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Crossover questions.....
OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... ;-) |
Crossover questions.....
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:58:23 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... That's a first order crossover, plus some assorted other stuff. Basically, the woofer is fed through that big choke. Is there a value printed on it anywhere? The 4.7ohm and 12MFD at the bottom appear to be there to keep the impedance of the woofer tidy out of band - they won't do anything particular to the sound. The tweeter is fed by the blue cap at the top - can't see the value of that either. The two parallel resistors will drop the level to the tweeter, so presumably in the original design the tweeter was more sensitive than the woofer. You've marked up OK, but without those two vital values, it is impossible to judge their applicability. As for boxes - fine, this is a standard crossover design, and it should work in most cases. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? Looks like first order. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? Yes to the first part of this question, and possibly to the second part. It looks like this crossover has a 3.3 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter, presumably to balance the level with the woofer. I would say this is done with two specific drive units in mind. 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? Should make much difference as box size effects the bass end, and the crossover works in the middle. 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Yes, it will work this way, but to me it looks upside-down with the + terminal being the common terminal. By convention, it is the negative that's common, but it *is* only by convention. How do we know electrons are negatively charged. That's only relative to protons.......... Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... ;-) Particularly effective for setting cartridge tracking. S. |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:58:23 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... That's a first order crossover, plus some assorted other stuff. I thought there were too many 'bits' for a 1st Order crossover!! (Shows what I know....! ;-) Basically, the woofer is fed through that big choke. Is there a value printed on it anywhere? No, the choke has no markings on it at all. The 4.7ohm and 12MFD at the bottom appear to be there to keep the impedance of the woofer tidy out of band - they won't do anything particular to the sound. The tweeter is fed by the blue cap at the top - can't see the value of that either. The cap is marked '8 MFD and 50 VNP'.... (VNP...??) The two parallel resistors will drop the level to the tweeter, so presumably in the original design the tweeter was more sensitive than the woofer. No idea - Vifa units (Ruark Sabres). The tweeters have been fried and the woofers are doing stirling work in another box which sounds pretty good!! You've marked up OK, but without those two vital values, it is impossible to judge their applicability. As for boxes - fine, this is a standard crossover design, and it should work in most cases. OK Don, - thanks for that - I've marked it 'fit for purpose' and will proceed blindly, as intended...!! :-) |
Crossover questions.....
(VNP...??)
50V non-polar? cheers, Ian |
Crossover questions.....
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? Looks like first order. OK. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? Yes to the first part of this question, and possibly to the second part. It looks like this crossover has a 3.3 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter, presumably to balance the level with the woofer. I would say this is done with two specific drive units in mind. Hmm, well it's in for a shock then.... 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? Should make much difference as box size effects the bass end, and the crossover works in the middle. The box won't be too dissimilar in terms of internal volume, I think.... 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Yes, it will work this way, but to me it looks upside-down with the + terminal being the common terminal. By convention, it is the negative that's common, but it *is* only by convention. How do we know electrons are negatively charged. That's only relative to protons.......... I only know it because I tend to believe what I'm told 'til I can *prove* otherwise!! ;-) Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... ;-) Particularly effective for setting cartridge tracking. :-) OK, another one if you and/or Don are up for it. What about this one: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2A.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2B.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2C.JPG It don't look too convincing to me (can't really see any values on the bits better than in the pix - it's still connected) - which would you use for messing about with (piling spare drivers into a different box on a 'suck it and see' basis)...?? Atm, my garage/workshop is heaving with various speakers in various stages of disarray and I need to get it sorted: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...sgraveyard.JPG :-) |
Crossover questions.....
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:55:33 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? Looks like first order. OK. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? Yes to the first part of this question, and possibly to the second part. It looks like this crossover has a 3.3 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter, presumably to balance the level with the woofer. I would say this is done with two specific drive units in mind. Hmm, well it's in for a shock then.... 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? Should make much difference as box size effects the bass end, and the crossover works in the middle. The box won't be too dissimilar in terms of internal volume, I think.... 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Yes, it will work this way, but to me it looks upside-down with the + terminal being the common terminal. By convention, it is the negative that's common, but it *is* only by convention. How do we know electrons are negatively charged. That's only relative to protons.......... I only know it because I tend to believe what I'm told 'til I can *prove* otherwise!! ;-) Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... ;-) Particularly effective for setting cartridge tracking. :-) OK, another one if you and/or Don are up for it. What about this one: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2A.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2B.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2C.JPG It don't look too convincing to me (can't really see any values on the bits better than in the pix - it's still connected) - which would you use for messing about with (piling spare drivers into a different box on a 'suck it and see' basis)...?? Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover: No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG The game plan is as follows: Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG (Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me cannabalising them!) The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary) until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew' standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the price..... ;-) (Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!) |
Crossover questions.....
Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:55:33 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? Looks like first order. OK. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? Yes to the first part of this question, and possibly to the second part. It looks like this crossover has a 3.3 ohm resistor in series with the tweeter, presumably to balance the level with the woofer. I would say this is done with two specific drive units in mind. Hmm, well it's in for a shock then.... 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? Should make much difference as box size effects the bass end, and the crossover works in the middle. The box won't be too dissimilar in terms of internal volume, I think.... 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Yes, it will work this way, but to me it looks upside-down with the + terminal being the common terminal. By convention, it is the negative that's common, but it *is* only by convention. How do we know electrons are negatively charged. That's only relative to protons.......... I only know it because I tend to believe what I'm told 'til I can *prove* otherwise!! ;-) Apologies if these questions are a bit simplistic - I have a bone problem which prevents me reading reams of techie stuff (and actually *learning* anything) when a swift thump with a hammer will sort most things out, one way or another..... ;-) Particularly effective for setting cartridge tracking. :-) OK, another one if you and/or Don are up for it. What about this one: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2A.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2B.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover2C.JPG It don't look too convincing to me (can't really see any values on the bits better than in the pix - it's still connected) - which would you use for messing about with (piling spare drivers into a different box on a 'suck it and see' basis)...?? Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. d Completely agree. S. |
Crossover questions.....
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:01:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover: No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG No, it was too hard to trace from those, but assume they were built on advice from the driver makers, and they are basically OK. The game plan is as follows: Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG OK, if you are telling me they lack bass, I will certainly believe you! as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info, particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box design. (Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me cannabalising them!) The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary) until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew' standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the price..... ;-) (Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!) I don't think you will get much joy by simply putting them in that other box; the chances of it being the right size are pretty remote. And then of course there is the port design to consider. I'll keep on looking, though. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. OK, here's a pic of both sides of that crossover: No, here's a couple of pix showing each side of that crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/topside.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/underside.JPG The game plan is as follows: Dr Rob very kindly gave me these speakers http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/donor.JPG which sound fine but are easily beat by most (all, actually) of the other spreakers I have here, due to a lack of any bass at all. I want to pull the drivers (T27s and H3310s) out of 'em and use them in these boxes: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/boxes.JPG as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG (Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me cannabalising them!) Go for it Keith! They are my firstborn - I auditioned them in a Nottingham hifi shop in 1982 next to some AR18s and Wharfedale wotnots. I loved them for quite a while - superb upper bass/mid and a nice treble from the T27s. I found deep bass fine - certainly better than the other smallish budget speakers of the time. The make is/was LNB, and they were about 100UKP (I paid 40; mean then as now). On bass - check they're wired properly from the xover to the terminals. I lent them to a friend for about 5 years, and he fiddled about with them and put some different terminals on. When I got them back they sounded terrible - on closer investigation he'd wired them up incorrectly. I may have buggered that up as well ;-) The idea is to fit the drivers into the boxes (which I will modify hugely with a second skin and some crossbracing) using the Ruark crossover, leaving Rob's 'donor' speakers as intact as possible (for a possible reversal/restoration) and trying a few different drivers (if necessary) until I can convince myself I have a pair of unique, stunning 'homebrew' standmounters that blow away any commercial equivalent at many times the price..... ;-) (Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!) Live the dream Keith :-) You can bin them so far as I'm concerned. I thought you might be interested in the xovers and the T27s. I thought the design was intriguing (a compact transmission line) at the time, but in the real world they can't hold a candle to Dynaudio 42s IMO. One last lease of life in '25th Anniversary Edition' guise won't hurt :-) Rob |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote: as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info, particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box design. Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers. If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress. OK, Rob has kindly given me a Ticket To Ride so I'll get amongst 'em tomorrow with a bit of luck! (****, I'll be glad when Swim ****es off to work again - she's been on holiday for a month now and my totally self-absorbed routine is shot to ****!!) Anyway, by way of appreciation for yours and Serge's kind assistance, here's a little treat for you: You may well have heard plenty of music which is a load of balls, well here is a load of balls which is music: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...al%20Balls.wmv Enjoy! :-) (Never mind ports - fancy *tuning* that lot..?? ;-) |
Crossover questions.....
"Rob" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: (Rob - speak now if you would rather have these back instead of me cannabalising them!) Go for it Keith! Cheers Rob! :-) They are my firstborn - I auditioned them in a Nottingham hifi shop in 1982 next to some AR18s and Wharfedale wotnots. I loved them for quite a while - superb upper bass/mid and a nice treble from the T27s. I found deep bass fine - certainly better than the other smallish budget speakers of the time. The make is/was LNB, and they were about 100UKP (I paid 40; mean then as now). On bass - check they're wired properly from the xover to the terminals. I lent them to a friend for about 5 years, and he fiddled about with them and put some different terminals on. When I got them back they sounded terrible - on closer investigation he'd wired them up incorrectly. I may have buggered that up as well ;-) For now I'll just lift the drivers to try them in the gash rig I intend trying! (Reversible, if need be, in the short term...!!) (Or find, for only a little work, if I'm ****ing in the breeze!!) Live the dream Keith :-) You can bin them so far as I'm concerned. I thought you might be interested in the xovers and the T27s. I thought the design was intriguing (a compact transmission line) at the time, but in the real world they can't hold a candle to Dynaudio 42s IMO. One last lease of life in '25th Anniversary Edition' guise won't hurt :-) It'll be interesting to try and get a decent get a squeak out of 'em - I'm never one to let science stand in the way of a bit of 'trilanerra' but the only way I could ever learn is by doing/sweeping up the mess/doing again &c. &c....!! ;-) |
Crossover questions.....
Serge Auckland wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. Completely agree. Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? -- Eiron. |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? It looks like first order with impedance compensation on the bass. The bass unit is probably 4 ohms. First order on the HF as well with about 3dBs attenuation. The tweeter is 8 ohms. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? You haven't got a hope in hell. You are doomed to disappointment. 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? Yes, but in the context of what you are trying to do, it's irrelevant. 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? Probably, but without knowing what the system is, it's impossible to say. The Veroboard construction of the other crossovers should tell you something. I'd guess that Falcon Acoustics supplied the components. Stephen |
Crossover questions.....
Eiron wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. Completely agree. Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? The difference between ferrite and air is the magnetic flux that each coil can take before saturating. Ferrite is used as it results in smaller coils and can use thinner wire for the same resistance or keep the same thickness and have lower resistance and hence better Q. The downside is that it takes a lot to saturate air whilst ferrite is relatively easily saturated. I'll see if I can find my old college notes regarding the actual differences. S. |
Crossover questions.....
Eiron wrote:
Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? The distortion of ferrite cored inductors is measurable. Air cored coils don't distort. Stephen |
Crossover questions.....
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 20:25:18 +0000, Eiron wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. Completely agree. Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? I can't think of any, but the signal levels involved are similar to those in valve output transformers - think how big they have to be to achieve even their limited degree of linearity. The parallel is not exact, of course, because these are rods, not closed cores, so in essence they incorporate a huge air gap. Nevertheless you are dragging the magnetic flux up and down the standard B/H curve of a piece of magnetic material, and that just can't be as good as using plain air. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Keith G" wrote in message ... OK, some techie questions regarding this crossover: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/crossover1.JPG 1) Anybody care to tell me what order it is (seems pretty basic to me)? **First order, with a Zobel on the bass driver. 2) Can I slap it between just about any tweeter and similar sized mid/bass unit with good effect? **Nope. Well, unless you are really, REALLY lucky. Figure on about a 1 in 100,000 shot of getting an excellent result. 3) Will a different box size have any bearing on how it works with the drivers? **A little. 4) Have I marked up the driver connections correctly? **Possibly. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Crossover questions.....
Don Pearce wrote:
Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? Doesn't look like it to me, they've just use a plastic tranformer former (there's nothing inside) |
Crossover questions.....
Eiron wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. Completely agree. Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? I can't find the detail I was hoping to amongst my notes (even Noakes wasn't a lot of help), but I found the following explanation (I've edited it for space) on the University of Surrey's website Saturation Saturation is a limitation occurring in inductors having a ferromagnetic core. Initially, as current is increased the flux increases in proportion to it. At some point, however, further increases in current lead to progressively smaller increases in flux. Eventually, the core can make no further contribution to flux growth and any increase thereafter is limited to that provided by μ0 - perhaps three orders of magnitude smaller. Iron saturates at about 1.6 T while ferrites will normally saturate between about 200 mT and 500 mT. It is usually essential to avoid reaching saturation since it is accompanied by a drop in inductance. In many circuits the rate at which current in the coil increases is inversely proportional to inductance (I = V * T / L). Any drop in inductance therefore causes the current to rise faster, increasing the field strength and so the core is driven even further into saturation. Core manufacturers normally specify the saturation flux density for the particular material used. Although saturation is mostly a risk in high power circuits it is still a possibility in 'small signal' applications having many turns on an ungapped core and a DC bias (such as the collector current of a transistor). If you find that saturation is likely then you might - * Run the inductor at a lower current * Use a larger core * Alter the number of turns * Use a core with a lower permeability * Use a core with an air gap or some combination thereof - but you'll need to re-calculate the design in any case. ............................end................... .................. Consequently, if you want to avoid the risk of saturation, you use an air-cored inductor which has a much lower permeability than ferrite or iron. S. |
Crossover questions.....
"Eiron" wrote in message ... Serge Auckland wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Without being able to trace the circuits I can't say for definite, but that looks like a second order crossover. Are those chokes wound on ferrite? If they are, this crossover has a power limit set by the magnetic saturation of the ferrite. Your other one is a better way of making a crossover choke. Completely agree. Are there any real test results showing the difference between air and ferrite cored inductors in a crossover or is it another evanescent chalk and cheese effect? **There are big differences, but it depends on the specs of the ferrite. In one case I worked on, the manufacturer shipped a batch of speakers, with the wrong type of ferrite fitted. Saturation occurred at around 6 VRMS. Since the speakers were 4 Ohm types, this corresponded to around 10 Watts input power. Complaints began arriving that the speakers distorted at modest power levels. A quick sine wave test confirmed the problem. Replacement with equivalent resistance air core inductors solved the problem. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote: as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info, particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box design. Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers. If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress. OK, skinning the rabbit(s) another way..... I've taken the Ruark woofers (Vifa units, crude as **** to look at and 8 ohms apparently) out of the speakers I had put them in (Meraks) to replace the ones a 'high current' Parasound amp had boiled up some time back and dropped the Seas units in. The Vifas were good, the Seas are gooder - sounds very nice and very 'bouncy' in the bass!! (Well usable for ss/digital I would have thought and I doubt anybody would fault them as such - playing right now: Yello 'The Eye' and they sound fine to me...) Phase One complete. Now for Phase Two: I will now put the Ruark/Vifa woofers back in their own boxes (to keep all the critics quiet about the TS stuff) and, using the Ruark crossover, will fit the T27s in place of the Vifa tweets which were fried one night when Shiny Nigel was round! That way I get 2 pairs of speakers from Rob's 1 pair which (sorry Rob) were not even as good in the bass as the above-mentioned Meraks!! Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences of the same type and size are almost neglible...?? OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!! :-) Mora non.... |
Crossover questions.....
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:20:24 GMT, (Don Pearce) wrote: as they are a little larger and have easy, front access - see the original drivers on a nice, easily removed front baffle he http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/originals.JPG H3310s looks like a Seas pat number, but I can't find any info, particularly the TS parameters, so I can't offer any help on box design. Ah - quite by chance I find that H3310s is not a driver, it is the part number for the rubber surround, which is used on several drivers. If you can find another part number somewhere, we might progress. OK, skinning the rabbit(s) another way..... I've taken the Ruark woofers (Vifa units, crude as **** to look at and 8 ohms apparently) out of the speakers I had put them in (Meraks) to replace the ones a 'high current' Parasound amp had boiled up some time back and dropped the Seas units in. The Vifas were good, the Seas are gooder - sounds very nice and very 'bouncy' in the bass!! (Well usable for ss/digital I would have thought and I doubt anybody would fault them as such - playing right now: Yello 'The Eye' and they sound fine to me...) Phase One complete. Now for Phase Two: I will now put the Ruark/Vifa woofers back in their own boxes (to keep all the critics quiet about the TS stuff) and, using the Ruark crossover, will fit the T27s in place of the Vifa tweets which were fried one night when Shiny Nigel was round! That way I get 2 pairs of speakers from Rob's 1 pair which (sorry Rob) were not even as good in the bass as the above-mentioned Meraks!! Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences of the same type and size are almost neglible...?? OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!! :-) Mora non.... When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway. I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you should be pretty safe with the T27s though. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences of the same type and size are almost neglible...?? OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!! :-) Mora non.... When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway. OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you should be pretty safe with the T27s though. Right, hint of 'non-peachyness' creeping in to the equation - scrute these pix: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic01.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic02.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic03.JPG and you will see: 1) Sawdust everywhere 'cos one of the Seas drivers dropped in to the other speakers reet lovely and the other one rocked a bit and had to be 'let in' a tad! 2) The Vifa woofer looking smug - back *home*... 3) That the Vifa tweeter is only 6 oms...!!?? Now, is '3' going to represent a big problem crossoverwise? - I'm intending to use the original Ruark crossover and the T27 is 8 ohms, as you can see/already knew.... My money's on them sounding OK, but I don't know what to expect from the T27's higher rating - 'vanishingly' less treble? A small but devastating explosion? Loss of libido....?? Dry skin...?? Incidentally, when I fried the tweeter I contacted Ruark and some old dear told me I got *no chance* of a replacement - old model and all the bloody drivers (Focal, Dynaudio, Vifa in various models, to my knowledge) are non-standard, 'Ruark tweaked' apparently!! I asked about using a 'near miss' tweeter and got a *telephone shrug*...!! :-) |
Crossover questions.....
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:59:10 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences of the same type and size are almost neglible...?? OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!! :-) Mora non.... When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway. OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you should be pretty safe with the T27s though. Right, hint of 'non-peachyness' creeping in to the equation - scrute these pix: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic01.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic02.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic03.JPG and you will see: 1) Sawdust everywhere 'cos one of the Seas drivers dropped in to the other speakers reet lovely and the other one rocked a bit and had to be 'let in' a tad! 2) The Vifa woofer looking smug - back *home*... 3) That the Vifa tweeter is only 6 oms...!!?? Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. Now, is '3' going to represent a big problem crossoverwise? - I'm intending to use the original Ruark crossover and the T27 is 8 ohms, as you can see/already knew.... Nope, don't worry about that. My money's on them sounding OK, but I don't know what to expect from the T27's higher rating - 'vanishingly' less treble? A small but devastating explosion? Loss of libido....?? Dry skin...?? Incidentally, when I fried the tweeter I contacted Ruark and some old dear told me I got *no chance* of a replacement - old model and all the bloody drivers (Focal, Dynaudio, Vifa in various models, to my knowledge) are non-standard, 'Ruark tweaked' apparently!! I asked about using a 'near miss' tweeter and got a *telephone shrug*...!! :-) A shrug is all you will get from anyone. For sure they are going to work a sight better than a busted pair of Vifas - although it may be worth your while seeing f they can be fixed. They're rated and worth money. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
Don Pearce wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:59:10 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:06:14 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: Now, am I just hitting lucky so far or can you really *not* just chuck anything about the same size in? Also, I am suspecting tweeter differences of the same type and size are almost neglible...?? OK, we'll see - not so easy now, it's getting a bit *gynaecological*......!! :-) Mora non.... When you have drivers of the same size and general type, you've got a fighting chance that their resonances will fall at somewhere near the same frequency, and that is what matters. The tolerance of frequency between two drivers that are nominally the same is pretty wide anyway. OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... I don't know the difference between the T27s and the Vifas, but the important thing with tweeters is not to give them stuff that is lower than they can cope with - that is the road to early death. I think you should be pretty safe with the T27s though. Right, hint of 'non-peachyness' creeping in to the equation - scrute these pix: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic01.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic02.JPG http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tweeterpic03.JPG and you will see: 1) Sawdust everywhere 'cos one of the Seas drivers dropped in to the other speakers reet lovely and the other one rocked a bit and had to be 'let in' a tad! 2) The Vifa woofer looking smug - back *home*... 3) That the Vifa tweeter is only 6 oms...!!?? Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. Now, is '3' going to represent a big problem crossoverwise? - I'm intending to use the original Ruark crossover and the T27 is 8 ohms, as you can see/already knew.... Nope, don't worry about that. My money's on them sounding OK, but I don't know what to expect from the T27's higher rating - 'vanishingly' less treble? A small but devastating explosion? Loss of libido....?? Dry skin...?? Incidentally, when I fried the tweeter I contacted Ruark and some old dear told me I got *no chance* of a replacement - old model and all the bloody drivers (Focal, Dynaudio, Vifa in various models, to my knowledge) are non-standard, 'Ruark tweaked' apparently!! I asked about using a 'near miss' tweeter and got a *telephone shrug*...!! :-) A shrug is all you will get from anyone. For sure they are going to work a sight better than a busted pair of Vifas - although it may be worth your while seeing f they can be fixed. They're rated and worth money. d Apart from good old Wilmslow, drive units including tweeters can be repaired/reconed by http://www.loudspeakersonline.com/re....new/index.htm They say a typical tweeter recone costs £30. Interestingly, I can't find any reference to the D25.TG-85 tweeter on the Vifa web site, so maybe it was produced only as an OEM item. S. S. |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. That I don't get - a higher impedance will result in a *louder* sound...?? Now, is '3' going to represent a big problem crossoverwise? - I'm intending to use the original Ruark crossover and the T27 is 8 ohms, as you can see/already knew.... Nope, don't worry about that. OK. A shrug is all you will get from anyone. For sure they are going to work a sight better than a busted pair of Vifas - although it may be worth your while seeing f they can be fixed. They're rated and worth money. Glad you said that, I was going to *investigate* the innards at the end of all this!! Carpetting the Ruark boxes now - the messy bit, I stick it in with Unibond!! (*Insides*, of course...!! ;-) |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. That I don't get - a higher impedance will result in a *louder* sound...?? No, all other things being equal, a higher impedance will draw less power and so produce a lower sound level. One reason why 'speaker manufacturers like to use 6 ohm drive units is that it gives them a bit of extra sensitivity over 8 ohm rivals, but without becoming too strenuous a load for more modest amplifiers which they could well do if they went for 4 ohm drivers. S. |
Crossover questions.....
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:43:42 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. That I don't get - a higher impedance will result in a *louder* sound...?? Sorry - got the which and the what back to front. Softer - so you probably won't need those resistors. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Keith G" wrote OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... **WOT A ****!!!** **WOT A PLONKA!!** I've just gone to switch over to the radio (CD's finished and I'm off down the garage again) and, as I was passing, twigged the bloody speakers that have been on all this time while the CD was player were my bloody *Pinkies*!!! (Amp's got A and B buttons for speaker output switching!) :-) :-)) :-))) Anyway, I switched over and yes the newly-fettled jobbies do sound good but it means I haven't really heard them yet! (Couldn't fekkin' script it could ya, but what a nice reaffirmation on the Pinkies - even better than asking the milkman!! :-) |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:43:42 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: Well, the Vifa is often recommended as an upgrade for the T27, so I really wouldn't be too fussed about the impedance difference. Just be prepared for it to be a bit on the loud side, though - you may need a series resistor yet. That I don't get - a higher impedance will result in a *louder* sound...?? Sorry - got the which and the what back to front. Softer - so you probably won't need those resistors. OK. Just finished (I'm knackered!) and here is the lineup now: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/lineup.JPG Rob's tweeters are in the Sabres (top) which now have their own woofers back in and their own crossovers. They have been fully carpetted, the (larger) T27 tweeters have been let in and new 'lambswool' stuffing put in. The Meraks (bottom) now have Rob's woofers, their own tweeters and their own crossovers (untouched) with no other work done other than 'easing' one of the holes for a 'tight woofer'.... I've literally only just got in and have heard maybe 5 minutes of A/B'ing of both of them and I think they both sound very good - different, but still good. If you are about Don, nominate a track I'm bound to have and I'll grab a snatch from each of them for a 'comparison' (as far as is possible) - otherwise, it'll be a Milladoiro track!! |
Crossover questions.....
"Keith G" wrote I've literally only just got in and have heard maybe 5 minutes of A/B'ing of both of them and I think they both sound very good - different, but still good. If you are about Don, nominate a track I'm bound to have and I'll grab a snatch from each of them for a 'comparison' (as far as is possible) - otherwise, it'll be a Milladoiro track!! OK, Don's sloped off for an early night! (Bless.... :-) Here's the Milladoira clips I threatened then, on this setup: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/recordingsetup.JPG (Sabres on top...) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20B.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20B.mp3 Quite different really, but neither is unpleasant in its own way (recording restraints notwithstanding) and either is easy enough to get used to....??? (Must be me - WTF do I know..?? ;-) |
Crossover questions.....
"Serge Auckland" wrote in message ... Don Pearce wrote: A shrug is all you will get from anyone. For sure they are going to work a sight better than a busted pair of Vifas - although it may be worth your while seeing f they can be fixed. They're rated and worth money. d Apart from good old Wilmslow, drive units including tweeters can be repaired/reconed by http://www.loudspeakersonline.com/re....new/index.htm They say a typical tweeter recone costs £30. Interestingly, I can't find any reference to the D25.TG-85 tweeter on the Vifa web site, so maybe it was produced only as an OEM item. I mentioned elsewhere Ruark used to 'voice' all their bought-in drivers and had them made to order (I was told) and so they would be 'non catalogue'. (Can't see Dynaudio playing ball though...??) Love the 'Recone Lab Workshop' pic in the link above - quite different to some of the 'audio ********s' I've seen (and my garage)....!! |
Crossover questions.....
On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:42:21 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote: "Keith G" wrote I've literally only just got in and have heard maybe 5 minutes of A/B'ing of both of them and I think they both sound very good - different, but still good. If you are about Don, nominate a track I'm bound to have and I'll grab a snatch from each of them for a 'comparison' (as far as is possible) - otherwise, it'll be a Milladoiro track!! OK, Don's sloped off for an early night! (Bless.... :-) Here's the Milladoira clips I threatened then, on this setup: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/recordingsetup.JPG (Sabres on top...) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20B.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20B.mp3 Quite different really, but neither is unpleasant in its own way (recording restraints notwithstanding) and either is easy enough to get used to....??? (Must be me - WTF do I know..?? ;-) Sorry Keith - I'm away from my usual setup right now. I'll have a listen later. d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Crossover questions.....
"Don Pearce" wrote in message ... On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:42:21 -0000, "Keith G" wrote: "Keith G" wrote I've literally only just got in and have heard maybe 5 minutes of A/B'ing of both of them and I think they both sound very good - different, but still good. If you are about Don, nominate a track I'm bound to have and I'll grab a snatch from each of them for a 'comparison' (as far as is possible) - otherwise, it'll be a Milladoiro track!! OK, Don's sloped off for an early night! (Bless.... :-) Here's the Milladoira clips I threatened then, on this setup: http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/recordingsetup.JPG (Sabres on top...) http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Merak%20B.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20A.mp3 http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Ruark%20B.mp3 Quite different really, but neither is unpleasant in its own way (recording restraints notwithstanding) and either is easy enough to get used to....??? (Must be me - WTF do I know..?? ;-) Sorry Keith - I'm away from my usual setup right now. I'll have a listen later. No worries, I gotta go and cut a 50 foot tree up now - it's on its side and hanging over the neighbour's garden! (Not here...) |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
"Keith G" wrote OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... **WOT A ****!!!** **WOT A PLONKA!!** I've just gone to switch over to the radio (CD's finished and I'm off down the garage again) and, as I was passing, twigged the bloody speakers that have been on all this time while the CD was player were my bloody *Pinkies*!!! (Amp's got A and B buttons for speaker output switching!) :-) :-)) :-))) Anyway, I switched over and yes the newly-fettled jobbies do sound good but it means I haven't really heard them yet! (Couldn't fekkin' script it could ya, but what a nice reaffirmation on the Pinkies - even better than asking the milkman!! :-) :-) At least your judgement didn't let you down - if it had been 'fit for skip' a rethink might have been in order! |
Crossover questions.....
"Rob" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: "Keith G" wrote OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... **WOT A ****!!!** **WOT A PLONKA!!** I've just gone to switch over to the radio (CD's finished and I'm off down the garage again) and, as I was passing, twigged the bloody speakers that have been on all this time while the CD was player were my bloody *Pinkies*!!! (Amp's got A and B buttons for speaker output switching!) :-) :-)) :-))) Anyway, I switched over and yes the newly-fettled jobbies do sound good but it means I haven't really heard them yet! (Couldn't fekkin' script it could ya, but what a nice reaffirmation on the Pinkies - even better than asking the milkman!! :-) :-) At least your judgement didn't let you down - if it had been 'fit for skip' a rethink might have been in order! Yes there were tears of joy and relief when I realised my mistake!! :-) Interestingly, the two pairs of 'refurbished speakers' sound very different (I have my own preference) but it is easy to forget it when listening to a recorded TV programme, which is all I've had the time to do so far!! Kinda confirms that the 'right' speakers for most people are the ones they have got used to and goes some way to explain why so many people seem to be seeking (or keeping) the speakers they had some decades ago!! |
Crossover questions.....
Keith G wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: "Keith G" wrote OK, that's the gamble I took, but the first pair are still on and really do sound good - I might grab a snatch off 'em and post it later.... **WOT A ****!!!** **WOT A PLONKA!!** I've just gone to switch over to the radio (CD's finished and I'm off down the garage again) and, as I was passing, twigged the bloody speakers that have been on all this time while the CD was player were my bloody *Pinkies*!!! (Amp's got A and B buttons for speaker output switching!) :-) :-)) :-))) Anyway, I switched over and yes the newly-fettled jobbies do sound good but it means I haven't really heard them yet! (Couldn't fekkin' script it could ya, but what a nice reaffirmation on the Pinkies - even better than asking the milkman!! :-) :-) At least your judgement didn't let you down - if it had been 'fit for skip' a rethink might have been in order! Yes there were tears of joy and relief when I realised my mistake!! :-) Interestingly, the two pairs of 'refurbished speakers' sound very different (I have my own preference) but it is easy to forget it when listening to a recorded TV programme, which is all I've had the time to do so far!! Kinda confirms that the 'right' speakers for most people are the ones they have got used to and goes some way to explain why so many people seem to be seeking (or keeping) the speakers they had some decades ago!! It is very much my experience that you can get used to anything (almost!) and then *that* sounds right whereas anything else different (even something measurably better) sounds "wrong". However, living with the "wrong" sound for a while, that then takes on being "right". In Broadcast, people have been using the Beyer DT100 headphones for monitoring for over 20 years. They are clearly flawed, but people go on using them as it's what they are used to and any change is disturbing. I had one experience in particular some years ago with a pair of Canton 'speakers, I don't remember the model number, but they were their top model at the time. The sound for me was intolerably bright, screamingly so, but I lived with them for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks I was finding them quite pleasant, and when I returned to my normal 'speakers (Meridian M2s) they sounded terribly dull for quite a while. I also spent an evening with a pair of large Magnaplanars who's bass was very boomy to my ears. However, by the end of the evening, it didn't seem so bad. I wonder if this is what's behind so many reviews of transducers where the reviewer said they sounded so much better after a period of "running-in". I don't think it was so much the equipment running-in as the reviewer's ears getting used to it. S. |
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