Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard
RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for
the earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My
question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual
also says) then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater
than the source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8
ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Thanks

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Serge Auckland wrote:

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard
RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for
the earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My
question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual
also says) then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater
than the source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8
ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Damping possibly. As in avoiding resonances.

Graham

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...


albeit with a bit more noise than for
the earlier MM cartridge,
Sumiko is a perfectionist and that is why.
--
John the West Ham fan

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge (Sumiko
Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of 40-100
ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard RIAA
preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for the
earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My
question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual
also says) then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater
than the source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8
ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Any changes would depend on details you have not given (and presumably are
unknown to you).

A lower amplifier input impedance might also provide lower noise.

Since no source will be an ideal 'voltage source' a lower load may also
change the frequency response, or distortion, or some other parameter.
Perhaps even alter the compliance to a small extent.

At some point the coil inductance, etc, may cause a resonance. Probably
well above audio, but might make something like RF pickup more possible in
some circumstances.

But none of the above may apply in your specific case.

Given the high output you could check by simply putting 100 Ohm shunts
across the amp inputs and see if this has any noticable effect.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB or
so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to skew the
frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm values smoothes
this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6 KHz to 8 KHz region.
The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most extended frequency response
with neither of these two peaks being audible.

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I was
surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better than all
lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N ratio is
higher with the higher loading.




"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard
RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for the
earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My question
is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual also says)
then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater than the
source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8 ohms. The
sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Thanks

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Dish Guy
wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB
or so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to
skew the frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm
values smoothes this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6
KHz to 8 KHz region. The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most
extended frequency response with neither of these two peaks being
audible.

Is the above based on measurements? If so, I'd be interested to see the
details. Can you also say what level of cable/amp capacitance was used?

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.

I am not sure that a higher load impedance will mean a better SNR. This
will depend on the details of the noise generation mechanisms involved as
well as the source details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB or
so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to skew the
frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm values smoothes
this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6 KHz to 8 KHz region.
The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most extended frequency response
with neither of these two peaks being audible.

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I was
surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better than all
lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N ratio is
higher with the higher loading.



Out of interest, what arm are you using? The 103 is better matched to
higher mass arms, being a lot lower compliance than most of todays
cartridges. It often gives better results with extra mass being added at
the headshell (6gm or so).

This may have contributed more the the bass problem than the loading.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Serge Auckland wrote:
I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard
RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for
the earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My
question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual
also says) then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater
than the source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8
ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Thanks


I have a cartridge that is also recomended to be loaded at 100 ohms. My
preamp allows for variable loading. At 47k it sounds more lively but
that livelyness seems to be a form of glare. Some people like this. I
don't.


Scott

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article ,
Dish Guy wrote:
I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.

What's the recommended load for the cart?

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Rega Planar 3 turntable, (new) RB-300 arm and Denon 103s cartridge.


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dish Guy wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB
or so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to
skew the frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm
values smoothes this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6 KHz
to 8 KHz region. The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most
extended frequency response with neither of these two peaks being
audible.

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.



Out of interest, what arm are you using? The 103 is better matched to
higher mass arms, being a lot lower compliance than most of todays
cartridges. It often gives better results with extra mass being added at
the headshell (6gm or so).

This may have contributed more the the bass problem than the loading.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Recommended loading is 100 ohms.


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dish Guy wrote:
I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.

What's the recommended load for the cart?

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB or
so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to skew the
frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm values smoothes
this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6 KHz to 8 KHz region.
The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most extended frequency response
with neither of these two peaks being audible.

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I was
surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better than all
lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N ratio is
higher with the higher loading.

Some years ago when Koetsu cartridges were widely thought to be the best
(maybe still are), there were suggestions in one or more of the comics
that they sounded better using 47k than the normal few hundred ohms. One
writer, (can't remember who) said he thought all MC cartridges sounded
better with a 47k load.

Unfortunately, and as is the wont of magazines, he never gave any reason
for his preference, nor backed it with any factual information. Could he
have been right?

S.






"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard
RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for the
earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My question
is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual also says)
then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater than the
source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8 ohms. The
sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Thanks

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge (Sumiko
Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of 40-100
ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my standard RIAA
preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more noise than for the
earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly acceptable. My
question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources (and Sumiko's manual
also says) then why should the load matter once it is, say, 10x greater
than the source impedance of the generator, which in my case is 5.8
ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I would like to know what
change/improvement I should expect from a lower impedance load.

Any changes would depend on details you have not given (and presumably are
unknown to you).

A lower amplifier input impedance might also provide lower noise.

As the amplifier is seeing 5.8 ohms, would a lower inpedance make any
difference to the noise?


Since no source will be an ideal 'voltage source' a lower load may also
change the frequency response, or distortion, or some other parameter.
Perhaps even alter the compliance to a small extent.

At some point the coil inductance, etc, may cause a resonance. Probably
well above audio, but might make something like RF pickup more possible in
some circumstances.

But none of the above may apply in your specific case.

I am sure you are right that lowering the load impedance will make a
difference. My question was about what sort of difference, and would I
be able to hear it - many things make measurable differences, but are
they audible......

Given the high output you could check by simply putting 100 Ohm shunts
across the amp inputs and see if this has any noticable effect.

Slainte,

Jim


Yes, that's my next experiment. I'll start with 1k and work my way down,
and see what (if anything) I notice.

Thanks

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

I also have a Sumiko MC (albeit high-output). And I use the
Pro-Ject Tube Box. ISTR that it has a DIP switch array that
allows you to set the loading. I just left it on the setting
matching the recommended load for the cartridge. Maybe I should
have a play!

But not now: Doctor Who "The Impossible Planet" is on. That's the
first half of the double-episode with the Ood. The best Doctor Who
recently by quite a way!


"DON'T TURN AROUND. IF YOU LOOK AT ME, YOU WILL DIE."


Martin - AND YOU WILL WORSHIP HIM.
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

A lower amplifier input impedance might also provide lower noise.

No. The source impedance sorts that out regardless.

At some point the coil inductance, etc, may cause a resonance. Probably
well above audio, but might make something like RF pickup more possible in
some circumstances.

It's *mechanical* resonance that's the issue ! A low load resistance can damp
that. The same happens with some well-known microphones btw.

Graham

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

wrote:

I have a cartridge that is also recomended to be loaded at 100 ohms. My
preamp allows for variable loading. At 47k it sounds more lively but
that livelyness seems to be a form of glare. Some people like this. I
don't.

Entirely unsurprising given that the source Z is inductive.

Graham

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Serge
Auckland wrote:

I recently acquired a low output (0.2mV) moving coil cartridge
(Sumiko Talisman B), for which the manufacturers' recommend a load of
40-100 ohms. I am currently running it into a load of 47k as my
standard RIAA preamp has sufficient gain, albeit with a bit more
noise than for the earlier MM cartridge, but nevertheless, perfectly
acceptable. My question is:- as MC cartridges are voltage sources
(and Sumiko's manual also says) then why should the load matter once
it is, say, 10x greater than the source impedance of the generator,
which in my case is 5.8 ohms. The sound I'm getting seems fine, so I
would like to know what change/improvement I should expect from a
lower impedance load.

Any changes would depend on details you have not given (and presumably
are unknown to you).

A lower amplifier input impedance might also provide lower noise.

As the amplifier is seeing 5.8 ohms, would a lower inpedance make any
difference to the noise?

Probably not - depending on the reliability of the assumptions being made.

Couple of points as examples:

Firstly, is the source impedance genuinely '5.8 Ohms'? If the coils have an
inductance which is high enough it might cause the source impedance to be
somewhat larger than this value across some parts of the audio band.

Secondly, if the user was to employ an amp designed with a low input
impedance (as distinct from simply fitting shunt resistances to an amp with
an inherent high input impedance) then they might get a lower noise level,
and improved SNR.

e.g. compare a low-noise FET input amp with an inherently high input
impedance with something like a common-base bipolar amp. Their en/in ratios
will probably be very different.

If the source impedance is low, and resistive, then I wonder why changes in
occur the frequency response as the loading is altered... If this is due to
the effect upon generator 'compliance' then it seems efficiently coupled.




Since no source will be an ideal 'voltage source' a lower load may
also change the frequency response, or distortion, or some other
parameter. Perhaps even alter the compliance to a small extent.

At some point the coil inductance, etc, may cause a resonance.
Probably well above audio, but might make something like RF pickup
more possible in some circumstances.

But none of the above may apply in your specific case.

I am sure you are right that lowering the load impedance will make a
difference. My question was about what sort of difference, and would I
be able to hear it - many things make measurable differences, but are
they audible......

The difficulty is that the question is unanswerable without more
information. :-)

From what you have reported thus far, I suspect that any differences will
be between 'minor' and 'inaudible'.... but you may be able to correct this
in the light of experiment. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Eeyore
wrote:


Jim Lesurf wrote:

A lower amplifier input impedance might also provide lower noise.

No. The source impedance sorts that out regardless.

No, because a different amplifier design may have quite different noise
characteristics.

In practice, of course, the dominant noise source may be coming from the
actual LP surface. However if we ignore this, then the active devices in
the amp will probably be producing a larger noise contribution than the
thermal noise in the coil. There might also be a contribution from 'excess
noise' in the resistors in the amp which are passing bias currents.

The key point is that an amp designed to work optimally with a low input
resistance and source resistance will be different to one optimised for
higher impedances. The values for en and in will almost certainly be
different if the designer knows his job.

At some point the coil inductance, etc, may cause a resonance.
Probably well above audio, but might make something like RF pickup
more possible in some circumstances.

It's *mechanical* resonance that's the issue ! A low load resistance can
damp that. The same happens with some well-known microphones btw.

Being able to affect the mechanical resonances by altering the load on the
generator implies a reasonably high coupling (generator) efficiency. I
did wonder if this might be a factor, but don't know the specifics for
MC cartridges like the one Serge is using. Does that not imply that a low
load resistance will also cause the stylus forces to rise? i.e. to risk
an increase in record wear and/or distortion due to elastic deformations?
If so, presumably a higher load resistance might reduce the distortion.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Recommended loading is 100 ohms.


Not so sure about that, the sheet that comes with the cart show the FR
plot with a 1k loading.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Rega Planar 3 turntable, (new) RB-300 arm and Denon 103s cartridge.


In my (limited) experence, the Rega is a very poor match for the Denon.
It works much better with loose bearing arms like the SME, and its at
its best in a unipivot.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

No, my observations are purely subjective. I don't have a good capacitance
meter on hand at the moment but I would guesstimate that between the arm
cabling and preamp input, the capacitance would be about 200 pF.



"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dish Guy
wrote:
Does it matter? Probably not.

I use a Denon 103s MC cartridge (0.385mV) and after several months of
testing/listening recently I finally settled on 47K ohms as its best
termination resistance.

I tried several values, 40, 100, 200, 1000, 2000 ohms and 47K ohms. The
lower values displayed a slight resonance in the upper bass, about 1 dB
or so somewhere around the 80-100 Hz I would estimate, just enough to
skew the frequency balance for the male voice. The 1000 and 2000 ohm
values smoothes this low freq rise but then produced a peak in the 6
KHz to 8 KHz region. The 47K resistance offers the smoothest and most
extended frequency response with neither of these two peaks being
audible.

Is the above based on measurements? If so, I'd be interested to see the
details. Can you also say what level of cable/amp capacitance was used?

I only tried the 47K loading out of frustration with the lower settings.
All seemed to introduce something not quite right. I must admit that I
was surprised that 47K loading sounded as good as it did -- and better
than all lower impedances as well. As an added bonus (I guess) the S/N
ratio is higher with the higher loading.

I am not sure that a higher load impedance will mean a better SNR. This
will depend on the details of the noise generation mechanisms involved as
well as the source details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

I replaced my Mayware Formula 4 (unipivot) with the RB-300 earlier this
year.

Believe me, the Denon sounds MUCH better in the Rega arm.


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk...
Dish Guy wrote:
Rega Planar 3 turntable, (new) RB-300 arm and Denon 103s cartridge.


In my (limited) experence, the Rega is a very poor match for the Denon. It
works much better with loose bearing arms like the SME, and its at its
best in a unipivot.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is either
the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I also have) or
100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk...
Dish Guy wrote:
Recommended loading is 100 ohms.


Not so sure about that, the sheet that comes with the cart show the FR
plot with a 1k loading.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is either
the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I also have) or
100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

YMMV.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Since arms, cabling, etc. are unlikely to match in different setups all a
person can do is try various values for cartridge loadings and pick which is
most accurate for their particular system. Mine is as stated.

Yes, YMMV.

Morris


"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only one
site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the 103
it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the tip, and
a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

YMMV.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:
Dish Guy wrote:
Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.


I am wondering what "40 Ohm input" may mean in this context as the actual
load it presents will depend on how the transformer secondary is
terminated. Perhaps it just means "use this input for our 40 Ohm
cartridges"?

Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.

The references I have agree with the above w.r.t source resistance. This
month's Hi Fi World actually compares two versions of the Denon 103 and
quotes 40 Ohms as the source resistance. As does a 1980 'Hi Fi choice'
collection. Hi Fi News from 1980 give a value of 33 Ohms for another
version of the 103.

FWIW I did some quick calculations last night as I was curious about this.
If the results are correct then the stylus force required to deliver 0.5mV
into a 50R - 100R load is 3-4 orders of magnitude smaller than the force
required by a compliance of 10 cu at 1 kHz. This makes me doubtful that
electrical loading has much effect on the mechanical resonances. It may be
that the calculation was in error, though, as it was 'back of a scruffy
envelope' format. :-)

However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103 actually
has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in loading may alter
the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't clear to me why
changing the load would have much effect on the frequency response. So far
as I can see, it will essentially just alter the signal level and SNR.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote:

Dish Guy wrote:

Yes, so does mine.

Notwithstanding that, the recommended impedance for the Denon 103s is
either the 40 ohm input of Denon's AU-320 stepup transformer (which I
also have) or 100 ohms if used directly into a preamp.



I am wondering what "40 Ohm input" may mean in this context as the actual
load it presents will depend on how the transformer secondary is
terminated. Perhaps it just means "use this input for our 40 Ohm
cartridges"?

I guess it depends on how its expected to be used. I have found that
several of the commerical stepup TX's are built with fixed loading
resistors, so altering the load presented buy the phono stage may have
little effect.



Ok, but the specs I can find, and my (and several others) experence say
the source inductance is 40R, and the recommended load is 100R (only
one site I found says 100R). The 103r is happier at 100R, but I find the
103 it sounds best in a hadcock unipivot, with 6gm extra mass at the
tip, and a effective load of somewhere like 250R.


The references I have agree with the above w.r.t source resistance. This
month's Hi Fi World actually compares two versions of the Denon 103 and
quotes 40 Ohms as the source resistance. As does a 1980 'Hi Fi choice'
collection. Hi Fi News from 1980 give a value of 33 Ohms for another
version of the 103.


Yes, the author of the HFW article is one of the people I have compaired
results with with respect to the 103.

FWIW I did some quick calculations last night as I was curious about this.
If the results are correct then the stylus force required to deliver 0.5mV
into a 50R - 100R load is 3-4 orders of magnitude smaller than the force
required by a compliance of 10 cu at 1 kHz. This makes me doubtful that
electrical loading has much effect on the mechanical resonances. It may be
that the calculation was in error, though, as it was 'back of a scruffy
envelope' format. :-)

However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103 actually
has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in loading may alter
the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't clear to me why
changing the load would have much effect on the frequency response. So far
as I can see, it will essentially just alter the signal level and SNR.


I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know. I do know that
changing the load from 100R to 470R does seem to provide a additional
couple of dB of signal.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

In article , Nick
Gorham
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:


However 0.5 mV for 5cm/s and 40 Ohms make me wonder if the 103
actually has a significant series inductance. If so, changes in
loading may alter the frequency response due to this. If not, it isn't
clear to me why changing the load would have much effect on the
frequency response. So far as I can see, it will essentially just
alter the signal level and SNR.


I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...

I do know that changing the load from 100R to 470R does seem to provide
a additional couple of dB of signal.

....although a change in level might be percieved as altering the overall
tonal balance in some way.

Alternatively, if the actual coils are 'sum and difference' then changing
the loading might alter the crosstalk, which might sound like an audible
difference of some other kind. Never seen anyone test for this.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:



I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.


Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...



So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:



I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.


Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...



So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

No, I don't have figures - I'll see what I can find. All I've given
you is hearsay, but if I can find some figures I'll do the maths and
figure out what loading changes really do.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.
Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.
I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d

Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

No, I don't have figures - I'll see what I can find. All I've given
you is hearsay, but if I can find some figures I'll do the maths and
figure out what loading changes really do.

d

Thanks, that would be useful.

S.

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:51:45 +0100, Serge Auckland
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:18:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

I am not convinced that the loading makes a major change in frequency
response. If I have a chance, I will see if its measurable using the kit
I have. But I suspect it may not be. The subject difference seems to me
to be more a case of improved bass resolution, and top end extension,
but as to how that relates to a FR display I don't know.

Unless it does something like alter the response I am unclear why it would
do that...


So am I, I am just reporting subjective information.

I would think it would be possibe to consider a situation where
different loading alters the generation of distortion products and so
altered the bass. The top end could be the result in changes in
response. I have found that RIAA step changes (ie 1dB over a range of
frequency, for example) can have far more effect on the way things sound
than a simple 1dB change in volumn.

I think the mechanical sources of distortion in the cartridge are
overwhelmingly greater than any electrical ones that could be provoked
by loading change.

The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive and is
greatly affected by its loading, mostly the total cable capacitance,
of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.

d


Don,

Do you have figures for the inductance of a typical low-output MC
cartridge. As far as I know, the coils are small, with very few turns,
so I would have thought the inductance would be small. I don't have an
inductance bridge to make the measurments. Compared with an MM
cartridge who's coils are larger and have many hundreds (thousands?) of
turns, I would have expected that the inductance of an MC would be
small. My Goldring 1042 has a coil inductance of 570mH and a dc
restistance of 660 ohms.

S.

I've found some numbers (70 microhenries and 12 ohms) for a cartridge,
and simulated what happens into 20 ohms and 47k, with 140pF of lead
capacitance. What happens is a 4dB difference in overall level and
only about 0.5dB of change frequency response over the audio range. So
I was talking ********. My apologies.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

"Don Pearce = ****ING Pommy MORON "


The level question though is much more interesting. You can make small
changes to level that are too tiny to be identified as such - but they
do have the subjective effect of the louder one being perceived as
somehow clearer or brighter.

And of course a moving coil cartridge is highly inductive


** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Moving magnet ( MM ) types are highly inductive.

MC types have SFA inductance.


and is
greatly affected by its loading,


** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




mostly the total cable capacitance,



** Absolute ******** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




of course, but also to a degree by the resistance, which tends to
brighten up the top end if it is higher than specified.


Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com



** DO NOT GO ANYWHERE NEAR THIS 100 % DEMENTED BLOODY IDIOT !!!!!!!!!!


NOT EVEN IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT !!!!





........ Phil

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg

That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg


That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.

Remember the difference in gain will also be affected by the losses in
the stepup TX in thi scase.

--
Nick

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:09:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 15:00:26 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote:


Ok, just had a look,

Dennon 103, into Lundahl stepup at 1:20 (so its possible the change is
as much down the the TX's as the cart).

This is pink noise, with the 230R loading I use.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-250R.jpg

And this is the same, with one chan down to 37R loading.

http://www.lurcher.org/nick/audio/D103-37R.jpg


That pretty much bears out what I found, although it points to your
cart having rather more DC resistance than the one I modelled. Any
thoughts on what might be causing all that upper-mid nastiness on one
channel? That is going to be as audible as hell.

d


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.


Not sure it would account for all of that. It is all on one channel -
how convinced are you of the arm's bias setting?

Remember the difference in gain will also be affected by the losses in
the stepup TX in thi scase.

True, but they will be tiny in comparison to the7-odd dB we are seeing
from the resistive potential divider. What is the cartridge? It would
be interesting to model the right parameters and see how close it
comes.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Cartridge loading - does it matter?
 

Don Pearce wrote:


A very old and well used test record was my thinking.



Not sure it would account for all of that. It is all on one channel -
how convinced are you of the arm's bias setting?

I am not, its on a new (to me) deck, and needs proper setting up. Thats
my job for the weekend.


True, but they will be tiny in comparison to the7-odd dB we are seeing
from the resistive potential divider. What is the cartridge? It would
be interesting to model the right parameters and see how close it
comes.

Its a Denon 301 that started this off.

--
Nick.