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Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote Well, me Cyrus II has no tone controls or rumble filters; about the only thing I can do wrong there is forget to set the Tape Out switch to phono. I like to have Tone controls, but rarely use anything other than a little treble cut on the *noisiest* of records - a Balance control OTOH, is very handy on the *offset* speaker positioning I have on my computer setup and it enables me to put the sound right into/behind the monitor....!! |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:47:38 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Well, me Cyrus II has no tone controls or rumble filters; about the only thing I can do wrong there is forget to set the Tape Out switch to phono. I like to have Tone controls, but rarely use anything other than a little treble cut on the *noisiest* of records - a Balance control OTOH, is very handy on the *offset* speaker positioning I have on my computer setup and it enables me to put the sound right into/behind the monitor....!! Now I look at it, The Cyrus has a balance control. It is a concentric, hidden behind the volume control - never noticed it before. I don't play noisy records - I have a few but they are long since copied to hard drive and the noises taken care of. I know I could download clean copies, but somehow they wouldn't be *my* recordings and that wouldn't be the same. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:25:17 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote:
In message , Don Pearce writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! The numbers don't support you here. The V15-3 had an inductance of 500mH, and the V15-5 was much higher at 720mH. That would make the 5 far more sensitive to things capacitive than the other. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:55:48 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. That isn't channel balance (they were both the same). The red trace is just some pink noise I made with Audition's generator function for comparison. And my mathematical ramblings suggest that capacitive loading changes don't have that kind of effect down at a few kHz - they are strictly a top end phenomenon. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. I've also done the "unpink filter" thing using the FFT filter. Problem is it only works down to about 50Hz, so you see a lift below that. My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:55:48 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. That isn't channel balance (they were both the same). The red trace is just some pink noise I made with Audition's generator function for comparison. Good. And my mathematical ramblings suggest that capacitive loading changes don't have that kind of effect down at a few kHz - they are strictly a top end phenomenon. It's been a while for me and V15s, but my recollection is that capacitive loading has effects down to surprisnigly low frequencies. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. I've also done the "unpink filter" thing using the FFT filter. Problem is it only works down to about 50Hz, so you see a lift below that. IME, using larger FFTs helps that. However, the best I can do still shows -2 dB loss below 40 Hz on generated data. My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. You mean stretch the window after you capture it? |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:57:17 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. You mean stretch the window after you capture it? Yes, but the best you can do is change 12dB steps to 6dB. Not great, but better than nothing. Personally I would rather have 10 and 5dB - makes the counting much easier. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:25:17 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote: snip. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! The numbers don't support you here. The V15-3 had an inductance of 500mH, and the V15-5 was much higher at 720mH. That would make the 5 far more sensitive to things capacitive than the other. From the Shure website..... V15-V Inductance 330mH DC resistance 815 Ohms V15-3 Inductance 500mH DC resistance 1350 Ohms. With regards to Arny's post, the V15-3's response would be affected from about 1kHz upwards if loaded with only half it's required capacitance. The response would droop from 1kHz then rise to a peak at around 8 to 10kHz, then drop off again as it approached 20Khz. -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:39:02 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. Interesting. And apropos of nothing at all, here is a nice little melody from Senor Coconut And His Orchestra: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Melody.mp3 - A fairly new (2006) release on 12 inch 45, just to show where vinyl is these days in a *dynamic* sense and what it sounds like on a 30 quid deck with a 300 quid cart....!! Enjoy! :-) That doesn't sound bad (had a bit of trouble opening the file though - had to download it a second time). You have the old clipping problem well licked too! d I've had a bash he http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/audiosamples My record doesn't have the pink noise track. It looks mightily weird to me! Rob |
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