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Cartridge response - pink noise test
Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink
noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. Interesting. And apropos of nothing at all, here is a nice little melody from Senor Coconut And His Orchestra: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Melody.mp3 - A fairly new (2006) release on 12 inch 45, just to show where vinyl is these days in a *dynamic* sense and what it sounds like on a 30 quid deck with a 300 quid cart....!! Enjoy! :-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:34:24 +0100, Rob
wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? Time isn't represented on the graph. The whole thing is about 20 seconds of pink noise, converted by FFT to a dB vs frequency graph. I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? Pink noise isn't flat for an FFT. It drops as you go up by 3dB per octave, or 10dB per decade. If you put a ruler along the average of the graph, you can see the deviations above and below the straight line. If you have another look, I've drawn in a line that represents what a flat response should be. I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? The line rises above the mean diagonal before it drops again - in fact it drops back to just below the wanted line at 20kHz. I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob Much easier when you know what is happening. To be technical, with pink noise you have equal power per relative bandwidth - so as you go up in frequency the power gets more spread out, and there is less of it in each finite frequency bin that the FFT produces. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:39:02 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. Interesting. And apropos of nothing at all, here is a nice little melody from Senor Coconut And His Orchestra: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Melody.mp3 - A fairly new (2006) release on 12 inch 45, just to show where vinyl is these days in a *dynamic* sense and what it sounds like on a 30 quid deck with a 300 quid cart....!! Enjoy! :-) That doesn't sound bad (had a bit of trouble opening the file though - had to download it a second time). You have the old clipping problem well licked too! d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:34:24 +0100, Rob wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? Time isn't represented on the graph. The whole thing is about 20 seconds of pink noise, converted by FFT to a dB vs frequency graph. I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? Pink noise isn't flat for an FFT. It drops as you go up by 3dB per octave, or 10dB per decade. If you put a ruler along the average of the graph, you can see the deviations above and below the straight line. If you have another look, I've drawn in a line that represents what a flat response should be. I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? The line rises above the mean diagonal before it drops again - in fact it drops back to just below the wanted line at 20kHz. I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob Much easier when you know what is happening. To be technical, with pink noise you have equal power per relative bandwidth - so as you go up in frequency the power gets more spread out, and there is less of it in each finite frequency bin that the FFT produces. Many thanks - appreciated. Rob |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote That doesn't sound bad (had a bit of trouble opening the file though - had to download it a second time). You have the old clipping problem well licked too! Actually, an admission - that was straight into the computer without changing anything at all. As I have said on a number of earlier occasions, the recording 'sliders' are pretty much at 0.5 (out of 10) as it is!! (It's pretty punchy over the speakers, I hafta say!! :-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Rob" wrote in message ... Don Pearce wrote: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:34:24 +0100, Rob wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? Time isn't represented on the graph. The whole thing is about 20 seconds of pink noise, converted by FFT to a dB vs frequency graph. I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? Pink noise isn't flat for an FFT. It drops as you go up by 3dB per octave, or 10dB per decade. If you put a ruler along the average of the graph, you can see the deviations above and below the straight line. If you have another look, I've drawn in a line that represents what a flat response should be. I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? The line rises above the mean diagonal before it drops again - in fact it drops back to just below the wanted line at 20kHz. I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob Much easier when you know what is happening. To be technical, with pink noise you have equal power per relative bandwidth - so as you go up in frequency the power gets more spread out, and there is less of it in each finite frequency bin that the FFT produces. Many thanks - appreciated. Same here, but not fully *understood* yet!! :-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Keith G wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message ... Don Pearce wrote: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:34:24 +0100, Rob wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? Time isn't represented on the graph. The whole thing is about 20 seconds of pink noise, converted by FFT to a dB vs frequency graph. I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? Pink noise isn't flat for an FFT. It drops as you go up by 3dB per octave, or 10dB per decade. If you put a ruler along the average of the graph, you can see the deviations above and below the straight line. If you have another look, I've drawn in a line that represents what a flat response should be. I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? The line rises above the mean diagonal before it drops again - in fact it drops back to just below the wanted line at 20kHz. I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob Much easier when you know what is happening. To be technical, with pink noise you have equal power per relative bandwidth - so as you go up in frequency the power gets more spread out, and there is less of it in each finite frequency bin that the FFT produces. Many thanks - appreciated. Same here, but not fully *understood* yet!! :-) Ditto - inching closer :-) And I got told off today for using too many flippin' TLAs! :-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:10:55 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Rob" wrote in message ... Don Pearce wrote: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:34:24 +0100, Rob wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge V.nice indeed. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d I'm quite used to being alone on this, but could you explain a couple of things please: How is time represented on the graph? Time isn't represented on the graph. The whole thing is about 20 seconds of pink noise, converted by FFT to a dB vs frequency graph. I look at the graph and I can't see the things you describe: I'd have expected the db (loudness?!) to remain constant for a flat response (that is, a straight horizontal line)? Pink noise isn't flat for an FFT. It drops as you go up by 3dB per octave, or 10dB per decade. If you put a ruler along the average of the graph, you can see the deviations above and below the straight line. If you have another look, I've drawn in a line that represents what a flat response should be. I wouldn't have commented on the 10k blip, but consider the 10-20k range to roll off? The line rises above the mean diagonal before it drops again - in fact it drops back to just below the wanted line at 20kHz. I've often seen these things in magazines and frankly they've always been a mystery! And, clearly not ashamed of public disclosure here, I tried to 'tune' my system adopting (I think) the same twisted mentality associated with my interpretation of your graph, and it sounded totally bizarre - bass just swamped the entire thing. Thanks, Rob Much easier when you know what is happening. To be technical, with pink noise you have equal power per relative bandwidth - so as you go up in frequency the power gets more spread out, and there is less of it in each finite frequency bin that the FFT produces. Many thanks - appreciated. Same here, but not fully *understood* yet!! :-) OK, let me explain a bit more about pink noise. Suppose we are at a frequency of 1kHz and the noise power contained within 1Hz of bandwidth is a milliwatt; if we now look at 2kHz, that milliwatt of noise is now spread over 2Hz (same percentage bandwidth), so there is only half a milliwatt per 1Hz, likewise up at 4kHz, the milliwatt is spread over 4Hz, so there is a quarter of a milliwatt per Hz. So the result is that for each doubling of frequency the power per Hz drops by a half, or 3dB. If you go up ten times in frequency, the power drops to 1/10th, or by 10dB - hence the description of pink noise as -3dB per octave, or -10dB per decade. Why use pink noise instead of white noise, which would have looked flat? If they had tried that on vinyl the high frequencies would have melted the cutter head. They have to cool them with liquid helium as it is. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d Very nice, it does seem to show a flat response down to what I would have guessed was arm/cartridge resonance frequencies, wich is rather impressive. -- Nick |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:34:07 +0100, Nick Gorham
wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d Very nice, it does seem to show a flat response down to what I would have guessed was arm/cartridge resonance frequencies, wich is rather impressive. Yes there is another test track for resonance, which comes out at 11Hz, which is a pretty much ideal compromise. What this was all about was the top end response of MC cartridges, which I think (from theory) tends to be better controlled than in MM types. I'm hoping that somebody with a MM cart has the wherewithall to replicate this so we can compare. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:10:55 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: snip good explanation Why use pink noise instead of white noise, which would have looked flat? If they had tried that on vinyl the high frequencies would have melted the cutter head. They have to cool them with liquid helium as it is. Ahem! It's just A grade helium gas, not liquid. -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:38:41 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote:
In message , Don Pearce writes On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:10:55 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: snip good explanation Why use pink noise instead of white noise, which would have looked flat? If they had tried that on vinyl the high frequencies would have melted the cutter head. They have to cool them with liquid helium as it is. Ahem! It's just A grade helium gas, not liquid. I thought helium gas was only used on Pinky and Perky records. But there we go, gas it is - my memory is playing games with me. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:38:41 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote: In message , Don Pearce writes On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:10:55 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: snip good explanation Why use pink noise instead of white noise, which would have looked flat? If they had tried that on vinyl the high frequencies would have melted the cutter head. They have to cool them with liquid helium as it is. Ahem! It's just A grade helium gas, not liquid. I thought helium gas was only used on Pinky and Perky records. But there we go, gas it is - my memory is playing games with me. Me, waste the expensive cutting helium, to talk like a choir boy again? Never! ;) -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:34:07 +0100, Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d Very nice, it does seem to show a flat response down to what I would have guessed was arm/cartridge resonance frequencies, wich is rather impressive. Yes there is another test track for resonance, which comes out at 11Hz, which is a pretty much ideal compromise. What this was all about was the top end response of MC cartridges, which I think (from theory) tends to be better controlled than in MM types. I'm hoping that somebody with a MM cart has the wherewithall to replicate this so we can compare. What do you want done? I've got a number of MC and MM carts on headshells so can swap fairly quickly - as well as the HFS69 and HFS75 test records with various bands on them including pink noise or white noise with 'constant energy per Hz'....?? (Would that give you a *level* flat line?) I could send you a set of wavs to mess with if you let me know what you need...?? |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:57:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:34:07 +0100, Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d Very nice, it does seem to show a flat response down to what I would have guessed was arm/cartridge resonance frequencies, wich is rather impressive. Yes there is another test track for resonance, which comes out at 11Hz, which is a pretty much ideal compromise. What this was all about was the top end response of MC cartridges, which I think (from theory) tends to be better controlled than in MM types. I'm hoping that somebody with a MM cart has the wherewithall to replicate this so we can compare. What do you want done? I've got a number of MC and MM carts on headshells so can swap fairly quickly - as well as the HFS69 and HFS75 test records with various bands on them including pink noise or white noise with 'constant energy per Hz'....?? (Would that give you a *level* flat line?) You've got it! I could send you a set of wavs to mess with if you let me know what you need...?? a wav of the pink noise would be the thing. Only need about ten seconds of it, so no need to make it huge. The V15 would be a good place to start - it being a kind of reference to a lot of people.. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:57:09 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:34:07 +0100, Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. d Very nice, it does seem to show a flat response down to what I would have guessed was arm/cartridge resonance frequencies, wich is rather impressive. Yes there is another test track for resonance, which comes out at 11Hz, which is a pretty much ideal compromise. What this was all about was the top end response of MC cartridges, which I think (from theory) tends to be better controlled than in MM types. I'm hoping that somebody with a MM cart has the wherewithall to replicate this so we can compare. What do you want done? I've got a number of MC and MM carts on headshells so can swap fairly quickly - as well as the HFS69 and HFS75 test records with various bands on them including pink noise or white noise with 'constant energy per Hz'....?? (Would that give you a *level* flat line?) I could send you a set of wavs to mess with if you let me know what you need...?? Forgot to add - for this test it is vital that there is no clipping - that would screw the measurement utterly. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote Forgot to add - for this test it is vital that there is no clipping - that would screw the measurement utterly. The clip is on its way to you direct. |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:36:37 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Forgot to add - for this test it is vital that there is no clipping - that would screw the measurement utterly. The clip is on its way to you direct. Courtesy of Keith we now have a pink noise track of a Shure V15/5. It has a smooth if slightly depressed top end, rather wavy midrange and rolled off bass. Interesting! Again I have added the "nominally flat" line for comparison - I've tried to put it in a sort of average position. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink.gif d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) ** What the heck is this REALLY a test of ?? Certainly NOT the PU cartridge's response. That test record is a huge unknown. Is not a RIAA pre-amp involved too ?? More room for error than you can poke a stick at. ......... Phil |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:41:58 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:36:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Forgot to add - for this test it is vital that there is no clipping - that would screw the measurement utterly. The clip is on its way to you direct. Courtesy of Keith we now have a pink noise track of a Shure V15/5. It has a smooth if slightly depressed top end, rather wavy midrange and rolled off bass. Interesting! Again I have added the "nominally flat" line for comparison - I've tried to put it in a sort of average position. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink.gif d Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. -- Nick |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. Ah..... http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/oops.jpg Second clip is on its way to you as I type - rumble filter *out* this time!! :-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In article ,
Keith G wrote: And apropos of nothing at all, here is a nice little melody from Senor Coconut And His Orchestra: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Melody.mp3 - A fairly new (2006) release on 12 inch 45, just to show where vinyl is these days in a *dynamic* sense and what it sounds like on a 30 quid deck with a 300 quid cart....!! Enjoy! :-) Dynamic sense? It's pretty well all electronic samples with the dynamics of a wet sponge. And yes - there's no mistaking vinyl. ;-) -- *Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:17:38 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com Should have added - the red trace is a sample of pink noise generated in Audition for comparison. The blue is the cartridge. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. Not on the amp - the tone controls are/were all set 'flat' - although, I would mention the amp is no spring chicken, I believe if first belonged to Oliver Cromwell when it was new....??? :-) http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif (I'm ruling out nothing atm - the pickle I got into with filters, bias settings, record levels and playing/recording different records at different speeds and forgetting to reset the speed afterwards &c....!! ;-) |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:22:35 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. Not on the amp - the tone controls are/were all set 'flat' - although, I would mention the amp is no spring chicken, I believe if first belonged to Oliver Cromwell when it was new....??? :-) No, I don't think it actually is the tone control - you can see it was set to flat, and there isn't a failure mode that I know of that would bugger both channels simultaneously by the same amount. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif (I'm ruling out nothing atm - the pickle I got into with filters, bias settings, record levels and playing/recording different records at different speeds and forgetting to reset the speed afterwards &c....!! ;-) Well, me Cyrus II has no tone controls or rumble filters; about the only thing I can do wrong there is forget to set the Tape Out switch to phono. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote Well, me Cyrus II has no tone controls or rumble filters; about the only thing I can do wrong there is forget to set the Tape Out switch to phono. I like to have Tone controls, but rarely use anything other than a little treble cut on the *noisiest* of records - a Balance control OTOH, is very handy on the *offset* speaker positioning I have on my computer setup and it enables me to put the sound right into/behind the monitor....!! |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:47:38 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Well, me Cyrus II has no tone controls or rumble filters; about the only thing I can do wrong there is forget to set the Tape Out switch to phono. I like to have Tone controls, but rarely use anything other than a little treble cut on the *noisiest* of records - a Balance control OTOH, is very handy on the *offset* speaker positioning I have on my computer setup and it enables me to put the sound right into/behind the monitor....!! Now I look at it, The Cyrus has a balance control. It is a concentric, hidden behind the volume control - never noticed it before. I don't play noisy records - I have a few but they are long since copied to hard drive and the noises taken care of. I know I could download clean copies, but somehow they wouldn't be *my* recordings and that wouldn't be the same. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:25:17 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote:
In message , Don Pearce writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:37 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote Actually, the rolled-off bass may be to do with the amplifier. Many phono stages incorporate a high-pass filter to remove subsonic bass. This can help power handling by preventing the speakers from flapping with unheard sounds. 'E's not daft that Don....!! ;-) d Which phono was that Keith, I must admit, that curve looks very like the spice model I have for the WAD phono. That's the little Pioneer SA-510's own onboard (SS) phono stage - my 'computer setup'..!! I must get a new test disk, I have found traces I did several years ago, with different arm/cartridge/deck and phono stage that still shows the HF inbalance that the response I posted shows. The HFS75 disk I have is the most *offcentre* pressing I have ever seen and thus came to me virtually unused!! The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! The numbers don't support you here. The V15-3 had an inductance of 500mH, and the V15-5 was much higher at 720mH. That would make the 5 far more sensitive to things capacitive than the other. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:55:48 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. That isn't channel balance (they were both the same). The red trace is just some pink noise I made with Audition's generator function for comparison. And my mathematical ramblings suggest that capacitive loading changes don't have that kind of effect down at a few kHz - they are strictly a top end phenomenon. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. I've also done the "unpink filter" thing using the FFT filter. Problem is it only works down to about 50Hz, so you see a lift below that. My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:55:48 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message The latest V15 plot is here now, with the rumble filter gone. It has flattened out all the lower mid bounciness, although there is still evidence of a low end cutoff - just not at frequencies anyone is going to worry about. The top end is interesting - it has grown a peak which I think I can explain. I believe that removing the rumble filter has changed the capacitive loading on the cartridge considerably, and what we are seeing is what I predicted from my maths - extreme sensitivity of the top end to resonance from capacitive loading. I produced plots that looked exactly like this in my musings. This is all very interesting. The sensitivity of V15s to capacitive loading is well-known. A lot of the lore about the poor SQ of V15s probably comes from people who don't optimize its capacitive loading. The general dropoff above 1kHz looks almost like a mis-set tone control. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Channel balance above 2K is a bit strange. You can often fix that with different caps on each channel. A kluge perhaps, but there's a lot good to say for flat FR. That isn't channel balance (they were both the same). The red trace is just some pink noise I made with Audition's generator function for comparison. Good. And my mathematical ramblings suggest that capacitive loading changes don't have that kind of effect down at a few kHz - they are strictly a top end phenomenon. It's been a while for me and V15s, but my recollection is that capacitive loading has effects down to surprisnigly low frequencies. When I use pink noise to display FR with CEP/Audition, I often pre-process the data with an "unpink" filter implemented with the FFT filter, so that flat response displays as a horizontal line. Depending on what release of CEP/Audition you are using, you can also expand the vertical (dB) scale. I've also done the "unpink filter" thing using the FFT filter. Problem is it only works down to about 50Hz, so you see a lift below that. IME, using larger FFTs helps that. However, the best I can do still shows -2 dB loss below 40 Hz on generated data. My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. You mean stretch the window after you capture it? |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:57:17 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: My version won't allow me to change vertical scale manually - the only way I can change it is to stretch the window. You mean stretch the window after you capture it? Yes, but the best you can do is change 12dB steps to 6dB. Not great, but better than nothing. Personally I would rather have 10 and 5dB - makes the counting much easier. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
In message , Don Pearce
writes On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:25:17 +0100, Kevin Seal wrote: snip. http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/v15pink3.gif Depending on by how much the capacitance has changed, I would say that the V15-5 was the least sensitive of the V15's to capacitance loading. The V15-3 being the most sensitive! The numbers don't support you here. The V15-3 had an inductance of 500mH, and the V15-5 was much higher at 720mH. That would make the 5 far more sensitive to things capacitive than the other. From the Shure website..... V15-V Inductance 330mH DC resistance 815 Ohms V15-3 Inductance 500mH DC resistance 1350 Ohms. With regards to Arny's post, the V15-3's response would be affected from about 1kHz upwards if loaded with only half it's required capacitance. The response would droop from 1kHz then rise to a peak at around 8 to 10kHz, then drop off again as it approached 20Khz. -- Kevin Seal F800ST {kevin at the hyphen seal hyphen house dot freeserve dot co dot uk} |
Cartridge response - pink noise test
Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:39:02 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... Apropos of some stuff we were doing a while ago, here is the pink noise track from th HFN-RR test disk played on my system, which is: Systemdek IV SME 3009ii arm AT-OC9 microline cartridge http://81.174.169.10/odds/dspkr/atoc9.gif It shows an essentially flat response from about 12Hz, with a slight lift at 10kHz, then returning to the proper level above that. The recording is made at 96kHz sampling, and it is clear that the test record cuts off sharply at 20kHz. The cartridge claims to go to 60kHz (ahem!) I've offset the levels of the left and right tracks slightly so they are more visible. Interesting. And apropos of nothing at all, here is a nice little melody from Senor Coconut And His Orchestra: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Melody.mp3 - A fairly new (2006) release on 12 inch 45, just to show where vinyl is these days in a *dynamic* sense and what it sounds like on a 30 quid deck with a 300 quid cart....!! Enjoy! :-) That doesn't sound bad (had a bit of trouble opening the file though - had to download it a second time). You have the old clipping problem well licked too! d I've had a bash he http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/audiosamples My record doesn't have the pink noise track. It looks mightily weird to me! Rob |
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