrong ,
I don't think you are referring to this and besides, this is another can of
worms that I have no desire to open.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...tends to end up with a level of performance which strongly depends on
how
well each specific instance was designed and made.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree in so far as some will be better designed and manufactured and thus
will presumably do a better job than the poorly designed 'Friday afternoon
special'!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thus there are some LPs and LP playing systems which can deliver better
results than others simply as a result of being made and used with
particular care and skill.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree here too, but the best mechanical design coupled with the greatest
care in manufacture will still obey, and be restricted/hampered by, the laws
of physics.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On this basis the advantage of 'digital' systems is that their ability to
carry information is not so linearily dependent on avoiding small
imperfections. One example has already been mentioned. That an otherwise
well made CD can have a 1mm hole in it, yet reproduce the same waveforms
as
if the hole hadn'y been made. Whereas I doubt many people would have the
courage to even try playing an LP with a 1mm hole drilled into the playing
area of the disc. :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't put money on it!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In principle, we could have made 'better' analog systems. e.g. used a
higher playing rotation rate, etc. But this would sacrifice playing time
for other factors. i.e. a trade-off of the kind familiar to engineers.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, higher rotational speeds would improve (but not alleviate) things in
some areas (the inertia problem for one) but, as you quite rightly state,
worsen them in others (increased noise, heat, wear for example).
It would seriously have to whiz around before Newtonian laws of motion gave
out (and Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity kicked in)!
Even I think that would be taking things a little to far! if for no other
reason than an LP would only play for a billionth of a nano second or so
(wild guess). I accept that those who have severe restrictions on available
listening time may wish to disagree
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My experience is that I have some LPs that actually sound very good. These
are the ones that were well made, and have remained undamaged, and where
the recording didn't 'push the limits' of the system. But with CDs the
situation I experience is that I rarely encounter quality problems due to
the physical CD. Any problems tend to be because the orginal recording
made
onto the CD was deficient in some way. So, for example, if I hear
background noise or distortion when playing a CD I tend to suspect that
this was what was placed onto it, and isn't due to a physical imperfection
of the CD itself. Whereas if I hear background noise on an LP I suspect
that EMI had decided it was cheaper to pop the LP out of the press before
the surface had properly formed. :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too have some LPs that I consider to be very good indeed. Joan
Armatrading's efforts for example will be familiar to many I am sure. Dave
Grusin's offerings are, in my opinion, truly outstanding (although I believe
he does, or at least did, favour digital). Those not familiar with his work
may care to give it a try. Many will not agree with me but those that do may
well find the need to take another look at the use of a digital source in
the studio. Of course, I find the CD versions to be even better!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Clearly, the level achieved is satisfactory for many. It isn't for me,
especially as other methods are demonstrably better. I would disagree
with you when you state '...imperfections and limitations that stem from
design'. I would guess that any half reasonable design would, through
necessity, have been conceived only after careful consideration of known
principles and material properties.



Indeed, but the primary purpose of most music carriers isn't actually
'superb fidelity'. It is to make units that sell in large enough numbers
for the owners of the record companies to be able to buy large cigars.
:-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, but, given the overwhelming evidence, would you not agree that a
better, more capable product will be had with CD? The owners who embrace CD
would also get through more cigars I'll wager. However, within my humble
home studio setup I can afford (not financially unfortunately) to take the
time and expend as much effort and care as possible to get the best results
I can with the resources available to me. This is precisely why I will only
use digital.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


FWIW My personal concerns for some years have been mainly with areas like
the design and use of speakers. Compared with the problems in that area, I
have no real worries about CD-A that are on a similar scale. Nice that
DVD-V's of concerts tend to have 48 ks/sec LPCM, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is clear that all components in the chain are immensely important if
fidelity, rather than a 'type' of sound, is the goal. However, if the
source (at the creation, mastering or retrieval phase) is poor then GIGO!
There can be no recovery. Unless high quality garbage is the goal, there is
little point in striving for improvements in other areas of the system.

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  #98 (permalink)  
Old August 3rd 06, 11:24 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,872
Default amazing miracle device

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Vinyl features in movies (even very recent ones) as a matter of course
it appears - I find it hard to believe you don't know anyone in the
real world who uses it...


The movies reflect real life? Hang on while I nip into a telephone box...

--
*No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver,purple

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #99 (permalink)  
Old August 4th 06, 06:02 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Iain Churches
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 617
Default amazing miracle device


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Iain, of course, has an axe to grind since he makes a living out of
supplying/using old technology for those who want it, and good luck to
him, but why the others like a recorded medium that alters and degrades
the original master when better alternatives exist I'll never know.


Dave. Please stop this irritating spate of dissemination of
false information. I do not make a living in the way you
describe above. The great majority of the project in which
I am involved are 24bit digital. If a client asks for analogue
multitrack (as is sometimes the case in jazz or R+R concerts)
then ours is one of the few crews that can supply this and
have the expertise required for its use. Monitoring is also
something in which many clients like to have a say. A good
selection of professional monitors and amplifiers is available,
plus valve power amps if required.


As a man who seems so keen on accuracy in reproduced sound,
you seem remarkably lax with the written word:-)

Cheers
Iain



  #100 (permalink)  
Old August 4th 06, 08:17 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default amazing miracle device


No, just rebutting the usual BS from the ignorant and misguided who
actually think that the vinyl format has any unique inherent SQ
advantages.



Wouldn't know and don't care...

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you had an interest in fidelity you would want to know and you would
care!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

...I play it only for the *sound*....

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bingo!!!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider this - 50s Jazz and 60s Rock on anything *other* than vinyl....??


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I correct in thinking that 40s and 60s Jazz, 50s and 70s Rock etc is ok
on CD et al?
What was the change in those two decades (and only to those two genres I
presume) that made the difference?
Out of curiosity, do you know why 'they' found the need to revert or change
again?
Can you explain why those genres of music created in other decades fair less
well on vinyl?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Ludicrous prospect, isn't it! ;-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I must say that it is not the prospect that I find ludicrous
You certainly do have the gift for making people laugh (well me at any rate)
but, in all seriousness, I for one would like your explanation.
I am always willing to learn from an authoritative source such as yourself


Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0
Copyright ©2004-2025 Audio Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.