Soundstage and depth of image
 

Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

Soundstage and depth of image
 

mb66 wrote:
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

This is probably just a matter of room acoustics.
I have only one place in my house which gives really precise 3D imaging
and that is where the speakers are in front of a large bay window with
heavy curtains behind.
The modern trend to starkly furnished rooms with hard floors rather
than plush carpet and soft furnishings does not help.
Try to get your speakers out from the walls and away from corners,and
try to avoid a wall immediately behind your listening position.
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.
Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to image
well.The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback.
Another consideration is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to
have amazingly 3D imaging.

JT

Soundstage and depth of image
 

In article .com,
wrote:
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.

That sounds like phase problems or crosstalk. Are you really saying decent
commercial designs do this?

--
*When I'm not in my right mind, my left mind gets pretty crowded *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Soundstage and depth of image
 

"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....



No, feedback (external, global) is the last thng you need - what you almost
certainly heard there was probably a 'SET' (single ended triode) amp.

Depth and pinpoint imaging are what SETs do - in spades. They will work with
any capable speaker, but factor in fullrange driver speakers (without
crossovers) and you move up to *holographic* imaging. The downside is SETs
are usually (but not always) low-powered and you need very sensitive
speakers to get a big sound - neither is plentiful or cheap, unless you buy
Chinese or build your own....

(I won't mention a decent vinyl rig with a quality MC cart and valve phono
stage, to round it all off....!! ;-)

Soundstage and depth of image
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

mb66 wrote:
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

This is probably just a matter of room acoustics.
I have only one place in my house which gives really precise 3D imaging
and that is where the speakers are in front of a large bay window with
heavy curtains behind.
The modern trend to starkly furnished rooms with hard floors rather
than plush carpet and soft furnishings does not help.
Try to get your speakers out from the walls and away from corners,and
try to avoid a wall immediately behind your listening position.
Also a good preamp is essentual for good imaging.Most preamps fail in
this regard,although even some of the old NADs -like a 1240 are capable
of this.If voices sound very wide or wander around then that is a sign
of a preamp defficiency.
Amps that use a lot of negative feedback also tend not to image
well.The Audionotes have low or zero negative feedback.
Another consideration is trying a Gainclone type chip amp.These seem to
have amazingly 3D imaging.

**Only to the permanently brain-damaged. The Gainclone is a cheap, crappy
power OP amp. The same product can be purchased for peanuts in any
department store. Just look for the cheapest all in one stereo you can find.
Whilst Gainclones are OK, they're hardly what one could call decent audio
amplifiers.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

**Apart from room acoustics (which was previously mentioned), the next
things which need to be carefully considered a

* Speaker quality. A speaker which has been designed to reduce 'diffraction
effects' (rounded corners, etc) will affect image depth.
* A valve preamp stage, due to it's microphonics, will add excessive and
artificial depth to all recordings. Listen carefully and you will probably
find that it also has a bloated and artificial width as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Thanks Trevor, you are not to the first to mention artificial image
depth or the fact that there would potentially be a trade off in other
areas but I suspect you are correct. In my current setup it seems that
all the players are seated on a widish park bench playing beautifully,
but I continue to search for an improvement. Room is 6m x 5m so I am
trying some bigger speakers soon, see if that helps a bit. Thanks to
you all for the feedback and comments.



Trevor Wilson wrote:
"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

**Apart from room acoustics (which was previously mentioned), the next
things which need to be carefully considered a

* Speaker quality. A speaker which has been designed to reduce 'diffraction
effects' (rounded corners, etc) will affect image depth.
* A valve preamp stage, due to it's microphonics, will add excessive and
artificial depth to all recordings. Listen carefully and you will probably
find that it also has a bloated and artificial width as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Soundstage and depth of image
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"mb66" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello, perhaps someone out there can help me - some years ago I
purchased a hifi setup which relative to other kit I listened to
sounded good. It was a Restek CD, Pre-amp and monoblocs, along with
some Dynaudio Craft speakers. The sound was improved with some quality
cardas golden cross leads and a Townshend seismic sink. My problem is
this, when demo-ing speaker cables a friend who worked in a hifi shop
in london let me listen to a system he had set up in the crudest manner
but it had the most incredible depth of soundstage I have ever heard. I
played one track on it - it was the only cd I had with me by Crowded
House, track was 'Four seasons in one day' - it was amazing I could
picture each instrument so clearly - it was just so realistic. The
system used was a TEAC VRCD? CD player, an Audionote valve integrated
amp and some DALI bookshelf speakers propped up in the crudest of
fashions. I have trudged hifi shops and home demo'd kit for the last
five or so years to try and recreate that elusive sound vowing not to
spend any more money on 'tweaks' until I can find it. Question is was
that sound a fluke of the components and environment or was there a key
component in there - perhaps the speakers? Anybody got a system out
there that creates that holgraphic soundstage on the track I mention
above?
Unfortunately my friend moved on and I have never managed to get those
components together again.
Any feedback greatly appreciated....

**Apart from room acoustics (which was previously mentioned), the next
things which need to be carefully considered a

* Speaker quality. A speaker which has been designed to reduce 'diffraction
effects' (rounded corners, etc) will affect image depth.
* A valve preamp stage, due to it's microphonics, will add excessive and
artificial depth to all recordings. Listen carefully and you will probably
find that it also has a bloated and artificial width as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Trevor,

Keep the spin coming Trevor.Or is it just dogma?

The Gainclone chip amps were evolved by the former Head of Design at
Luxman.This is the man who dared to make tube amps and low negative
feedback SS amps at Luxman during the 1970s when it was very
unfashionable.[The Duo Beta series of SS amps]
His amp and preamp designs are noted for their ability to image
precisely[relatively anyway], which is something very rare in
mainstream equipment from that era.Clearly he discovered similar traits
with chip amps and this motivated him to start 47 Labs.
These things are not perfect,and the component cost might be low-but
they really do put to shame even expensive and well designed SS amps
when it comes to imaging precision and depth.Especially those with high
damping factors and feedback.

JT

Soundstage and depth of image
 

one further point that has not yet been raised is the angle between the
loudspeakers at the position of the listener. For stereo recorded with
crossed figure-of-eight microphones this angle should be 90 degrees. I
don't know whether present day recordings have instruments placed in
the same way, but for classical recodings that is still the convention
I believe.

I agree that the room acoustic is the most likely to interfer with the
stereo stage if the room is not acustucally 'dead' enough.

Robert