"max graff" wrote in message
oups.com
Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this
weekend and came across a sales guy commenting "Mark
Levinson amplifers are just overrated peice of yuppy
trash".

As if Mcintosh would never sell any of their seemingly less overpriced
products to any yuppy with the coinage and the desire.

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs.

A simple case of branding by Harmon International, who own the name.

Mark himself has lost the rights to both his name and his sexy wife, the
author.

But car stereo systems don't mean much to me. High-end
2-channel home audio does ;-)

What means more to you, sound quality or bragging rights?

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Well, these are "any comments". ;-)

Arny Krueger wrote:
"max graff" wrote in message
oups.com
Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this
weekend and came across a sales guy commenting "Mark
Levinson amplifers are just overrated peice of yuppy
trash".

As if Mcintosh would never sell any of their seemingly less overpriced
products to any yuppy with the coinage and the desire.

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs.

A simple case of branding by Harmon International, who own the name.

Mark himself has lost the rights to both his name and his sexy wife, the
author.

But car stereo systems don't mean much to me. High-end
2-channel home audio does ;-)

What means more to you, sound quality or bragging rights?

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Well, these are "any comments". ;-)


In my view, both the statements in the Subject line are true for most
"high-end" equipment.

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are
well engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand
values that allows them to charge premium prices which other brands
can't. I remember years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a
"premium" range selling at similar prices to other High-End brands and
which I'm sure was just as good, but very few shops carried them and
enthusiasts shunned them. Their Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and
they are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same
for a *lot* less money.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are well
engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand values that
allows them to charge premium prices which other brands can't. I remember
years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a "premium" range selling at
similar prices to other High-End brands and which I'm sure was just as
good, but very few shops carried them and enthusiasts shunned them. Their
Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and they
are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same for a
*lot* less money.



The demise of 'famous names' in the face of steep competition isn't
restricted to hifi gear. I believe it's the inevitable consequence of
manufacturers try to retain a significant percentage of the available market
without fully understanding the radical changes needed to be able to keep up
('parts bin/existing designs' thinking for a start). The question is are
companies like ML and Krell in a healthy position? If so, I don't see any
problem - not everyone is impoverished scum and not everyone wants their
converted lofts/penthouses/yachts sullied with the *cheapest* kit that'll
get the job done....

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Remotes are good also....

Keith G wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are well
engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand values that
allows them to charge premium prices which other brands can't. I remember
years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a "premium" range selling at
similar prices to other High-End brands and which I'm sure was just as
good, but very few shops carried them and enthusiasts shunned them. Their
Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and they
are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same for a
*lot* less money.



The demise of 'famous names' in the face of steep competition isn't
restricted to hifi gear. I believe it's the inevitable consequence of
manufacturers try to retain a significant percentage of the available market
without fully understanding the radical changes needed to be able to keep up
('parts bin/existing designs' thinking for a start). The question is are
companies like ML and Krell in a healthy position? If so, I don't see any
problem - not everyone is impoverished scum and not everyone wants their
converted lofts/penthouses/yachts sullied with the *cheapest* kit that'll
get the job done....

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Remotes are good also....



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural,
aesthetic (choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with sound
quality which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a very high
order. Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end from the
"normal" stuff is the machined-out-of-solid casework, turntables that
could easily hold up the Parthenon, 'speakers that could *be* the
Parthenon and so on. It's moved on from a quest for audio "perfection"
to something that enhances the decor, becomes a talking point with
visitors, or is just pleasing to look at. Much like a statue, painting
or any other objet d'art.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural, aesthetic
(choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with sound quality
which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a very high order.
Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end from the "normal" stuff
is the machined-out-of-solid casework, turntables that could easily hold
up the Parthenon, 'speakers that could *be* the Parthenon and so on. It's
moved on from a quest for audio "perfection" to something that enhances
the decor, becomes a talking point with visitors, or is just pleasing to
look at. Much like a statue, painting or any other objet d'art.


Absolutely, but is it really such a bad thing?

There's a scale (passing through good VFM) from cheap crap to OTT bling in
all things manufactured/purchased - food, clothing, furniture, tools, sports
equipment &c, but my favourite analogy for hifi is the subject of cars -
nowadays, they mostly all do the job they are designed for pretty well and
they are within the scope of anybody who is old enough to drive (more's the
pity). Cheaper models now have all the features that used to be only on the
most expensive marques and its up to the individual (and his
requirements/resources) as to what he spends his money on. (Apologies to the
Grammar Police...) In both cars and hifi, it's the top end of the market
that sets the standards and it's only a good thing when the cheaper (VFM)
stuff catches up, IMO...

There is no *need* to buy the biggest/best that money can afford and there
will be occasions and circumstances when this wouldn't be the best way
forward anyway, but the choice is there for anyone sufficiently interested
in it or whose lifestyle (and social standing?) requires it. POQ differs
with the individual and, although I probably would not go for silly-priced
gear myself, even if I could afford it, I don't blame anyone who does if
they don't have to sell a kidney to get it.

(Interestingly, it seems a common thing for the hoi polloi to scream
at/about those who do choose to spend at the 'bling' end of the spectrum but
I have yet to hear a 'bling purchaser' do the same to the people buying the
cheaper stuff...??)

There was a time when good 'hifi' sound was the exclusive province of people
like 'surveyors', bank managers and dentists (Quad Squad), the irony is that
now anyone can afford it seems they've let the standards of the
recorded/broadcast music *itself* go to the point where the 'quality' of the
kit matters less now than it ever did, provided the kit has enough poke to
get the sound levels high enough..!!

Just my toupee.....

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Serge Auckland" wrote



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural,
aesthetic (choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with
sound quality which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a
very high order. Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end
from the "normal" stuff is the machined-out-of-solid casework,
turntables that could easily hold up the Parthenon, 'speakers that
could *be* the Parthenon and so on. It's moved on from a quest for
audio "perfection" to something that enhances the decor, becomes a
talking point with visitors, or is just pleasing to look at. Much
like a statue, painting or any other objet d'art.

I tend to regard it as "jewellery for boys". :-)


Absolutely, but is it really such a bad thing?

Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have* to
pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.

I'd certainly recommend people to buy equipment whose looks, features, and
durability are of a high order - if they are minded to agree that those
aspects are important to them. However the concern is for those who only
'known' what they have read by scanning a few magazines who go into a shop
and are mislead into parting with a lot of cash under the delusion that
these things are required for good sound.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Serge Auckland" wrote



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural,
aesthetic (choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with
sound quality which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a
very high order. Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end
from the "normal" stuff is the machined-out-of-solid casework,
turntables that could easily hold up the Parthenon, 'speakers that
could *be* the Parthenon and so on. It's moved on from a quest for
audio "perfection" to something that enhances the decor, becomes a
talking point with visitors, or is just pleasing to look at. Much
like a statue, painting or any other objet d'art.

I tend to regard it as "jewellery for boys". :-)


Absolutely, but is it really such a bad thing?

Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have* to
pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.



How innocent or gullible can you be to actually *have* the money to throw
down on 'high-end bling'? (Different story if someone sold a
kidney/child/their only house to buy it - then the sooner they are removed
from the gene pool, the better!!) But I maintain that if anyone perceives
(or is persuaded to perceive) a 'better sound' from expensive (ridiculously
expensive, if you like) kit and *they can afford it* where's the harm? Said
it a million times before - not everyone seeks 'cheap' or even 'good VFM' -
even with stuff like casual footware, the 'badge' is all for some types....

I for one don't think the dissappearance of the 'high end' in any commodity
is a good thing - as I stated earlier, standards are are raised only by the
high end and, from what I can see of it, 'cheap only' usually brings down a
commercial organisation that can't achieve the necessary, unassailable
'critical mass' like that of Walmart and Tesco, who can 'pile it high and
sell it cheap'...!! (Witness the occasional disappearance of 'home
electronics' high street chains and Internet dotcoms...)

'Expensive only' is a different ballgame and can/does work in many areas,
but mostly for very well-established brands in the various *luxury item*
categories - it can be a short road to ruin for organisations that don't
realise *positive cashflow* needs to be as regular as the need to eat....

(Note also the topic is about expensive brands, not 'snake oil' products as
such....)



I'd certainly recommend people to buy equipment whose looks, features, and
durability are of a high order - if they are minded to agree that those
aspects are important to them. However the concern is for those who only
'known' what they have read by scanning a few magazines who go into a shop
and are mislead into parting with a lot of cash under the delusion that
these things are required for good sound.


There's probably more of that goes on at the low-midfi end of the market
than with the truly expensive stuff - this month's '5 star product' kinda
thing....??

Keith G wrote:
snip

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)


Blue LEDs - it's the future Keith; don't resist :-)

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
snip

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward'
nature to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits
and mebbe a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)


Blue LEDs - it's the future Keith; don't resist :-)



I know, I know!!

I wanted a pair of jimjams with blue LED buttons on for Christmas but didn't
get them:

a) I'm ahead of myself and they don't exist yet...

b) Changed my mind anyway - don't want to start a trend/mad rush and add
further to the planet's *global warming* problems!!

;-)

any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Hi Keith

How about some laser lights shining around on the ceiling while the
music plays?

David