While we wait....
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Check my previous posts on the subject - I have always said to consider
that they might need a little attention from time to time and maybe not
buy one if you can't fettle it yourself!!

The basic problems are with the transformers.
Nothing to fettle there. If you want an improvement,
they should be changed. That's costly.


Goes for anything - see your own 'owt for nowt' remark! No-one in his right
mind is expecting the *best* for the cheapest price. I have had 4 Chinese
amps (2 identical) through my hands and they have all been more than
satisfactory for what they cost - I'm not on commission and don't care
whether people buy Chinese amps or not. I have said before, I have my own
reservations about trade with China and would personally like to see/hear
more about improved Animal and Human Rights (in that order)....



Even paying some primadonna's price for an hour's work to sort one out
wouldn't make it cost a fraction of a 'Western' price - how long before
there are realistically-priced *specialists* in Chinky amp repairs, if
there's as many about as you claim?

In the EU, you cannot expect a service tech to work
for a bowl of rice a day. From the amount he invoices,
he has to pay social costs, taxes, VAT, rent etc etc.
So it ain't cheap:-) You have had your own business
Keith, so you know all about "overheads" :-)


Just a tad....



The availability of these amps has been timed nicely
with the renewed interest in tube audio. Rather like
the Lada Niva, when people living in wintery climates
began to see the advantage of 4WD. The Niva was about
a quarter the price of the cheapest and most basic LandRover,
and made a huge dent in LandRover sales, but only very
short term.



I think the first real nail in Land Rover's coffin was the footage a few
years ago of Princess Horse sitting in one that had gone phut in the middle
of an African river and was being pushed out by a Toyota!

(Apparently, lip readers clearly identified her muttering the phrase 'Fukk'n
POS'...?? :-)



(How Long?? Do you think he and Wun Hung Lo might start summat up? :-)

My feeling is, that once these things are established,
the prices, and thus the quality will improve. Then the
EU and US makers will really be facing a challenge.
But if the current situation continues, people who
have burned their fingers will not be too ready to
take a chance on a Chinky Poo again.


You are pounding a drum that makes no sound to me - repeat, I have personal
experience of only 4 of these amps but they *all* performed satisfactorily
at least!

Give this a spin:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...icfrenesiC.mp3


That's the Bez 300B SET - does that sound so ****ed to you...???

(Allowing for the temporary tt setup and it being an open mic recording, of
course....)



But, it's just Yorkshire commonsense really,
Don't expect owt for nowt:-)


See above....



But what does it prove? Shiny Nigel's EAR 834P phono (same price as a
Chinky 300B SET) went tits-up in about a week from brand new....

That can happen with any piece of equipment.
Many of the bespoke tube amp builders are now
offering a 5 year warranty, to underline their faith
in the quality of their products. I know one who includes
a 2yr service check, at a very reasonable price, and if
the maintenance is carried out as per schedule, and
tubes re baissed, and repalced as necessary, there is
no reason why a ten year warranty could not be
offered. Remember Rolls Royce's life time guarantee?
They don't promise the car will just go on and on without
service, but when scheduled maintenance is carried out,
and parts changed before they are worn or broken then
they can promise trouble free motoring with a degree
of confidence.


And at a considerable price - even running a Jag (or BMW, Merc, SAAB, &c.)
is hugely expensive compared with the modern Jap/Korean runarounds.

Don't be the London Underground stationer who spends half of every working
day telling people there's no demand for fountain pens, Iain - embrace these
Chinese amps amd become Scandinavia's *Premiere* repairer and restorer of
them. Import Chinese technicians, if you need to, to cope with the workload
if there's as many as you say! (Works for Bernard Matthews.... ;-)

Who knows, each one that brings an amp in might go out a future customer for
one of your own products, if you can demonstrate the extra cost is
justified...??

I think the Chinese thing will probably boil over fairly soon, but until it
does the view of certain products from China is pretty much like the view of
Jap products (motorbikes in particular) in the UK, in the 60s. Except that
the rate of acceptance is much faster - who TF cares what name is on their
telly, computer/computer monitor &c. these days and who is in the least bit
surprised to see a 'Made In China' somewhere on the article or packaging?



No PCB in my Chinky (which does play up occasionally) - all I have to do
is shove it in the cupboard for a few weeks and it usually comes out with
a better frame of mind on.....

Point to point is probably the worst of all the
alternatives for predictable performance in a Chinky tube amp.
The Chinese, invented pyrotechnics and also birdsnest
soup:-)


Here's a few snaps of the only Chinese valve amp I have left (sold the
others with almost zero effort) so you can at least see summat of what it
looks like. Note the trannies are at least substantial and the 'mare's nest'
is no worse than any other P2P wiring I have seen:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bez01.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bez02.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bez03.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bez04.JPG


For what it cost (compared to Western prices for the same 'spec.') I
consider that I've already had my money's worth from it, it outperforms (in
sound quality terms) any other amp I have here and the day I can't cure any
tantrums with a smart rap from a stick or a couple of week's 'solitary
confinement' is the day Nick'll get a return visit from me! ;-)

(Unless I flogged it on....!! ;-)

While we wait....
 

Keith G wrote:


Here's a few snaps of the only Chinese valve amp I have left (sold the
others with almost zero effort) so you can at least see summat of what it
looks like. Note the trannies are at least substantial and the 'mare's nest'
is no worse than any other P2P wiring I have seen:


Just one point, whilst the TX's look "substantial" they do look to be
wound on laminations that look thick enough for a mains TX, I would have
likes to have seen thinner stock used. But as you say, can't expect too
much for the price.

As it happens, I am working on a 300b design/breadboard at the moment
and I may have to raise my opinion of how good the 300b can sound
upwards somewhat, though the power supply looks somewhat more like a
small AM transmitter than anything else at the moment :-)

--
Nick

While we wait....
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:


Here's a few snaps of the only Chinese valve amp I have left (sold the
others with almost zero effort) so you can at least see summat of what it
looks like. Note the trannies are at least substantial and the 'mare's
nest' is no worse than any other P2P wiring I have seen:


Just one point, whilst the TX's look "substantial" they do look to be
wound on laminations that look thick enough for a mains TX, I would have
likes to have seen thinner stock used. But as you say, can't expect too
much for the price.



Quite, but if you like 'Chinese Agricultural' at (presumably appropriate)
prices, the Bez site has some incredible old bits and pieces on it! It's a
very difficult and slow site to navigate, but if you've got a quick enough
connection, try some of the funny little hyperlinks on these pages for a
sort of 'Pot Luck'!!

Amps: http://www.bezdz.com/cpj1.htm

Trannies: http://www.bezdz.com/byq.htm

Speakers: http://www.bezdz.com/cj.htm

Valves: http://www.bezdz.com/dzg.htm




As it happens, I am working on a 300b design/breadboard at the moment and
I may have to raise my opinion of how good the 300b can sound upwards
somewhat, though the power supply looks somewhat more like a small AM
transmitter than anything else at the moment :-)




Interesting - a seriously chunky PS can't be a bad place to start, can it?
:-)

While we wait....
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Check my previous posts on the subject - I have always said to consider
that they might need a little attention from time to time and maybe not
buy one if you can't fettle it yourself!!

The basic problems are with the transformers.
Nothing to fettle there. If you want an improvement,
they should be changed. That's costly.


Goes for anything - see your own 'owt for nowt' remark! No-one in his
right mind is expecting the *best* for the cheapest price. I have had 4
Chinese amps (2 identical) through my hands and they have all been more
than satisfactory for what they cost - I'm not on commission and don't
care whether people buy Chinese amps or not. I have said before, I have my
own reservations about trade with China and would personally like to
see/hear more about improved Animal and Human Rights (in that order)....

Hi Keith,

In actual fact, while they are running, the Chinese valve amps
work pretty well, and compare favourably with something SS
of an equally silly price.



It is difficult for the average owner, at least in this part
of the world to know where to take such an amp. TV repair
shops won't usually touch them, and hifi dealers don't seem
to want to be troubled with something that was not bought
from them. So once they fail, they are offered in part
exchange for something better (and hopefully thermionic:-)


You are pounding a drum that makes no sound to me - repeat, I have
personal experience of only 4 of these amps but they *all* performed
satisfactorily at least!

Good for you:-)

That's the Bez 300B SET - does that sound so ****ed to you...???

No at all. It's fine while it's working.....

And at a considerable price - even running a Jag (or BMW, Merc, SAAB, &c.)
is hugely expensive compared with the modern Jap/Korean runarounds.

Yes. But an unreliable product only goes to strengthen the
impression that some people have that all valve equipment is quirky
and unreliable.

Don't be the London Underground stationer who spends half of every working
day telling people there's no demand for fountain pens, Iain - embrace
these Chinese amps amd become Scandinavia's *Premiere* repairer and
restorer of them. Import Chinese technicians, if you need to, to cope with
the workload if there's as many as you say! (Works for Bernard
Matthews.... ;-)

Gosh.- I would rather be a gardener and spend the day trying to
burn piles of wet leaves:-))

Who knows, each one that brings an amp in might go out a future customer
for one of your own products, if you can demonstrate the extra cost is
justified...??

:-))

I think the Chinese thing will probably boil over fairly soon, but until
it does the view of certain products from China is pretty much like the
view of Jap products (motorbikes in particular) in the UK, in the 60s.
Except that the rate of acceptance is much faster - who TF cares what name
is on their telly, computer/computer monitor &c. these days and who is in
the least bit surprised to see a 'Made In China' somewhere on the article
or packaging?

Chinese audio products have a poor reliability factor. This is the problem.
No one in their right minds would try to compete with them on price, but
then
no European coil winder would pot his transformers with cat litter:-)

Iain

While we wait....
 

"Iain Churches" wrote


In actual fact, while they are running, the Chinese valve amps
work pretty well, and compare favourably with something SS
of an equally silly price.


I doubt you could get a pair of decent 'Western' OPTs for the same money as
the whole amps can cost!




It is difficult for the average owner, at least in this part
of the world to know where to take such an amp. TV repair
shops won't usually touch them, and hifi dealers don't seem
to want to be troubled with something that was not bought
from them. So once they fail, they are offered in part
exchange for something better (and hopefully thermionic:-)


If they get new people into the WWOV then they will have served a purpose! I
*suspect* (I don't know) that once bitten by the thermionic bug it's
unlikely anyone would go back to SS for their *serious* listening, as you
have said yourself on a number of occasions.





You are pounding a drum that makes no sound to me - repeat, I have
personal experience of only 4 of these amps but they *all* performed
satisfactorily at least!

Good for you:-)

That's the Bez 300B SET - does that sound so ****ed to you...???

No at all. It's fine while it's working.....


Which it does all day long until it wants some time off - on the whole, the
thing is a workhorse!! (I thrash it mercilessly - if it can't take it, then
Sand Fairy Anne at what it cost! ;-)



And at a considerable price - even running a Jag (or BMW, Merc, SAAB,
&c.)
is hugely expensive compared with the modern Jap/Korean runarounds.

Yes. But an unreliable product only goes to strengthen the
impression that some people have that all valve equipment is quirky
and unreliable.


No....

Give even dummies like me a little credit - read the words again *no-one in
his right mind* expects topline performance from cheap, Chinky amps. If they
do and they squeal when one needs a bit of TLC, then they are best left out
of the loop anyway - it's a factor life, choob gear plays up from time to
time, end of....



Chinese audio products have a poor reliability factor. This is the
problem.


Sez who?

I can only speak from my own experience - 4 amps and a couple of (dirt
cheap) rectifier vales and one volume pot gone West in a couple of years is
all....

Oh, and one capacitor lead broke off - *German* cap and fixed in a
jiffy.....


No one in their right minds would try to compete with them on price, but
then
no European coil winder would pot his transformers with cat litter:-)


??

Enough already - have a look at this, out of interest (not directly
connected):

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...hornspkrs.html


Sent to me by the guy who bought my EAR834L (and Visaton OBs) and who also
bought an EAR834P from Haden Boardman, apparently!! Anyway, he's working his
way up to Lowthers now, from what I can see of it!! ;-)

While we wait....
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


In actual fact, while they are running, the Chinese valve amps
work pretty well, and compare favourably with something SS
of an equally silly price.


I doubt you could get a pair of decent 'Western' OPTs for the same money
as the whole amps can cost!

That's true. But there are a lot of cheap SS amsps on the market too.
Compared with these, the Chinese valve amps sound good, but the
cheapo SS gear is probably more reliable.

If they get new people into the WWOV then they will have served a purpose!
I *suspect* (I don't know) that once bitten by the thermionic bug it's
unlikely anyone would go back to SS for their *serious* listening, as you
have said yourself on a number of occasions.

Let's hope that will be the case. There is also the possibility that
someone
will buy a Chinese/Vietnamese amp which gives trouble, and draw the
conclusion
that all thermionic amps are unreliable.

Give even dummies like me a little credit - read the words again *no-one
in his right mind* expects topline performance from cheap, Chinky amps. If
they do and they squeal when one needs a bit of TLC, then they are best
left out of the loop anyway - it's a factor life, choob gear plays up from
time to time, end of....

Agreed. But first time owners may not really know what to expect,
and they may not know either what sort of money one has to pay for
say a Conrad Johnson.


Enough already - have a look at this, out of interest (not directly
connected):

http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/olde...hornspkrs.html


Sent to me by the guy who bought my EAR834L (and Visaton OBs) and who also
bought an EAR834P from Haden Boardman, apparently!! Anyway, he's working
his way up to Lowthers now, from what I can see of it!! ;-)

Did you know there are now Chinese copies of both Lowther and
Tannoy dual concentric (both "designed" in Germany, and built in the
FarEast?)


Iain

While we wait....
 

"Iain Churches" wrote


That's true. But there are a lot of cheap SS amsps on the market too.
Compared with these, the Chinese valve amps sound good, but the
cheapo SS gear is probably more reliable.


No idea - no personal experience other than of familiarly-branded stuff
which just happens to be built in China.




If they get new people into the WWOV then they will have served a
purpose! I *suspect* (I don't know) that once bitten by the thermionic
bug it's unlikely anyone would go back to SS for their *serious*
listening, as you have said yourself on a number of occasions.

Let's hope that will be the case. There is also the possibility that
someone
will buy a Chinese/Vietnamese amp which gives trouble, and draw the
conclusion
that all thermionic amps are unreliable.


I suppose it could be fairly argued that valve amps are generally a lot more
likely to give trouble than their similarly-priced ss counterparts. If the
'sound' from them wasn't so much better I don't suppose I would have
bothered with them myself, once the novelty had worn off....??

I understand (his wife told me) that T De P brought out both ss and valve
versions of an amp that were *sonically indistinguishable* from each other
to cater for 'lady musicians' (was the phrase) who were alarmed by the heat
and palaver of valve stuff! Both hideously expensive, I gather, which is the
whole point of valves - you get the better sound for actually a lot less
money at the budget end of the spectrum!



Give even dummies like me a little credit - read the words again *no-one
in his right mind* expects topline performance from cheap, Chinky amps.
If they do and they squeal when one needs a bit of TLC, then they are
best left out of the loop anyway - it's a factor life, choob gear plays
up from time to time, end of....

Agreed. But first time owners may not really know what to expect,
and they may not know either what sort of money one has to pay for
say a Conrad Johnson.


I really can't agree to this one - I think the chances of a slick/clueless
salesman saying to a fick Chav '...or there's this one with valves in
it.....' and said Chav saying 'Oh, OK then, I'll take that one!' are pretty
slim. Anyone who is drawn towards valves out of curiosity is likely to have
learned a little about them. But even if they do walk into a spot of bother,
then so what - life's nothing other than one big learning curve. Dropping a
goolie with a cheap valve amp is not likely to be the worst personal trial
anyone will experience.....

Up 'til only a year or so ago there were only 3 routes into valves at
anything like a budget price - dodgy old museum piece, a kit or build one
yourself from a heap of bits. I did all three. Now you can add 'cheap eBay
Chinese' to those options (and I did that too)!!

You must expect some (if not many) of your future customers to have taken at
least one of these routes to arrive in your showroom with and willing to
part with enough wedge to carry one off! No good fretting about how they get
there - or you will be relying only on the wealthier potential customers
who, of course, will be blissfully unaware of the possibly greater
likelihood of problems with the cheaper valve stuff!



Did you know there are now Chinese copies of both Lowther and
Tannoy dual concentric (both "designed" in Germany, and built in the
FarEast?)


Sure, there are even Chinese copies of quite inexpensive (for what they are)
Russian mics....!!!

While we wait....
 

Keith G wrote:

I understand (his wife told me) that T De P brought out both ss and valve
versions of an amp that were *sonically indistinguishable* from each other
to cater for 'lady musicians' (was the phrase) who were alarmed by the heat
and palaver of valve stuff! Both hideously expensive, I gather, which is the
whole point of valves - you get the better sound for actually a lot less
money at the budget end of the spectrum!


Ok, but every time I read anything that TDP has written or said I get
the feeling that its all hype/********/misdirection (your choice).

--
Nick

While we wait....
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

I understand (his wife told me) that T De P brought out both ss and
valve versions of an amp that were *sonically indistinguishable* from
each other to cater for 'lady musicians' (was the phrase) who were
alarmed by the heat and palaver of valve stuff! Both hideously expensive,
I gather, which is the whole point of valves - you get the better sound
for actually a lot less money at the budget end of the spectrum!


Ok, but every time I read anything that TDP has written or said I get the
feeling that its all hype/********/misdirection (your choice).



I have only had personal experience of a couple of minor EAR products - the
834P and L, both of which were not ridiculously overpriced at the time when
compared to other makes. As you know, the phono isn't marvellous but it's a
reasonable introduction to valve phono stages at the price level and the
line stage worked well enough (and was solidly built) but didn't do the
sound any favours at all - M could always tell when it was in the loop and
said it sounded 'blurry', I always thought it sounded 'grey' but wondered if
that might not be the Mullards I had in it...???

There's no doubt he's a succesful 'brand' (hype or not) - I had no trouble
shifting both those bits of kit and another thing worth a mention is that,
while TdP doesn't use Chinamen or little old ladies in headscarves as cheap
labour, I am told he does use *students*...!!

Anybody considering a commercial venture of any kind needs to know that
(outside of intangibles like 'skill' and ingenuity) the costs of the
workforce, vehicles, plant & machinery, premises and raw materials *will*
dictate unit cost price, but competition will dictate the ultimate selling
price - thus any competitor that has a significant advantage in any of those
cost areas stands a greater chance of succeeding/surviving in a marketplace
where he has no monopoly...!!

Factor in also that a lot of the 'Eastern' competition in many areas (call
centres, to name but one) receives serious Government assistance/subsidy to
run their businesses while here in Good Old Blighty you can only depend on
being shafted at every opportunity and saddled with ruinous legislation
heavily loaded in favour of the weakest link in your workforce, irrespective
of any company's capability to pay for the necessary implementation!!

While we wait....
 

Keith G wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:


I understand (his wife told me) that T De P brought out both ss and
valve versions of an amp that were *sonically indistinguishable* from
each other to cater for 'lady musicians' (was the phrase) who were
alarmed by the heat and palaver of valve stuff! Both hideously expensive,
I gather, which is the whole point of valves - you get the better sound
for actually a lot less money at the budget end of the spectrum!


Ok, but every time I read anything that TDP has written or said I get the
feeling that its all hype/********/misdirection (your choice).




I have only had personal experience of a couple of minor EAR products - the
834P and L, both of which were not ridiculously overpriced at the time when
compared to other makes. As you know, the phono isn't marvellous but it's a
reasonable introduction to valve phono stages at the price level and the
line stage worked well enough (and was solidly built) but didn't do the
sound any favours at all - M could always tell when it was in the loop and
said it sounded 'blurry', I always thought it sounded 'grey' but wondered if
that might not be the Mullards I had in it...???

I worded my post to include what he said/wrote and not the performance
of his products, as I have only heard a few of them, but all the things
I have read from him match how I described them.

Nothing more.

--
Nick