In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:
Everything helps. Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono plugs.
Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times dependent
on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc. But hey we're stuck with the
phono connection so we'd better make the best of a 'bad' job. In my time
I've manufactured many thousands of phono cables as a business, in the
course of things I've used most of the more popular makes

snip

In my experience, when a phono gives connection problems, it's invariably
the 'spring' of the *socket* centre which is at fault.

If you regularly plug and unplug home made leads then a large plug with a
good cord grip makes sense.

--
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:
Everything helps. Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono plugs.
Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times dependent
on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc. But hey we're stuck with the
phono connection so we'd better make the best of a 'bad' job. In my time
I've manufactured many thousands of phono cables as a business, in the
course of things I've used most of the more popular makes

snip

In my experience, when a phono gives connection problems, it's invariably
the 'spring' of the *socket* centre which is at fault.

If you regularly plug and unplug home made leads then a large plug with a
good cord grip makes sense.

--
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Agreed Dave, these problems come with use or age but there still is that fit
variability even with new ones.
Personally apart from the relatively small size I don't think the phono plug
has many saving graces. I still think it was a pity phono plugs ever
evolved into an domestic standard. Still its a bit better than DIN
connectors ;-)

Mike

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:
Everything helps. Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono plugs.
Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times dependent
on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc. But hey we're stuck with the
phono connection so we'd better make the best of a 'bad' job. In my time
I've manufactured many thousands of phono cables as a business, in the
course of things I've used most of the more popular makes

snip

In my experience, when a phono gives connection problems, it's invariably
the 'spring' of the *socket* centre which is at fault.

If you regularly plug and unplug home made leads then a large plug with a
good cord grip makes sense.

--
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Agreed Dave, these problems come with use or age but there still is that fit
variability even with new ones.
Personally apart from the relatively small size I don't think the phono plug
has many saving graces. I still think it was a pity phono plugs ever
evolved into an domestic standard. Still its a bit better than DIN
connectors ;-)

Mike

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:

Everything helps.

A claim that has been used to justify considerable gross excess. There is a
law of diminishing returns.

Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono
plugs.

Is a low-cost plug necessarily "iffy"?

Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times
dependent on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc.

AFAIK the RCA plug/jack was originally used to internally connect a 45 rpm
record player mechanism with a crystal cartridge to a two-tube power
transformerless mono amplifier and 4 inch speaker of such low grade
construction that it is virtually impossible to duplicate today.

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper audio
system can be constructed today with audio signals passing through exactly
zero of these techno-abortions.

But hey we're
stuck with the phono connection so we'd better make the best of a
'bad' job.

Fact of the matter is that the worst part of the RCA plug/jack design is the
jack, not the plug. Obsessing over plugs therefore doesn't make a lot of
sense unless it can be shown that a reasonable inexpensive design fails to
pass audio transparently as typically used.

The good thing about RCA plugs is that consumer audio is for most consumers,
a set and forget thing. As a plug/jack that is mated and unmated a minimal
number of times, as bad as it is, The RCA plug/jack is adequate if
reasonably well-implemented. Since warranty claims are of paramount
importance to reputable manufacturers, the plugs and jacks on most audio
gear in the category we call "mid fi" or better is usually up to the job.

In my time I've manufactured many thousands of phono
cables as a business, in the course of things I've used most of the
more popular makes

Hmmmm.

snip

In my experience, when a phono gives connection problems, it's
invariably the 'spring' of the *socket* centre which is at fault.

Agreed.

If you regularly plug and unplug home made leads then a large plug
with a good cord grip makes sense.

Agreed.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:

Everything helps.

A claim that has been used to justify considerable gross excess. There is
a
law of diminishing returns.

Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono
plugs.

Is a low-cost plug necessarily "iffy"?

IMO phono plug cost seems almost immaterial to effectivness, some cheap ones
are good, some expensive poor & vice versa.

Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times
dependent on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc.

AFAIK the RCA plug/jack was originally used to internally connect a 45 rpm
record player mechanism with a crystal cartridge to a two-tube power
transformerless mono amplifier and 4 inch speaker of such low grade
construction that it is virtually impossible to duplicate today.

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper
audio
system can be constructed today with audio signals passing through exactly
zero of these techno-abortions.

Agreed, but I'm sure the ubiquitious RCA will be with us for a while
yet..mores the pity.

But hey we're
stuck with the phono connection so we'd better make the best of a
'bad' job.

Fact of the matter is that the worst part of the RCA plug/jack design is
the
jack, not the plug. Obsessing over plugs therefore doesn't make a lot of
sense unless it can be shown that a reasonable inexpensive design fails to
pass audio transparently as typically used.

Agreed but trying several different makes of new plug into one jack does
show variability - one new plug I tested dropped out with the jack facing
down! (For test purpose only)

The good thing about RCA plugs is that consumer audio is for most
consumers,
a set and forget thing. As a plug/jack that is mated and unmated a minimal
number of times, as bad as it is, The RCA plug/jack is adequate if
reasonably well-implemented. Since warranty claims are of paramount
importance to reputable manufacturers, the plugs and jacks on most audio
gear in the category we call "mid fi" or better is usually up to the job.

But for high end probably not, because of many physically large heavy
cables...but I'm sure you'll have an opinion on that one :-)

In my time I've manufactured many thousands of phono
cables as a business, in the course of things I've used most of the
more popular makes

Hmmmm.

Meaning I most likely had experience with more phono plug/jack combinations
than the average consumer. Boring but true.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:

Everything helps.

A claim that has been used to justify considerable gross excess. There is
a
law of diminishing returns.

Why spoil your audio system by using iffy phono
plugs.

Is a low-cost plug necessarily "iffy"?

IMO phono plug cost seems almost immaterial to effectivness, some cheap ones
are good, some expensive poor & vice versa.

Phono connection can be pretty variable at the best of times
dependent on the make, manufacturing tolerances etc.

AFAIK the RCA plug/jack was originally used to internally connect a 45 rpm
record player mechanism with a crystal cartridge to a two-tube power
transformerless mono amplifier and 4 inch speaker of such low grade
construction that it is virtually impossible to duplicate today.

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper
audio
system can be constructed today with audio signals passing through exactly
zero of these techno-abortions.

Agreed, but I'm sure the ubiquitious RCA will be with us for a while
yet..mores the pity.

But hey we're
stuck with the phono connection so we'd better make the best of a
'bad' job.

Fact of the matter is that the worst part of the RCA plug/jack design is
the
jack, not the plug. Obsessing over plugs therefore doesn't make a lot of
sense unless it can be shown that a reasonable inexpensive design fails to
pass audio transparently as typically used.

Agreed but trying several different makes of new plug into one jack does
show variability - one new plug I tested dropped out with the jack facing
down! (For test purpose only)

The good thing about RCA plugs is that consumer audio is for most
consumers,
a set and forget thing. As a plug/jack that is mated and unmated a minimal
number of times, as bad as it is, The RCA plug/jack is adequate if
reasonably well-implemented. Since warranty claims are of paramount
importance to reputable manufacturers, the plugs and jacks on most audio
gear in the category we call "mid fi" or better is usually up to the job.

But for high end probably not, because of many physically large heavy
cables...but I'm sure you'll have an opinion on that one :-)

In my time I've manufactured many thousands of phono
cables as a business, in the course of things I've used most of the
more popular makes

Hmmmm.

Meaning I most likely had experience with more phono plug/jack combinations
than the average consumer. Boring but true.

more from the 'Arny Krueger school' of uk.rec.audio-ism:

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper
audio system can be constructed today with audio signals passing
through exactly zero of these techno-abortions.

Out of interest, what's so bad about the phono connector? They've always
seeemed, on admitedly an uninformed anaysis, to me intuative and rather
neat way to terminate coax.

Has a significent, audiable differences between short phono and XLR
terminated cables runs been demonstrated? Or is it merely a theoretical
shorcoming?

What do you suggest instead? I suppose toslink, or phono used digitally?

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

"Jim H" wrote in message

more from the 'Arny Krueger school' of uk.rec.audio-ism:

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper
audio system can be constructed today with audio signals passing
through exactly zero of these techno-abortions.

Out of interest, what's so bad about the phono connector? They've
always seeemed, on admitedly an uninformed anaysis, to me intuative
and rather neat way to terminate coax.

Has a significent, audible differences between short phono and XLR
terminated cables runs been demonstrated? Or is it merely a
theoretical shortcoming?

Compare and contrast XLR versus RCA

(1) XLR connectors have at least 2 insulated conductors plus ground so they
can be used for balanced I/O. The RCA can't. Advantage - far fewer problems
with hum and noise, particularly in complex setups.

(2) The XLR connector latches in place, so it doesn't fall out of its socket
by accident. The latching mechanism is very robust - you can hang relatively
heavy objects with a good quality XLR cable.

(3) There are no exposed signal-carrying parts with an XLR connectors, so
critical signal-carrying parts are mechanically protected when the plugs are
unmated.

(4) XLR connectors make the ground connection first and break it last. This
reduces noise and transients when you insert or remove them when equipment
is turned on.

(5) XLR connector signal-carrying pins are large and wipe over a long area
when the plug is mated.

(6) XLR connectors are self-centering and self-locating when you mate them.

(7) XLR connectors are very robust - you can step on them, even drive a
truck or run a road roller over them, and they will still work.

(8) Modern XLR connectors incorporate effective cable strain relief and are
easier to assemble than RCA connectors.

(9) Quality XLR connectors are relatively cheap compared to so-called high
quality but poorer performing RCA plugs. You can get a quality XLR connector
from a top manufacturer for under $2 in small quantities.

(10) Quality XLR cables are also relatively cheap compared to so-called high
quality but poorer performing RCA-based interconnects.

What do you suggest instead? I suppose toslink, or phono used digitally?

There's a digital standard that uses XLR plugs. It's called AES/EBU.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Jim H" wrote in message

more from the 'Arny Krueger school' of uk.rec.audio-ism:

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO a
miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a proper
audio system can be constructed today with audio signals passing
through exactly zero of these techno-abortions.

Out of interest, what's so bad about the phono connector? They've
always seeemed, on admitedly an uninformed anaysis, to me intuative
and rather neat way to terminate coax.

Has a significent, audible differences between short phono and XLR
terminated cables runs been demonstrated? Or is it merely a
theoretical shortcoming?

Compare and contrast XLR versus RCA

(1) XLR connectors have at least 2 insulated conductors plus ground so
they
can be used for balanced I/O. The RCA can't. Advantage - far fewer
problems
with hum and noise, particularly in complex setups.

(2) The XLR connector latches in place, so it doesn't fall out of its
socket
by accident. The latching mechanism is very robust - you can hang
relatively
heavy objects with a good quality XLR cable.

(3) There are no exposed signal-carrying parts with an XLR connectors, so
critical signal-carrying parts are mechanically protected when the plugs
are
unmated.

(4) XLR connectors make the ground connection first and break it last.
This
reduces noise and transients when you insert or remove them when equipment
is turned on.

(5) XLR connector signal-carrying pins are large and wipe over a long area
when the plug is mated.

(6) XLR connectors are self-centering and self-locating when you mate
them.

(7) XLR connectors are very robust - you can step on them, even drive a
truck or run a road roller over them, and they will still work.

(8) Modern XLR connectors incorporate effective cable strain relief and
are
easier to assemble than RCA connectors.

(9) Quality XLR connectors are relatively cheap compared to so-called high
quality but poorer performing RCA plugs. You can get a quality XLR
connector
from a top manufacturer for under $2 in small quantities.

(10) Quality XLR cables are also relatively cheap compared to so-called
high
quality but poorer performing RCA-based interconnects.

What do you suggest instead? I suppose toslink, or phono used
digitally?

There's a digital standard that uses XLR plugs. It's called AES/EBU.



Fun disadvantages of XLR in the domestic setting :

(1) When you trip over a lead the equipment comes too.
(2) You need serious back panel real-estate for home cinema.
(3) When plugging blind you need to align it.

Another advantage of XLR (leads):
(1) You can daisychain 'em easily

:-)

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Jim H" wrote in message

more from the 'Arny Krueger school' of uk.rec.audio-ism:

That it became the predominate connector for consumer audio is IMO
a miscarriage of justice and technology. The good news is that a
proper audio system can be constructed today with audio signals
passing through exactly zero of these techno-abortions.

Out of interest, what's so bad about the phono connector? They've
always seeemed, on admitedly an uninformed anaysis, to me intuative
and rather neat way to terminate coax.

Has a significent, audible differences between short phono and XLR
terminated cables runs been demonstrated? Or is it merely a
theoretical shortcoming?

Compare and contrast XLR versus RCA

(1) XLR connectors have at least 2 insulated conductors plus ground
so they can be used for balanced I/O. The RCA can't. Advantage - far
fewer problems with hum and noise, particularly in complex setups.

(2) The XLR connector latches in place, so it doesn't fall out of
its socket by accident. The latching mechanism is very robust - you
can hang relatively heavy objects with a good quality XLR cable.

(3) There are no exposed signal-carrying parts with an XLR
connectors, so critical signal-carrying parts are mechanically
protected when the plugs are unmated.

(4) XLR connectors make the ground connection first and break it
last. This reduces noise and transients when you insert or remove
them when equipment is turned on.

(5) XLR connector signal-carrying pins are large and wipe over a
long area when the plug is mated.

(6) XLR connectors are self-centering and self-locating when you
mate them.

(7) XLR connectors are very robust - you can step on them, even
drive a truck or run a road roller over them, and they will still
work.

(8) Modern XLR connectors incorporate effective cable strain relief
and are easier to assemble than RCA connectors.

(9) Quality XLR connectors are relatively cheap compared to
so-called high quality but poorer performing RCA plugs. You can get
a quality XLR connector from a top manufacturer for under $2 in
small quantities.

(10) Quality XLR cables are also relatively cheap compared to
so-called high quality but poorer performing RCA-based interconnects.

What do you suggest instead? I suppose toslink, or phono used
digitally?

There's a digital standard that uses XLR plugs. It's called AES/EBU.

Fun disadvantages of XLR in the domestic setting :

(1) When you trip over a lead the equipment comes too.

Install it properly! If nothing else, Velcro it down.

;-)

(2) You need serious back panel real-estate for home cinema.

Use separate components. Who needs receivers anyway?

;-)

(3) When plugging blind you need to align it.

Nothing that any sucessful married man doesn't already know how to do.

;-)

Another advantage of XLR (leads):

(1) You can daisychain 'em easily

:-)

Not a joke, except that one of our RAO audio eggsperts just had to have this
pointed out to him in another forum.