Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

wrote in message

On 2006-11-02, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Serge Auckland
wrote:
The converse is not true:- An LP cut from a CD will not
sound identical, whatever mastering it has gone
through. There are those who think the LP will sound
better, that's fine as their opinion, but the fact that
it *is* different means that CD is a transparent medium
(what you put in you get out) whilst LP is not.

You can say this 'till you're blue in the face but it
won't make a scrap of difference to vinyl freaks. Vinyl
*adds* realism to anything. Magic it may be but how and
why they don't care.

It is called "habit", "sentimentality", and "ritual".

Also Vinyl allows people to create different sounds on
the fly by moving the record by hand forwards &
backwards; something that cannot be done easily with a
CD.

Actually, that's a solved problem, two different ways.

(1) There are "DJ" CD players that simulate a LP being "scratched".

http://www.djdeals.com/denonDNS1000.htm

(2) There is software that simulates very similar things using a mouse.

http://cdscratch.com/

It is quite possible that the ability to move the
records is a main reason that vinyl is in demand since
the records get "ruined" and the sonic qualities of the
recorded material doesn't matter.

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

Walt wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]

Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.


I beg to differ. I don't think this really demonstrates a comparrison
between the two media at all - if the CD copy sounds just like the
vinyl it just means that the CD is a very good storage media where
you get out (almost) exactly what you put in.

That was, I think, the point !

geoff

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

Nominated for r.a.t ridiculous statement of the year.

"Adds realism"? Do they read this stuff before posting it?
Or are they using a different definintion of "real" than the
rest of us?

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

"Geoff" wrote in message

Walt wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I
can make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't
really tell from the original, other than the
cleaning rituals [ ... ]

Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up
with the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic,
practical comparison method between LP and CD that
I've ever heard of.


I beg to differ. I don't think this really demonstrates
a comparrison between the two media at all - if the CD
copy sounds just like the vinyl it just means that the
CD is a very good storage media where you get out
(almost) exactly what you put in.

That was, I think, the point !

Which begs the questions raised by people who claim that the CD format
somehow inherently makes music unacceptable for the purpose of them
listening for their enjoyment.

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message

Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

Nominated for r.a.t ridiculous statement of the year.

"Adds realism"? Do they read this stuff before posting it?

More to the point, do they think about what it means.

I suspect that the *realism* that is added is akin to air-brushing a la
Vargas in Playboy.

Or are they using a different definintion of "real" than the rest of us?

More real, as in conforming to their preconceived notions of what real
sounds like.

Vinyl does have a sort of mixmaster affect on sound. Because of its inherent
distortion and lack of dynamic range, vinyl mastering and recording tends to
remove a certain amount of natural diversity from recordings.

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.


Hmmm...

That looks like a *twisted* version of my own view that vinyl sounds more
realistic than CD (which it does)....??

Now, I *wonder* who it could be...??

:-)


rest of the silly bluster snipped

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:

Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

Nominated for r.a.t ridiculous statement of the year.

"Adds realism"? Do they read this stuff before posting it?
Or are they using a different definintion of "real" than the
rest of us?

I think that a valid distinction can be made between "accuracy" (a
term I use here to denote an objective relationship between source and
playback) and "realism" (which term I use to indicate a _subjective_
perception).

It's well known, for example, that adding some amount of delayed,
out-of-phase signal components to a piece of music can create a sense
of "air" or "ambience" that makes the playback seem more like
listening to the music as it might be when played in a live venue.
Multi-channel playback systems such as the venerable Dynaquad, or the
various digital-delay ambience-synthesis systems such as Yamaha and
a/d/s have made, have been used to good advantage for this for decades.
Although such systems tend to work best with additional loudspeakers,
they can have a subjective benefit even when used with a stereo
playback system.

In particular, multi-miked studio recordings are often largely or
completely free of realistic performance-room ambience, and the
injection of some (artificial) delayed and phase-incoherent components
into the music can "open up" such recordings and make them sound more
pleasant to many listeners.

Such modification of the signal is artifical. The resulting signal is
less accurate (in the objective sense). It may, on the other hand, be
more "realistic", in the sense that the music sounds more like it
might if the musicians were actually present in the listening room,
performing the music in a real live venue.

I believe that a very similar phenomenon can and does occur with LP
playback. There are a couple of physical mechanisms which can cause
an LP playback to include delayed, non-phase-coherent copies of the
music signal which were not present in the original recording (master
tape, direct-to-disk signal, or whatever). Acoustic feedback to the
LP, from the music playing from the speakers, is one such... this will
create delayed sound on the order of tens of milliseconds. Direct
"ringing" of sound impulses in the vinyl LP itself is another...
sound waves radiate outwards in the platter from the point of contact
of the stylus (action/reaction) and ring around the platter in various
ways.

It's probably not a coincidence that those turntables which had/have a
reputation for "extracting" the most "air" and "ambience" from an LP
recording, are those which tended to use hard mats, or discrete
multi-point support systems for the LP itself (and thus have a minimal
amount of physical damping of the platter). The Linn turntable was
perhaps the exemplar of this class. Turntables which use soft,
sticky, well-damped platter mats (e.g. the original Oracle) had a
reputation for sounding more "dry".

These delayed-signal artifacts of the LP playback process (created
through purely mechanical mechanisms rather than through digital
delay) are, once again, inaccuracies almost by definition. However, I
believe that they can make many recordings sound more subjectively
pleasant and "realistic" than otherwise.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.


Hmmm...

That looks like a *twisted* version of my own view that
vinyl sounds more realistic than CD (which it does)....??

That makes as much sense as saying: "I like the way this chef spices the
beef - it makes it taste fresher"

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Richard Crowley wrote:

Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

Nominated for r.a.t ridiculous statement of the year.

"Adds realism"? Do they read this stuff before posting it?
Or are they using a different definintion of "real" than the
rest of us?

I think that a valid distinction can be made between "accuracy" (a
term I use here to denote an objective relationship between source and
playback) and "realism" (which term I use to indicate a _subjective_
perception).

It's well known, for example, that adding some amount of delayed,
out-of-phase signal components to a piece of music can create a sense
of "air" or "ambience" that makes the playback seem more like
listening to the music as it might be when played in a live venue.
Multi-channel playback systems such as the venerable Dynaquad, or the
various digital-delay ambience-synthesis systems such as Yamaha and
a/d/s have made, have been used to good advantage for this for decades.
Although such systems tend to work best with additional loudspeakers,
they can have a subjective benefit even when used with a stereo
playback system.

In particular, multi-miked studio recordings are often largely or
completely free of realistic performance-room ambience, and the
injection of some (artificial) delayed and phase-incoherent components
into the music can "open up" such recordings and make them sound more
pleasant to many listeners.

Such modification of the signal is artifical. The resulting signal is
less accurate (in the objective sense). It may, on the other hand, be
more "realistic", in the sense that the music sounds more like it
might if the musicians were actually present in the listening room,
performing the music in a real live venue.

I believe that a very similar phenomenon can and does occur with LP
playback. There are a couple of physical mechanisms which can cause
an LP playback to include delayed, non-phase-coherent copies of the
music signal which were not present in the original recording (master
tape, direct-to-disk signal, or whatever). Acoustic feedback to the
LP, from the music playing from the speakers, is one such... this will
create delayed sound on the order of tens of milliseconds. Direct
"ringing" of sound impulses in the vinyl LP itself is another...
sound waves radiate outwards in the platter from the point of contact
of the stylus (action/reaction) and ring around the platter in various
ways.

It's probably not a coincidence that those turntables which had/have a
reputation for "extracting" the most "air" and "ambience" from an LP
recording, are those which tended to use hard mats, or discrete
multi-point support systems for the LP itself (and thus have a minimal
amount of physical damping of the platter). The Linn turntable was
perhaps the exemplar of this class. Turntables which use soft,
sticky, well-damped platter mats (e.g. the original Oracle) had a
reputation for sounding more "dry".

These delayed-signal artifacts of the LP playback process (created
through purely mechanical mechanisms rather than through digital
delay) are, once again, inaccuracies almost by definition. However, I
believe that they can make many recordings sound more subjectively
pleasant and "realistic" than otherwise.



This has leaked into ukra from the tech group, I presume?

I perhaps do not agree with everything I've read, but (as ukra's leading
'vinyl bigot') I would just like to say how refreshing it is to see an
intelligent rationale like this one - the digital bigots in ukra can't do
anything like it without getting all twisted out of shape!!

Independent View Of LP versus CD
 

Richard Crowley wrote:
Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.


Nominated for r.a.t ridiculous statement of the year.

"Adds realism"? Do they read this stuff before posting it?
Or are they using a different definintion of "real" than the
rest of us?



No, but you do seem to be using a different method of clipping a post to
make the point you want, and attempting to acredit the author of a
statement to the wrong group in this case.

--
Nick