"Serge Auckland" wrote

As to
phasing, I really don't understand the point of a variable phase
control. 0 & 180 switched should be provided to phase up the sub with
the mains (which hopefully will be in phase with each other), but apart
from that, I can't see it's possible to match the phase of the main LF,
as it will be frequency dependant. As you suggest, with two subs, trying
to get the phase right would be a nightmare.


I've twiddled it back and forth and can't say it makes a lot of
difference anyway and it ends up back at 0 deg!


Other controls needed are a crossover frequency selector and a level
control. Ideally, if the main speakers are small (say don't go below
70Hz) then the extreme bass should be rolled-off to the mains
considerably improving their power handling and lowering distortion.


Not sure I understood that....??

If the main 'speakers are small, they won't reproduce deep bass. Feeding
them with deep bass from the power amp will only serve to stress the bass
unit suspension and heat up the voice coil without actually producing any
sound.


OK, but this happens a million times a day on a million setups with small
speakers, does it not.....???


It is therefore better to limit the bass drive to
small speakers so that they are only given what they can deal with. It is
actually much better if the bass reduction can be done *before* the power
amplifier so that the PA isn't being asked to generate unusable volts.
This way, the power amp driving the small 'speakers will be able to
generate more volts that the 'speakers *can* handle, and so effectively
produce a higher output.


Hmm, OK.....



For my son's Christmas present some years ago, I built him a subwoofer


'Built' - as in 'done up an old bicycle'?? Nowadays, your kids could/would
divorce you for that....!! ;-)


system consisting of an electronic filter removing bass below a preset
frequency, a mono combiner and filter providing a balanced output to a
single subwoofer. The filter frequencies were selectable as was levels to
the subwoofer. The main 'speakers (small Missions) were connected to the
L&R output of a Quad 303 and were driven from 70Hz upwards. 70Hz downwards
was monoed to a balanced output driving a 100wpc AIWA power amp in bridge
mode into the subwoofer which was a large bass-reflex box tuned to 20Hz.
It was most successful, and saw him through his University days and
afterwards, not always to the pleasure of his neighbours however....


:-)

OK, with this setup (Oktavas):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup01.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup02.JPG


I grabbed these sub/no sub snippets (the filename gives you the clue):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


And these longer samples (because it impossible to shorten it too much):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


(The dreaded heartbeat has crept in here again and if they come up
*absolutely identical* then I'll have buggered up the file-saving!! :-)

Now, unless I'm missing summat, I can't see how the (In)Fidelios are
benefitting from the sub - the omnipresent 'traffic noise' (with the sub up
loud enough to 'count' - which it is) and the 'wha wha wha' tail-off (way
behind the speakers) is far more of a PITA than any extra whoomph on the
deep stuff....??

The problem is the sub's gotta go back tomorrow and I've got only a small
'WOO' to experiment with it!

Keith G wrote:
Keith G wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote

As to
phasing, I really don't understand the point of a variable phase
control. 0 & 180 switched should be provided to phase up the sub with
the mains (which hopefully will be in phase with each other), but apart
from that, I can't see it's possible to match the phase of the main LF,
as it will be frequency dependant. As you suggest, with two subs, trying
to get the phase right would be a nightmare.

I've twiddled it back and forth and can't say it makes a lot of
difference anyway and it ends up back at 0 deg!


Other controls needed are a crossover frequency selector and a level
control. Ideally, if the main speakers are small (say don't go below
70Hz) then the extreme bass should be rolled-off to the mains
considerably improving their power handling and lowering distortion.

Not sure I understood that....??

If the main 'speakers are small, they won't reproduce deep bass. Feeding
them with deep bass from the power amp will only serve to stress the bass
unit suspension and heat up the voice coil without actually producing any
sound.


OK, but this happens a million times a day on a million setups with small
speakers, does it not.....???


It is therefore better to limit the bass drive to
small speakers so that they are only given what they can deal with. It is
actually much better if the bass reduction can be done *before* the power
amplifier so that the PA isn't being asked to generate unusable volts.
This way, the power amp driving the small 'speakers will be able to
generate more volts that the 'speakers *can* handle, and so effectively
produce a higher output.


Hmm, OK.....


For my son's Christmas present some years ago, I built him a subwoofer


'Built' - as in 'done up an old bicycle'?? Nowadays, your kids could/would
divorce you for that....!! ;-)


system consisting of an electronic filter removing bass below a preset
frequency, a mono combiner and filter providing a balanced output to a
single subwoofer. The filter frequencies were selectable as was levels to
the subwoofer. The main 'speakers (small Missions) were connected to the
L&R output of a Quad 303 and were driven from 70Hz upwards. 70Hz downwards
was monoed to a balanced output driving a 100wpc AIWA power amp in bridge
mode into the subwoofer which was a large bass-reflex box tuned to 20Hz.
It was most successful, and saw him through his University days and
afterwards, not always to the pleasure of his neighbours however....


:-)

OK, with this setup (Oktavas):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup01.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup02.JPG


I grabbed these sub/no sub snippets (the filename gives you the clue):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


And these longer samples (because it impossible to shorten it too much):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


(The dreaded heartbeat has crept in here again and if they come up
*absolutely identical* then I'll have buggered up the file-saving!! :-)

Now, unless I'm missing summat, I can't see how the (In)Fidelios are
benefitting from the sub - the omnipresent 'traffic noise' (with the sub up
loud enough to 'count' - which it is) and the 'wha wha wha' tail-off (way
behind the speakers) is far more of a PITA than any extra whoomph on the
deep stuff....??

The problem is the sub's gotta go back tomorrow and I've got only a small
'WOO' to experiment with it!




"Serge Auckland" wrote

As to
phasing, I really don't understand the point of a variable phase
control. 0 & 180 switched should be provided to phase up the sub with
the mains (which hopefully will be in phase with each other), but apart
from that, I can't see it's possible to match the phase of the main LF,
as it will be frequency dependant. As you suggest, with two subs, trying
to get the phase right would be a nightmare.

I've twiddled it back and forth and can't say it makes a lot of
difference anyway and it ends up back at 0 deg!


Other controls needed are a crossover frequency selector and a level
control. Ideally, if the main speakers are small (say don't go below
70Hz) then the extreme bass should be rolled-off to the mains
considerably improving their power handling and lowering distortion.

Not sure I understood that....??

If the main 'speakers are small, they won't reproduce deep bass. Feeding
them with deep bass from the power amp will only serve to stress the bass
unit suspension and heat up the voice coil without actually producing any
sound.


OK, but this happens a million times a day on a million setups with small
speakers, does it not.....???


It is therefore better to limit the bass drive to
small speakers so that they are only given what they can deal with. It is
actually much better if the bass reduction can be done *before* the power
amplifier so that the PA isn't being asked to generate unusable volts.
This way, the power amp driving the small 'speakers will be able to
generate more volts that the 'speakers *can* handle, and so effectively
produce a higher output.


Hmm, OK.....


For my son's Christmas present some years ago, I built him a subwoofer


'Built' - as in 'done up an old bicycle'?? Nowadays, your kids could/would
divorce you for that....!! ;-)


system consisting of an electronic filter removing bass below a preset
frequency, a mono combiner and filter providing a balanced output to a
single subwoofer. The filter frequencies were selectable as was levels to
the subwoofer. The main 'speakers (small Missions) were connected to the
L&R output of a Quad 303 and were driven from 70Hz upwards. 70Hz downwards
was monoed to a balanced output driving a 100wpc AIWA power amp in bridge
mode into the subwoofer which was a large bass-reflex box tuned to 20Hz.
It was most successful, and saw him through his University days and
afterwards, not always to the pleasure of his neighbours however....


:-)

OK, with this setup (Oktavas):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup01.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/submicsetup02.JPG


I grabbed these sub/no sub snippets (the filename gives you the clue):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


And these longer samples (because it impossible to shorten it too much):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20No%20Sub.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...With%20Sub.mp3


(The dreaded heartbeat has crept in here again and if they come up
*absolutely identical* then I'll have buggered up the file-saving!! :-)

Now, unless I'm missing summat, I can't see how the (In)Fidelios are
benefitting from the sub - the omnipresent 'traffic noise' (with the sub up
loud enough to 'count' - which it is) and the 'wha wha wha' tail-off (way
behind the speakers) is far more of a PITA than any extra whoomph on the
deep stuff....??

The problem is the sub's gotta go back tomorrow and I've got only a small
'WOO' to experiment with it!



I haven't listened to your samples as I'm currently using the internal
'speakers on my laptop, and they're not the best thing to use for
evaluating subwoofers.

In my view, the best way to set up a sub is to set the crossover
frequency at whatever you reckon is the -3dB point of your existing
'speakers, in your case, I'd start with 50Hz.

Start with the level control turned right down, and listening to normal
music (say an orchestra) turn the sub level up until you can hear it
filling in the bottom. Then try some bass heavy music and make up/down
adjustments until it sounds right. If you can't get it sounding right,
then try changing the crossover frequency, say 40Hz.

When I first set mine up, the biggest surprise was on some chamber music
which didn't have any deep bass *in the music*, but there was plenty in
the recorded ambiance, and it went from sounding like a studio recording
to sounding live. It was, by the way, recorded in a hall rather than a
studio, but with the subs, you could hear distant traffic noise.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



Now, unless I'm missing summat, I can't see how the (In)Fidelios are
benefitting from the sub - the omnipresent 'traffic noise' (with the sub
up loud enough to 'count' - which it is) and the 'wha wha wha' tail-off
(way behind the speakers) is far more of a PITA than any extra whoomph on
the deep stuff....??

The problem is the sub's gotta go back tomorrow and I've got only a small
'WOO' to experiment with it!



I haven't listened to your samples as I'm currently using the internal
'speakers on my laptop, and they're not the best thing to use for
evaluating subwoofers.


The trick is to drop 'em to a CDRW and bang 'em through your main system,
but no worries...



In my view, the best way to set up a sub is to set the crossover frequency
at whatever you reckon is the -3dB point of your existing 'speakers, in
your case, I'd start with 50Hz.

Start with the level control turned right down, and listening to normal
music (say an orchestra) turn the sub level up until you can hear it
filling in the bottom. Then try some bass heavy music and make up/down
adjustments until it sounds right. If you can't get it sounding right,
then try changing the crossover frequency, say 40Hz.



Thank you for that Serge, but it has all been done - I'm fairly Oh Fay with
the methodology and the 40 Hz setting is the best. (You have not heard these
InFidelios Serge - they are a whole new ballgame, especially as the drivers
are starting to come on song, the Jerichos that you have heard now reside in
the garage...!! ;-)



When I first set mine up, the biggest surprise was on some chamber music
which didn't have any deep bass *in the music*, but there was plenty in
the recorded ambiance, and it went from sounding like a studio recording
to sounding live. It was, by the way, recorded in a hall rather than a
studio, but with the subs, you could hear distant traffic noise.


Well....

One should take a length of Universal Beam about 1200mm long (not too big -
the 178 x 102mm section will do), drill a hole in the neutral zone (halfway
up the web, where compression and tension neutralise each other) about 2/3
of the way along (at the 800/400mm mark) and suspend it from one's scrotum
by means of a noose at the end of a suitable length of prickly sisal garden
twine so that the 'short end' is about 200mm from the ground, with the other
end remaining in continuous contact with the ground. This done, one should
then attempt to engage fully and enthusiastically in a game of 'five a side
football'...

Is how much I need this sub for music...

But never mind me, after all WTF do I know? I made Swim sit through the
first couple of minutes of no less than 7 or 8 tracks of *unbridled techno
bass* (Yello 'The Eye') with and without the sub just now and she picked the
'no sub version' *unfailingly* 'til the very last one and, having lost it by
then, said she wasn't sure!

(I have the opportunity to hook it up for a movie now and asked if she
wanted to try it on summat 'explosive' - *Nope* was the reply, once
again....!!)

Tbh, it puts me in mind of an E-Type towing a caravan which desperately
needs its tyres pumping up!! (And this sub is the best I've had here so far,
sans doute...!! ;-)

There ya go....

"Roy O Roy is that Your Horse ? "


But if they work well with others too, then why not?


** If the moon were really made of green cheese we could send all the mice
there....





...... Phil

Keith G wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


Now, unless I'm missing summat, I can't see how the (In)Fidelios are
benefitting from the sub - the omnipresent 'traffic noise' (with the sub
up loud enough to 'count' - which it is) and the 'wha wha wha' tail-off
(way behind the speakers) is far more of a PITA than any extra whoomph on
the deep stuff....??

The problem is the sub's gotta go back tomorrow and I've got only a small
'WOO' to experiment with it!



I haven't listened to your samples as I'm currently using the internal
'speakers on my laptop, and they're not the best thing to use for
evaluating subwoofers.


The trick is to drop 'em to a CDRW and bang 'em through your main system,
but no worries...


I've finally got a computer that's connected t'internet, to newsgroups,
to a hifi :-)

And, I couldn't tell a great deal of difference in the bass. The subbed
tracks sounded 'fuller', but a clear issue hear is that my speakers only
go down to 61Hz (Dynaudio 42s), so it's unlikely (I think) that much
bass would come through your recordings. The biggest difference is the
sense of 'airiness', but here I preferred the non-sub tracks. This is
exactly the thing I find, but yours are quite an exaggerated example.
Sub on - almost like one of those 3D virtualiser switches; sub off sharp
focus/soundstage.

I've no idea why this is happening - I'd have thought that amplifying
such low frequencies could not possibly affect, say, female vocals. I've
never read anything about this in reviews.

I'd add that the sub does introduce sounds I haven't heard before, and
on the whole and at lowish levels it's impressive - that's with tiddly
Dynaudio Contours (43Hz) on the main non-computer hifi. If I get time
I'll try your tracks on my subbed system.


In my view, the best way to set up a sub is to set the crossover frequency
at whatever you reckon is the -3dB point of your existing 'speakers, in
your case, I'd start with 50Hz.

Start with the level control turned right down, and listening to normal
music (say an orchestra) turn the sub level up until you can hear it
filling in the bottom. Then try some bass heavy music and make up/down
adjustments until it sounds right. If you can't get it sounding right,
then try changing the crossover frequency, say 40Hz.



Thank you for that Serge, but it has all been done - I'm fairly Oh Fay with
the methodology and the 40 Hz setting is the best. (You have not heard these
InFidelios Serge - they are a whole new ballgame, especially as the drivers
are starting to come on song, the Jerichos that you have heard now reside in
the garage...!! ;-)


The REL manuals are good, particularly for me - there's one good summary
paragraph -

"Hint: There is a tendency among audiophiles to set the crossover point
too high and the gain
too low when first learning how to integrate a REL with the system, the
fear being one of
overwhelming the main speakers with bass. But in doing so, the resulting
set-up will be
lacking in bass depth and dynamics. The proper crossover point and gain
setting will increase
overall dynamics, allow for extended bass frequencies, and improve
soundstage properties.
Please note: gain must be adjusted in conjunction with crossover
changes. In general, when
selecting a lower crossover point, more gain may need to be applied."

I've settled on a 36Hz xover frequency for the Contour 1.3/IIs, with the
volume at about half. However, tracks with 'big bass' played loud like
the one on this page:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/audiosamples

don't work well at all, but this may be a limitation of my room. The sub
is one of these:

http://www.rel.net/strata5.htm


When I first set mine up, the biggest surprise was on some chamber music
which didn't have any deep bass *in the music*, but there was plenty in
the recorded ambiance, and it went from sounding like a studio recording
to sounding live. It was, by the way, recorded in a hall rather than a
studio, but with the subs, you could hear distant traffic noise.


Well....

One should take a length of Universal Beam about 1200mm long (not too big -
the 178 x 102mm section will do), drill a hole in the neutral zone (halfway
up the web, where compression and tension neutralise each other) about 2/3
of the way along (at the 800/400mm mark) and suspend it from one's scrotum
by means of a noose at the end of a suitable length of prickly sisal garden
twine so that the 'short end' is about 200mm from the ground, with the other
end remaining in continuous contact with the ground. This done, one should
then attempt to engage fully and enthusiastically in a game of 'five a side
football'...

Is how much I need this sub for music...


:-)

But never mind me, after all WTF do I know? I made Swim sit through the
first couple of minutes of no less than 7 or 8 tracks of *unbridled techno
bass* (Yello 'The Eye') with and without the sub just now and she picked the
'no sub version' *unfailingly* 'til the very last one and, having lost it by
then, said she wasn't sure!

(I have the opportunity to hook it up for a movie now and asked if she
wanted to try it on summat 'explosive' - *Nope* was the reply, once
again....!!)

Tbh, it puts me in mind of an E-Type towing a caravan which desperately
needs its tyres pumping up!! (And this sub is the best I've had here so far,
sans doute...!! ;-)

There ya go....


I think Serge has explained it well - I can hear the advantages he
describes. It's just for me, with the woolly soundstage issue and
overblown bass on certain recordings, I'm not too sure overall.

Rob

Phil Allison wrote:
"Roy O Roy is that Your Horse ? "


But if they work well with others too, then why not?


** If the moon were really made of green cheese we could send all the mice
there....





..... Phil




OK I admit it, I've no idea what planet you are from or what you are
talking about.

" O Roy, O Roy is that Your Horse ? "


** Click to hear song and see lyrics:

http://www.conniekaldorusa.com/long_tall_texan.htm



But if they work well with others too, then why not?


** If the moon were really made of green cheese we could send all the
mice there....


OK I admit it, I've no idea what planet you are from or what you are
talking about.



** Roy Boy has no ****ing idea what planet this is nor what anyone here is
talking about.




....... Phil

"Rob" wrote



I've finally got a computer that's connected t'internet, to newsgroups, to
a hifi :-)

And, I couldn't tell a great deal of difference in the bass. The subbed
tracks sounded 'fuller', but a clear issue hear is that my speakers only
go down to 61Hz (Dynaudio 42s), so it's unlikely (I think) that much bass
would come through your recordings. The biggest difference is the sense of
'airiness', but here I preferred the non-sub tracks. This is exactly the
thing I find, but yours are quite an exaggerated example. Sub on - almost
like one of those 3D virtualiser switches; sub off sharp focus/soundstage.


Exactly...



The REL manuals are good, particularly for me - there's one good summary
paragraph -

"Hint: There is a tendency among audiophiles to set the crossover point
too high and the gain
too low when first learning how to integrate a REL with the system, the
fear being one of
overwhelming the main speakers with bass. But in doing so, the resulting
set-up will be
lacking in bass depth and dynamics. The proper crossover point and gain
setting will increase
overall dynamics, allow for extended bass frequencies, and improve
soundstage properties.
Please note: gain must be adjusted in conjunction with crossover changes.
In general, when
selecting a lower crossover point, more gain may need to be applied."

I've settled on a 36Hz xover frequency for the Contour 1.3/IIs, with the
volume at about half. However, tracks with 'big bass' played loud like the
one on this page:

http://patchoulian.googlepages.com/audiosamples



Well, I'm sorry to say it but that track (Mighty Sparrow) only serves to
*better* show what a disconnected, omnipresent, rubbery drone these subs
create!



don't work well at all, but this may be a limitation of my room. The sub
is one of these:

http://www.rel.net/strata5.htm


Blue LEDs, eh.....???

Well, *OK*.......!! :-)



I think Serge has explained it well - I can hear the advantages he
describes. It's just for me, with the woolly soundstage issue and
overblown bass on certain recordings, I'm not too sure overall.


I think Serge explained it very well, but I am more interested in a clear,
unsullied depiction of the music than the *ambience* - I'm at a loss as to
how 'traffic noise' can enhance a chamber music recording! My own view is
that ambience may well *add* to the music performance for some people but it
is not *part* of the music - I can add all the ambience I want, at this
end!!

Different story for movies though - where the pace and timing isn't quite so
critical and the continuous, catarrhal thrum can actually add something to
the 'excitement'. Shortly, before it has to go back, I will run up 'Screen
2' and give SPR an airing to see if it's worth building one for movies.

(Been ruled out for 'Screen 1' already, though...!! ;-)

Keith G wrote:



I think Serge explained it very well, but I am more interested in a clear,
unsullied depiction of the music than the *ambience* - I'm at a loss as to
how 'traffic noise' can enhance a chamber music recording! My own view is
that ambience may well *add* to the music performance for some people but it
is not *part* of the music - I can add all the ambience I want, at this
end!!


Traffic noise in itself doesn't add to the music, but, to me, it adds to
the sense of a live performance rather than a studio recording. I've
found myself enjoying far more live recordings even with the inevitable
audience cough than "perfect" studio sessions. That's just a personal
thing though, I can quite accept that others would prefer the studio.

However, even on studio recordings and even on jazz/rock music the
extended LF response improves things like kick drums, double basses and
on organ music recorded in a natural acoustic, the extended LF makes a
huge difference to the feeling of a real venue.

I would love to try one of the ultra-low sub-sub woofers that work on
the variable vane principle. They should go down to 0 Hz
theoretically...you could dry your socks in front of one.......
but I doubt there's much actually recorded below 20Hz as current studio
mics don't go down below that.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



I think Serge explained it very well, but I am more interested in a
clear, unsullied depiction of the music than the *ambience* - I'm at a
loss as to how 'traffic noise' can enhance a chamber music recording! My
own view is that ambience may well *add* to the music performance for
some people but it is not *part* of the music - I can add all the
ambience I want, at this end!!


Traffic noise in itself doesn't add to the music, but, to me, it adds to
the sense of a live performance rather than a studio recording. I've found
myself enjoying far more live recordings even with the inevitable audience
cough than "perfect" studio sessions. That's just a personal thing though,
I can quite accept that others would prefer the studio.


It's not a cut and dried thing - provided there's some 'air' I don't have to
have too much 'room' to enjoy ensemble music. I have some commercial
recordings with birdsong in the background which I would have thought was
more accidental than incidental and it certainly adds to the feeling of it
being recorded in a 'real' setting (ruined abbey?) and I have even added
birdsong/distant dogs to some of my own stuff - it can work very well and
create an illusion of great space, but I suspect 'ambient noises' being
added to recordings is in danger of being done to death these days and it
has put my previously-mentioned ideas of a digital recorder on hold for the
time being.

(That and the recent splash-out on 3 x HDMI/DLP cinema upgrade setups which
has run the coffers dry for the moment/forseeable/rest of my life...!! ;-)



However, even on studio recordings and even on jazz/rock music the
extended LF response improves things like kick drums, double basses and on
organ music recorded in a natural acoustic, the extended LF makes a huge
difference to the feeling of a real venue.


Sure, but it would work better for me if it wasn't so fekkin' *rubbery* and
disjointed/late. I have just tried sub/no sub on Saving Private Ryan battle
scenes where the timing isn't quite so important and I'm still not
convinced....



I would love to try one of the ultra-low sub-sub woofers that work on the
variable vane principle. They should go down to 0 Hz theoretically...you
could dry your socks in front of one.......


Don't need one - I've got 300Bs for that!! :-)



but I doubt there's much actually recorded below 20Hz as current studio
mics don't go down below that.


My own mics don't seem to claim much below 30 Hz - hence the difficulty
trying to 'record' a sub!

I'm out of time with the sub I have got here and would have liked a week or
two more with it, but 'gun to my head', I would have to say 'not really
worth the bother' atm - they bring too much to the party for too much of the
time and it's a faff to make them go away. Get the gain right so there isn't
a continual 'engine room' thrum and the effect is reduced to not much more
than a little rush of huffing and puffing from time to time - and most of
that arriving just too late to save a drowning witch!

I can see they might work with 'normal' speakers better than the paper-coned
FR jobbies like my Lowthers, but having striven towards clarity and 'speed'
it doesn't seem to make much sense to ladle in the exact same *blurry
slurry* I have been seeking to remove!!

Jury's back in and it don't look good.....