Author's profile:

David Satz. B. Mus. degree, 1973, New England Conservatory (Boston);
teaching assistant to Rudolf Kolisch. Played in orchestras and chamber music
groups; recorded zillions of concerts and recitals. Moved to New York in
1981. Recording engineer, mainly remastering Red Seal LP recordings for CD,
at RCA Studios; Grammy award for "Best Historical Album", 1995. Programmer
and instructor of Windows programming (C, C++, C#). Translator (German to
English) and editorial nit-picker of technical and sales literature for
Schoeps GmbH.

Comment:

David Satz" wrote in message
ups.com
"

"
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
"

"
Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]
"

"
Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.
"

"
Back in the 1980s when people used to buy the LP and the
CD of the same album, play them both and compare the
results, they weren't really comparing the two media.
Instead, they were comparing the (generally quite
separate) mastering decisions--EQ, limiting, etc.--behind
the two products, plus the particular characteristics of
their LP and CD playback equipment.
"

"
Of course LP playback equipment varies far more in its
audible sound quality than CD playback equipment does.
But your method eliminates that variable completely, and
the mastering decisions of a commercial CD aren't a
factor, either.
"

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Author's profile:

David Satz. B. Mus. degree, 1973, New England Conservatory (Boston);
teaching assistant to Rudolf Kolisch. Played in orchestras and chamber
music groups; recorded zillions of concerts and recitals. Moved to New
York in 1981. Recording engineer, mainly remastering Red Seal LP
recordings for CD, at RCA Studios; Grammy award for "Best Historical
Album", 1995. Programmer and instructor of Windows programming (C, C++,
C#). Translator (German to English) and editorial nit-picker of technical
and sales literature for Schoeps GmbH.

Comment:

David Satz" wrote in message
ups.com
"

"
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
"

"
Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]
"

"
Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.
"

"
Back in the 1980s when people used to buy the LP and the
CD of the same album, play them both and compare the
results, they weren't really comparing the two media.
Instead, they were comparing the (generally quite
separate) mastering decisions--EQ, limiting, etc.--behind
the two products, plus the particular characteristics of
their LP and CD playback equipment.
"

"
Of course LP playback equipment varies far more in its
audible sound quality than CD playback equipment does.
But your method eliminates that variable completely, and
the mastering decisions of a commercial CD aren't a
factor, either.
"

A guy I work with used to work at a CD plant and from what he understands
from working there, the type of media used to deliver the master to the CD
plant could make some difference. If the media was digital, then the CD's
pressed would be exact digital copies, but if the media was analog, that
meant that what the plant got was going to be an "AAD" CD with the
additional possibility that the CD plant's analog to digital conversion
might not be as good as what could be done by a recording/mixing studio.

SPARS Code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_Code

Once the CD's were cut, they'd sample a few and play them in both a "low
end" and a "high end" CD player. The high end CD player would actually
report error detection/correction information and a certain amount of errors
were allowed in the final product, but I think they only allowed errors
which were able to be corrected by the CD player.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"Jeff Findley" wrote


A guy I work with used to work at a CD plant and from what he understands
from working there, the type of media used to deliver the master to the CD
plant could make some difference. If the media was digital, then the CD's
pressed would be exact digital copies, but if the media was analog, that
meant that what the plant got was going to be an "AAD" CD with the
additional possibility that the CD plant's analog to digital conversion
might not be as good as what could be done by a recording/mixing studio.

SPARS Code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_Code

Once the CD's were cut, they'd sample a few and play them in both a "low
end" and a "high end" CD player. The high end CD player would actually
report error detection/correction information and a certain amount of
errors were allowed in the final product, but I think they only allowed
errors which were able to be corrected by the CD player.



Interesting, but not entirely *news*, Jeff - this is why a few of us (with a
higher *anxiety threshold* than some here) don't trouble too much about what
processes (D or A) went into making various LPs and CDs and just get on with
getting the best out of them as an *end product* on our own kit....

(That said, I believe I can see why some of the 'pre digital/ss' stuff
commands the high prices it does from *discerning* collectors...)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Interesting, but not entirely *news*, Jeff - this is why a few of us (with
a higher *anxiety threshold* than some here) don't trouble too much about
what processes (D or A) went into making various LPs and CDs and just get
on with getting the best out of them as an *end product* on our own
kit....

(That said, I believe I can see why some of the 'pre digital/ss' stuff
commands the high prices it does from *discerning* collectors...)

Agreed.

Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor
safety"
- B. Franklin, Bartlett's Familiar Quotations (1919)

"Jeff Findley" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
Author's profile:

David Satz. B. Mus. degree, 1973, New England
Conservatory (Boston); teaching assistant to Rudolf
Kolisch. Played in orchestras and chamber music groups;
recorded zillions of concerts and recitals. Moved to New
York in 1981. Recording engineer, mainly remastering Red
Seal LP recordings for CD, at RCA Studios; Grammy award
for "Best Historical Album", 1995. Programmer and
instructor of Windows programming (C, C++, C#).
Translator (German to English) and editorial nit-picker
of technical and sales literature for Schoeps GmbH. Comment:

David Satz" wrote in message
ups.com
"

"
Chris Hornbeck wrote:
"

"
Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]
"

"
Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.
"

"
Back in the 1980s when people used to buy the LP and the
CD of the same album, play them both and compare the
results, they weren't really comparing the two media.
Instead, they were comparing the (generally quite
separate) mastering decisions--EQ, limiting,
etc.--behind the two products, plus the particular
characteristics of their LP and CD playback equipment.
"

"
Of course LP playback equipment varies far more in its
audible sound quality than CD playback equipment does.
But your method eliminates that variable completely, and
the mastering decisions of a commercial CD aren't a
factor, either.
"

A guy I work with used to work at a CD plant and from
what he understands from working there, the type of media
used to deliver the master to the CD plant could make
some difference. If the media was digital, then the CD's
pressed would be exact digital copies, but if the media
was analog, that meant that what the plant got was going
to be an "AAD" CD with the additional possibility that
the CD plant's analog to digital conversion might not be
as good as what could be done by a recording/mixing
studio.
SPARS Code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARS_Code

Once the CD's were cut, they'd sample a few and play them
in both a "low end" and a "high end" CD player. The high
end CD player would actually report error
detection/correction information and a certain amount of
errors were allowed in the final product, but I think
they only allowed errors which were able to be corrected
by the CD player.

That sounds similar to what I've heard from people who worked at CD plants.
The idea of people in CD plants mastering CD intended for wide-scale
distribution is a bit scary.

"Keith G" wrote in message


Interesting, but not entirely *news*, Jeff - this is why
a few of us (with a higher *anxiety threshold* than some
here) don't trouble too much about what processes (D or
A) went into making various LPs and CDs and just get on
with getting the best out of them as an *end product* on
our own kit....

Sometimes getting the most of of them as an end product is facilitated by
knowing about processes went into making various LPs and CDs.

Arny Krueger wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]

Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.


I beg to differ. I don't think this really demonstrates a comparrison
between the two media at all - if the CD copy sounds just like the vinyl
it just means that the CD is a very good storage media where you get out
(almost) exactly what you put in.

Imagine going the other way - take a CD and press a vinyl record from it
(going through all the mother/master/stamping steps). Do you think that
the end result would be inidistinguishable?

Or to put a finer point on it, imagine the third generation cassette
copy of "Abba's greatest hits" that spent the summer on the back
dashboard of my car. Transfer it to CD, and you'll find that the CD
sounds just like the third-generation sun-damaged Sweedish crooning on
the tape. What conclusions would you draw from that fact?

//Walt

Walt wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
Chris Hornbeck wrote:

Within the last few years [ ... ] I've found that I can
make a transfer from vinyl to CDR that I can't really
tell from the original, other than the cleaning rituals
[ ... ]

Chris, I just would like to say that you've come up with
the most (perhaps only) meaningful, realistic, practical
comparison method between LP and CD that I've ever heard
of.


I beg to differ. I don't think this really demonstrates a comparrison
between the two media at all - if the CD copy sounds just like the vinyl
it just means that the CD is a very good storage media where you get out
(almost) exactly what you put in.

Imagine going the other way - take a CD and press a vinyl record from it
(going through all the mother/master/stamping steps). Do you think that
the end result would be inidistinguishable?

Or to put a finer point on it, imagine the third generation cassette
copy of "Abba's greatest hits" that spent the summer on the back
dashboard of my car. Transfer it to CD, and you'll find that the CD
sounds just like the third-generation sun-damaged Sweedish crooning on
the tape. What conclusions would you draw from that fact?

//Walt


I think your example of the Abba tape illustrates the point perfectly:-

A CD copy of an LP or cassette will sound like the LP or cassette to the
limits of the A-D conversion process, which today can be of a VERY high
order. In practical terms, I would say that a CD copy is sonically
identical to the analogue source.

The converse is not true:- An LP cut from a CD will not sound identical,
whatever mastering it has gone through. There are those who think the LP
will sound better, that's fine as their opinion, but the fact that it
*is* different means that CD is a transparent medium (what you put in
you get out) whilst LP is not.

S.

In article ,
Serge Auckland wrote:
The converse is not true:- An LP cut from a CD will not sound identical,
whatever mastering it has gone through. There are those who think the LP
will sound better, that's fine as their opinion, but the fact that it
*is* different means that CD is a transparent medium (what you put in
you get out) whilst LP is not.

You can say this 'till you're blue in the face but it won't make a scrap
of difference to vinyl freaks. Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2006-11-02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Serge Auckland wrote:
The converse is not true:- An LP cut from a CD will not sound identical,
whatever mastering it has gone through. There are those who think the LP
will sound better, that's fine as their opinion, but the fact that it
*is* different means that CD is a transparent medium (what you put in
you get out) whilst LP is not.

You can say this 'till you're blue in the face but it won't make a scrap
of difference to vinyl freaks. Vinyl *adds* realism to anything. Magic it
may be but how and why they don't care.

Also Vinyl allows people to create different sounds on the fly by moving
the record by hand forwards & backwards; something that cannot be done
easily with a CD. It is quite possible that the ability to move the
records is a main reason that vinyl is in demand since the records get
"ruined" and the sonic qualities of the recorded material doesn't matter.