Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this weekend and came
across a sales guy commenting "Mark Levinson amplifers are just
overrated peice of yuppy trash".

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs. But car stereo
systems don't mean much to me. High-end 2-channel home audio does ;-)

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Max

On 14 Jan 2007 14:36:54 -0800, "max graff" wrote:

Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this weekend and came
across a sales guy commenting "Mark Levinson amplifers are just
overrated peice of yuppy trash".

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs. But car stereo
systems don't mean much to me. High-end 2-channel home audio does ;-)

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Max

Are you looking for genuinely good performance or just bragging
rights? If the former, buy pretty much anything that takes your fancy;
buy on the basis of offering you the right kind and number of inputs,
and power to suit your needs. If your room or speakers are
particularly dire you might want to include a set of tone controls.

The result will be indistinguishable from the best of high end
amplifiers, and a great deal better than a good number of them, which
have put cosmetics before design competence.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"max graff" wrote in message
oups.com
Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this
weekend and came across a sales guy commenting "Mark
Levinson amplifers are just overrated peice of yuppy
trash".

As if Mcintosh would never sell any of their seemingly less overpriced
products to any yuppy with the coinage and the desire.

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs.

A simple case of branding by Harmon International, who own the name.

Mark himself has lost the rights to both his name and his sexy wife, the
author.

But car stereo systems don't mean much to me. High-end
2-channel home audio does ;-)

What means more to you, sound quality or bragging rights?

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Well, these are "any comments". ;-)

Arny Krueger wrote:
"max graff" wrote in message
oups.com
Hi guys,

I was auditioning some lovely Mcintosh amplifiers this
weekend and came across a sales guy commenting "Mark
Levinson amplifers are just overrated peice of yuppy
trash".

As if Mcintosh would never sell any of their seemingly less overpriced
products to any yuppy with the coinage and the desire.

I know that all the top-of-line Lexus models carry MLs.

A simple case of branding by Harmon International, who own the name.

Mark himself has lost the rights to both his name and his sexy wife, the
author.

But car stereo systems don't mean much to me. High-end
2-channel home audio does ;-)

What means more to you, sound quality or bragging rights?

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Well, these are "any comments". ;-)


In my view, both the statements in the Subject line are true for most
"high-end" equipment.

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are
well engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand
values that allows them to charge premium prices which other brands
can't. I remember years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a
"premium" range selling at similar prices to other High-End brands and
which I'm sure was just as good, but very few shops carried them and
enthusiasts shunned them. Their Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and
they are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same
for a *lot* less money.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are well
engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand values that
allows them to charge premium prices which other brands can't. I remember
years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a "premium" range selling at
similar prices to other High-End brands and which I'm sure was just as
good, but very few shops carried them and enthusiasts shunned them. Their
Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and they
are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same for a
*lot* less money.



The demise of 'famous names' in the face of steep competition isn't
restricted to hifi gear. I believe it's the inevitable consequence of
manufacturers try to retain a significant percentage of the available market
without fully understanding the radical changes needed to be able to keep up
('parts bin/existing designs' thinking for a start). The question is are
companies like ML and Krell in a healthy position? If so, I don't see any
problem - not everyone is impoverished scum and not everyone wants their
converted lofts/penthouses/yachts sullied with the *cheapest* kit that'll
get the job done....

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Remotes are good also....

Keith G wrote:
"Serge Auckland" wrote

As Don said, as far as sound quality goes, almost any modern piece of
electronics will sound the same when you don't know the brand. Buy on
facilities and looks, as hopefully you'll be living with it a long time.

Having said that, high-end equipment isn't just about performance, looks
and build-quality come into it a great deal. ML equipment, as is Krell,
MF, Audio Research etc etc are very well built, perform superbly, are well
engineered and therefore are "good". They have achieved Brand values that
allows them to charge premium prices which other brands can't. I remember
years ago Sony, Technics, JVC and others had a "premium" range selling at
similar prices to other High-End brands and which I'm sure was just as
good, but very few shops carried them and enthusiasts shunned them. Their
Brand just couldn't carry the price.

So the earlier advice seems sound. There's nothing wrong with ML, and they
are well built etc, *but* performance-wise, you can get the same for a
*lot* less money.



The demise of 'famous names' in the face of steep competition isn't
restricted to hifi gear. I believe it's the inevitable consequence of
manufacturers try to retain a significant percentage of the available market
without fully understanding the radical changes needed to be able to keep up
('parts bin/existing designs' thinking for a start). The question is are
companies like ML and Krell in a healthy position? If so, I don't see any
problem - not everyone is impoverished scum and not everyone wants their
converted lofts/penthouses/yachts sullied with the *cheapest* kit that'll
get the job done....

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Remotes are good also....



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural,
aesthetic (choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with sound
quality which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a very high
order. Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end from the
"normal" stuff is the machined-out-of-solid casework, turntables that
could easily hold up the Parthenon, 'speakers that could *be* the
Parthenon and so on. It's moved on from a quest for audio "perfection"
to something that enhances the decor, becomes a talking point with
visitors, or is just pleasing to look at. Much like a statue, painting
or any other objet d'art.

S.

"Serge Auckland" wrote



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural, aesthetic
(choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with sound quality
which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a very high order.
Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end from the "normal" stuff
is the machined-out-of-solid casework, turntables that could easily hold
up the Parthenon, 'speakers that could *be* the Parthenon and so on. It's
moved on from a quest for audio "perfection" to something that enhances
the decor, becomes a talking point with visitors, or is just pleasing to
look at. Much like a statue, painting or any other objet d'art.


Absolutely, but is it really such a bad thing?

There's a scale (passing through good VFM) from cheap crap to OTT bling in
all things manufactured/purchased - food, clothing, furniture, tools, sports
equipment &c, but my favourite analogy for hifi is the subject of cars -
nowadays, they mostly all do the job they are designed for pretty well and
they are within the scope of anybody who is old enough to drive (more's the
pity). Cheaper models now have all the features that used to be only on the
most expensive marques and its up to the individual (and his
requirements/resources) as to what he spends his money on. (Apologies to the
Grammar Police...) In both cars and hifi, it's the top end of the market
that sets the standards and it's only a good thing when the cheaper (VFM)
stuff catches up, IMO...

There is no *need* to buy the biggest/best that money can afford and there
will be occasions and circumstances when this wouldn't be the best way
forward anyway, but the choice is there for anyone sufficiently interested
in it or whose lifestyle (and social standing?) requires it. POQ differs
with the individual and, although I probably would not go for silly-priced
gear myself, even if I could afford it, I don't blame anyone who does if
they don't have to sell a kidney to get it.

(Interestingly, it seems a common thing for the hoi polloi to scream
at/about those who do choose to spend at the 'bling' end of the spectrum but
I have yet to hear a 'bling purchaser' do the same to the people buying the
cheaper stuff...??)

There was a time when good 'hifi' sound was the exclusive province of people
like 'surveyors', bank managers and dentists (Quad Squad), the irony is that
now anyone can afford it seems they've let the standards of the
recorded/broadcast music *itself* go to the point where the 'quality' of the
kit matters less now than it ever did, provided the kit has enough poke to
get the sound levels high enough..!!

Just my toupee.....

Keith G wrote:
snip

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)


Blue LEDs - it's the future Keith; don't resist :-)

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
snip

(Unlike me, but then my kit isn't trying to be *furniture* or trying to
impress anybody other than by its *sound*....)

Having said that, I am nearing the end of my own 'audio quest' and have
proved I can get a pretty good sound from fairly basic kit and some
homebrew - any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward'
nature to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits
and mebbe a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)


Blue LEDs - it's the future Keith; don't resist :-)



I know, I know!!

I wanted a pair of jimjams with blue LED buttons on for Christmas but didn't
get them:

a) I'm ahead of myself and they don't exist yet...

b) Changed my mind anyway - don't want to start a trend/mad rush and add
further to the planet's *global warming* problems!!

;-)

any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and mebbe
a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Hi Keith

How about some laser lights shining around on the ceiling while the
music plays?

David