On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:55:33 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG


1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)?

Looks like first order.


OK.



2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized
mid/bass unit with good effect?
Yes to the first part of this question, and possibly to the second part.
It looks like this crossover has a 3.3 ohm resistor in series with the
tweeter, presumably to balance the level with the woofer. I would say this
is done with two specific drive units in mind.


Hmm, well it's in for a shock then....




3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the
drivers?

Should make much difference as box size effects the bass end, and the
crossover works in the middle.


The box won't be too dissimilar in terms of internal volume, I think....




4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly?

Yes, it will work this way, but to me it looks upside-down with the +
terminal being the common terminal. By convention, it is the negative
that's common, but it *is* only by convention.

How do we know electrons are negatively charged. That's only relative to
protons..........



I only know it because I tend to believe what I'm told 'til I can *prove*
otherwise!! ;-)



Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem
which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning*
anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one
way or another.....

;-)

Particularly effective for setting cartridge tracking.


:-)


OK, another one if you and/or Don are up for it.

What about this one:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2A.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2B.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2C.JPG


It don't look too convincing to me (can't really see any values on the bits
better than in the pix - it's still connected) - which would you use for
messing about with (piling spare drivers into a different box on a 'suck it
and see' basis)...??

Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but
that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on
ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the
magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of
making a crossover choke.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote


Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but
that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on
ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the
magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of
making a crossover choke.


OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover:

No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG


The game plan is as follows:

Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG

which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other
spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the
drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


(Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me
cannabalising them!)


The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely
with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving
Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible
reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary)
until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew'
standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the
price.....

;-)

(Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!)

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:01:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote


Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but
that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on
ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the
magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of
making a crossover choke.


OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover:

No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG

No, it was too hard to trace from those, but assume they were built on
advice from the driver makers, and they are basically OK.


The game plan is as follows:

Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG

which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other
spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the
drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG


OK, if you are telling me they lack bass, I will certainly believe
you!

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info,
particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box
design.


(Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me
cannabalising them!)


The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely
with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving
Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible
reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary)
until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew'
standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the
price.....

;-)

(Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!)



I don't think you will get much joy by simply putting them in that
other box; the chances of it being the right size are pretty remote.
And then of course there is the port design to consider. I'll keep on
looking, though.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info,
particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box
design.

Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the
part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers.
If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the
original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info,
particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box
design.

Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the
part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers.
If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress.



OK, Rob has kindly given me a Ticket To Ride so I'll get amongst 'em
tomorrow with a bit of luck! (****, I'll be glad when Swim ****es off to
work again - she's been on holiday for a month now and my totally
self-absorbed routine is shot to ****!!)

Anyway, by way of appreciation for yours and Serge's kind assistance, here's
a little treat for you:

You may well have heard plenty of music which is a load of balls, well here
is a load of balls which is music:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...al%20Balls.wmv

Enjoy! :-)

(Never mind ports - fancy *tuning* that lot..?? ;-)

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the
original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info,
particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box
design.

Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the
part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers.
If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress.



OK, skinning the rabbit(s) another way.....

I've taken the Ruark woofers (Vifa units, crude as **** to look at and 8
ohms apparently) out of the speakers I had put them in (Meraks) to replace
the ones a 'high current' Parasound amp had boiled up some time back and
dropped the Seas units in. The Vifas were good, the Seas are gooder - sounds
very nice and very 'bouncy' in the bass!! (Well usable for ss/digital I
would have thought and I doubt anybody would fault them as such - playing
right now: Yello 'The Eye' and they sound fine to me...)

Phase One complete.

Now for Phase Two:

I will now put the Ruark/Vifa woofers back in their own boxes (to keep all
the critics quiet about the TS stuff) and, using the Ruark crossover, will
fit the T27s in place of the Vifa tweets which were fried one night when
Shiny Nigel was round! That way I get 2 pairs of speakers from Rob's 1 pair
which (sorry Rob) were not even as good in the bass as the above-mentioned
Meraks!!

Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck
anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences
of the same type and size are almost neglible...??

OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!!
:-)

Mora non....

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the
original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info,
particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box
design.

Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the
part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers.
If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress.



OK, skinning the rabbit(s) another way.....

I've taken the Ruark woofers (Vifa units, crude as **** to look at and 8
ohms apparently) out of the speakers I had put them in (Meraks) to replace
the ones a 'high current' Parasound amp had boiled up some time back and
dropped the Seas units in. The Vifas were good, the Seas are gooder - sounds
very nice and very 'bouncy' in the bass!! (Well usable for ss/digital I
would have thought and I doubt anybody would fault them as such - playing
right now: Yello 'The Eye' and they sound fine to me...)

Phase One complete.

Now for Phase Two:

I will now put the Ruark/Vifa woofers back in their own boxes (to keep all
the critics quiet about the TS stuff) and, using the Ruark crossover, will
fit the T27s in place of the Vifa tweets which were fried one night when
Shiny Nigel was round! That way I get 2 pairs of speakers from Rob's 1 pair
which (sorry Rob) were not even as good in the bass as the above-mentioned
Meraks!!

Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck
anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences
of the same type and size are almost neglible...??

OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!!
:-)

Mora non....



When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a
fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the
same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency
between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway.

I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the
important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower
than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you
should be pretty safe with the T27s though.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck
anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences
of the same type and size are almost neglible...??

OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit
*gynaecological*......!!
:-)

Mora non....



When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a
fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the
same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency
between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway.



OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do
sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later....



I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the
important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower
than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you
should be pretty safe with the T27s though.



Right, hint of 'non-peachyness' creeping in to the equation - scrute these
pix:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic01.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic02.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic03.JPG

and you will see:

1) Sawdust everywhere 'cos one of the Seas drivers dropped in to the other
speakers reet lovely and the other one rocked a bit and had to be 'let in' a
tad!

2) The Vifa woofer looking smug - back *home*...

3) That the Vifa tweeter is only 6 oms...!!??

Now, is '3' going to represent a big problem crossoverwise? - I'm intending
to use the original Ruark crossover and the T27 is 8 ohms, as you can
see/already knew....

My money's on them sounding OK, but I don't know what to expect from the
T27's higher rating - 'vanishingly' less treble? A small but devastating
explosion? Loss of libido....?? Dry skin...??

Incidentally, when I fried the tweeter I contacted Ruark and some old dear
told me I got *no chance* of a replacement - old model and all the bloody
drivers (Focal, Dynaudio, Vifa in various models, to my knowledge) are
non-standard, 'Ruark tweaked' apparently!! I asked about using a 'near miss'
tweeter and got a *telephone shrug*...!! :-)

Keith G wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote


Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but
that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on
ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the
magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of
making a crossover choke.


OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover:

No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG


The game plan is as follows:

Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG

which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other
spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the
drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG

as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original
drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG


(Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me
cannabalising them!)


Go for it Keith!

They are my firstborn - I auditioned them in a Nottingham hifi shop in
1982 next to some AR18s and Wharfedale wotnots. I loved them for quite a
while - superb upper bass/mid and a nice treble from the T27s. I found
deep bass fine - certainly better than the other smallish budget
speakers of the time. The make is/was LNB, and they were about 100UKP (I
paid 40; mean then as now). On bass - check they're wired properly from
the xover to the terminals. I lent them to a friend for about 5 years,
and he fiddled about with them and put some different terminals on. When
I got them back they sounded terrible - on closer investigation he'd
wired them up incorrectly. I may have buggered that up as well ;-)



The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely
with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving
Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible
reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary)
until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew'
standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the
price.....

;-)

(Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!)


Live the dream Keith :-)

You can bin them so far as I'm concerned. I thought you might be
interested in the xovers and the T27s. I thought the design was
intriguing (a compact transmission line) at the time, but in the real
world they can't hold a candle to Dynaudio 42s IMO. One last lease of
life in '25th Anniversary Edition' guise won't hurt :-)

Rob

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



(Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me
cannabalising them!)


Go for it Keith!


Cheers Rob!

:-)



They are my firstborn - I auditioned them in a Nottingham hifi shop in
1982 next to some AR18s and Wharfedale wotnots. I loved them for quite a
while - superb upper bass/mid and a nice treble from the T27s. I found
deep bass fine - certainly better than the other smallish budget speakers
of the time. The make is/was LNB, and they were about 100UKP (I paid 40;
mean then as now). On bass - check they're wired properly from the xover
to the terminals. I lent them to a friend for about 5 years, and he
fiddled about with them and put some different terminals on. When I got
them back they sounded terrible - on closer investigation he'd wired them
up incorrectly. I may have buggered that up as well ;-)


For now I'll just lift the drivers to try them in the gash rig I intend
trying!

(Reversible, if need be, in the short term...!!)


(Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!)


Live the dream Keith :-)

You can bin them so far as I'm concerned. I thought you might be
interested in the xovers and the T27s. I thought the design was intriguing
(a compact transmission line) at the time, but in the real world they
can't hold a candle to Dynaudio 42s IMO. One last lease of life in '25th
Anniversary Edition' guise won't hurt :-)



It'll be interesting to try and get a decent get a squeak out of 'em - I'm
never one to let science stand in the way of a bit of 'trilanerra' but the
only way I could ever learn is by doing/sweeping up the mess/doing again &c.
&c....!!

;-)