Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

mb66 wrote:
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

This is probably just a matter of room acoustics.
I have only one place in my house which gives really precise 3D imaging
and that is where the speakers are in front of a large bay window with
heavy curtains behind.
The modern trend to starkly furnished rooms with hard floors rather
than plush carpet and soft furnishings does not help.
Try to get your speakers out from the walls and away from corners,and
try to avoid a wall immediately behind your listening position.
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.
Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to image
well.The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback.
Another consideration is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to
have amazingly 3D imaging.

JT

In article .com,
wrote:
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.

That sounds like phase problems or crosstalk. Are you really saying decent
commercial designs do this?

--
*When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are
capable of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that
is a sign of a preamp defficiency.

That sounds like phase problems or crosstalk. Are you really saying
decent commercial designs do this?

Despite having tried various preamps over the years, I've never encountered
one that performs as 'JT' describes. Unless he means that the channel
tracking on the volume pot is poor. But my impression is that this isn't
what he means.

I've certainly encountered such effects due to things like the speakers or
the room acoustics, though. One of the reasons I've ended up preferring
Electrostatics... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

wrote in message
oups.com...

mb66 wrote:
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

This is probably just a matter of room acoustics.
I have only one place in my house which gives really precise 3D imaging
and that is where the speakers are in front of a large bay window with
heavy curtains behind.
The modern trend to starkly furnished rooms with hard floors rather
than plush carpet and soft furnishings does not help.
Try to get your speakers out from the walls and away from corners,and
try to avoid a wall immediately behind your listening position.
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.
Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to image
well.The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback.
Another consideration is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to
have amazingly 3D imaging.

**Only to the permanently brain-damaged. The Gainclone is a cheap, crappy
power OP amp. The same product can be purchased for peanuts in any
department store. Just look for the cheapest all in one stereo you can find.
Whilst Gainclones are OK, they're hardly what one could call decent audio
amplifiers.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

wrote:


Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to image
well.The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback.
Another consideration is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to
have amazingly 3D imaging.

How wonderful to be able to believe two contradictory things at the same time.


--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

In article .com,
wrote:


Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to
image well.

Afraid the above strikes me as a sweeping generalisation that fails to
agree with my experience.

The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback. Another consideration
is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to have amazingly 3D
imaging.

Well, systems that suffer from microphony might alter the perceived imaging
as they would tend to add some 'reverb'. Having little or no feedback might
exacerbate this tendency, but it has little to do with feedback per se.

If the concern is for improved imaging, then I would suggest directing
attention to the choice of speakers, their placement in the room, the
listening position, and the room acoustics.

Also on the choice of source material. If I understood the OP correctly his
comment were based on just listening to one item. If so, the comments may
relate more to that than to the system used. You'd need to listen to a
variety of material to assess this.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....



No, feedback (external, global) is the last thng you need - what you almost
certainly heard there was probably a 'SET' (single ended triode) amp.

Depth and pinpoint imaging are what SETs do - in spades. They will work with
any capable speaker, but factor in fullrange driver speakers (without
crossovers) and you move up to *holographic* imaging. The downside is SETs
are usually (but not always) low-powered and you need very sensitive
speakers to get a big sound - neither is plentiful or cheap, unless you buy
Chinese or build your own....

(I won't mention a decent vinyl rig with a quality MC cart and valve phono
stage, to round it all off....!! ;-)

"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

**Apart from room acoustics (which was previously mentioned), the next
things which need to be carefully considered a

* Speaker quality. A speaker which has been designed to reduce 'diffraction
effects' (rounded corners, etc) will affect image depth.
* A valve preamp stage, due to it's microphonics, will add excessive and
artificial depth to all recordings. Listen carefully and you will probably
find that it also has a bloated and artificial width as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Thanks Trevor, you are not to the first to mention artificial image
depth or the fact that there would potentially be a trade off in other
areas but I suspect you are correct. In my current setup it seems that
all the players are seated on a widish park bench playing beautifully,
but I continue to search for an improvement. Room is 6m x 5m so I am
trying some bigger speakers soon, see if that helps a bit. Thanks to
you all for the feedback and comments.



Trevor Wilson wrote:
"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

**Apart from room acoustics (which was previously mentioned), the next
things which need to be carefully considered a

* Speaker quality. A speaker which has been designed to reduce 'diffraction
effects' (rounded corners, etc) will affect image depth.
* A valve preamp stage, due to it's microphonics, will add excessive and
artificial depth to all recordings. Listen carefully and you will probably
find that it also has a bloated and artificial width as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com