On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:29 +0100, "jasee"
wrote:

I don't think it _is_ modest if they've just done the above and if they
don't own the copyright how can they legally sell them anyway. I think
anyone with any manuals should not let any commercial organisation near any
manuals they have. Make them into pdfs and send them to:

If you ever run a business you'll realise that £5 is a VERY
philanthropic price for a support event.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:05:28 +0100, "jasee"
wrote:

Because very often, or maybe always, they haven't scanned any
documents, they've simply copied someone elses scan or got the pfs
from somewhere else. So the price is out of all proportion to the
cost. They don't even own the copyright anyway.


Many manufacturers take the attitude that, if the manuals ARE in pdf
format, it's cheaper and easier to make them freely available for
download. Others feel differently. And it's THEIR call, not ours.

Manufacturers themselves are different, I believe a good manufacturer has an
obligation to allow free download of ALL their equpment manuals. I also
believe that the should make freely available their service manuals for all
their obsolete equipment.

It would also be great if manufacturers followed B&O's example and at least
left a copy of the circuit diagram inside each of their products (if they
still do that).

Serge Auckland wrote:
"jasee" wrote in message
...
Serge Auckland wrote:

"Mike Cawood, HND BIT" wrote in message
...
"jasee" wrote in message
...
Mike Coatham wrote:

Somehow it goes against the grain to pay money for this sort of
thing. Although this appears to be an original. I hate these
companies/individuals who are making money out of selling usually
copies of this sort of thing. Information should always be free.
I'm very much in favour of sites like this:

http://www.eserviceinfo.com/

Where manuals are free and you can upload any old manuals to. It
doesn't have your Tandberg manual, but you can request it.

I agree.
They should turn the manuals into pdf files & put them up on a
website for FREE download.

Who are "they"? If you mean a private individual, hobbyist, then I
agree, it is a nice thing to do to. However, if the manual owner is
a commercial organisation, who will pay for the time to scan a large
document and create PDFs? Also, if the commercial organisation in
question sells vintage equipment, why shouldn't they also be able to
make a commercial return on the information they own?

Because very often, or maybe always, they haven't scanned any
documents, they've simply copied someone elses scan or got the pfs
from somewhere else. So the price is out of all proportion to the
cost. They don't even own the copyright anyway.

Whether they own the copyright or not is a matter for the copyright
holder, if they still exist. However, you have not answered the
question as to why should a commercial organisation not make a return
on the information they hold. They are not a charitable or
philanthropic institution, so the alternative to charging for the
information is not to make it available at all. I would rather pay a
modest fee (and £ 5 *is* modest) and have the information than not
pay it and not have it.

I don't think it _is_ modest if they've just done the above and if they
don't own the copyright how can they legally sell them anyway. I think
anyone with any manuals should not let any commercial organisation near any
manuals they have. Make them into pdfs and send them to:

http://www.eserviceinfo.com/

Eventually they will stop and hopefully put what they have left in the
public domain.

In a certain newsgroup, people ask for manuals. Immediately, a commercial
advertiser pops up advertising his site. I'm pleased to say, I've stopped
his game one or twice by emailed the poster the required manual.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:29 +0100, "jasee"
wrote:

I don't think it _is_ modest if they've just done the above and if
they don't own the copyright how can they legally sell them anyway.
I think anyone with any manuals should not let any commercial
organisation near any manuals they have. Make them into pdfs and
send them to:

http://www.eserviceinfo.com/
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oi, you snipped 'my' ad :-)


If you ever run a business you'll realise that £5 is a VERY
philanthropic price for a support event.

I _do_ run a business, however I wouldn't run a business based on the sale
of manuals! I'd just upload them to:

http://www.eserviceinfo.com/


Then I wouldn't have to bother about whether or not I was making money from
them

In article , Laurence Payne
lpayne1NOSPAM@dslDOTpipexDOTcom wrote:
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:05:28 +0100, "jasee" wrote:

Because very often, or maybe always, they haven't scanned any
documents, they've simply copied someone elses scan or got the pfs
from somewhere else. So the price is out of all proportion to the
cost. They don't even own the copyright anyway.


Many manufacturers take the attitude that, if the manuals ARE in pdf
format, it's cheaper and easier to make them freely available for
download. Others feel differently. And it's THEIR call, not ours.

Yes... and no. :-)

The copyright and IPR would be theirs. However there are problems.

One is that when a maker shuts down then it may be difficult to service a
unit or check if it is working OK. Since the UK/EU law permits some copying
for the purposes of 'study', 'research', etc, it can be argued that copies
should then be available for repair work, or to study how the unit worked.

Another is that although the physical drawings the company makes may be
their copyright, this does not necessarily prevent someone else from doing
their own drawings of the same topology and issuing copies if they so
choose. But if no-one has ever seen a diagram this can be difficult -
particularly with those makers who do things like remove the identication
numbers from components or pot them so you can't determine what they used.

If the circuit arrangement is 'novel' then it can only be protected legally
if patented - which means they have to have disclosed all the relevant
details in the patent. This is a public document and can be copied. If they
haven't patented the arrangement then others can make their own versions if
they wish - provided they don't duplicate the physical form or 'pass off'
the results as being by the original maker.

I have particular problems with the behaviour of some makers in refusing to
provide any circuit diagrams, etc. This makes it difficult to establish any
record for 'historic' purposes.

The problem for older makers tends to be rather different. They generally
were happy to issue circuit diagrams, service manuals, etc. The snag was
'continuous development' which means that each diagram may be a 'snapshot'
of the unit - at a time not indicated on the diagrams! Been looking at
Sugden and Radford diagrams recently, and this is a snag with both makes.
However in those days makers were generally proud of their designs, and
delighted to give people all the details. Not like many modern makers who
seem to feel they have 'something to hide'. :-/

Above said, situations like that with Sugden or Radford can be fascinating
as an excercise in what I have come to call 'Audio Archeology'. You
'unearth' documents a bit like digging up chunks of pottery, and then
compare them with others to try and deduce what came when, and what were
the reasons for the changes. Fun as well as frustrating. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Keith G
wrote:


Times are changing me auld china (clue) - leaving a circuit diagram in
the products is an invitation to get your gear cloned, these days......

I've seen that excuse given on various occasions. However the reality is
that a skilled engineer can take a set apart and work out the circuit. It
takes more time, skill, and effort than having a set of drawings. But if
the copy doing the 'cloning' are determined it is easy enough.

I fear that the real reasons for refusing to issue diagrams and a decent
service manual are more often:

1) Sheer 'canna-be-bothered'

2) Fear that it will show the circuit is less impressive than the hype.
Don't want to put off the flights of fancy in reviews or shops. :-)

3) Too dim to realise what I point out above. Or know the circuit isn't
worth anyone else cloning. :-)

4) Trying to control the service and repair market. The idea being that the
company makes more cash from either doing all service itself, or by
charging 'appointed agents'. i.e. anti-competitive practices. Probably
illegal, but hard to deal with.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 16:05:28 +0100, "jasee"
wrote:

Because very often, or maybe always, they haven't scanned any
documents, they've simply copied someone elses scan or got the pfs
from somewhere else. So the price is out of all proportion to the
cost. They don't even own the copyright anyway.


Many manufacturers take the attitude that, if the manuals ARE in pdf
format, it's cheaper and easier to make them freely available for
download. Others feel differently. And it's THEIR call, not ours.

"They" (above) in this context is third party sellers of manufacturers'
manuals _not_ manufacturers however IMO manufacturers themselves can only
gain respect from making them freely available and making them freely
available also prevents unscrupulous dealers trying to make money from
selling them.

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:


Times are changing me auld china (clue) - leaving a circuit diagram in
the products is an invitation to get your gear cloned, these days......

I've seen that excuse given on various occasions. However the reality is
that a skilled engineer can take a set apart and work out the circuit. It
takes more time, skill, and effort than having a set of drawings. But if
the copy doing the 'cloning' are determined it is easy enough.


Sure.



I fear that the real reasons for refusing to issue diagrams and a decent
service manual are more often:

1) Sheer 'canna-be-bothered'


No doubt!



2) Fear that it will show the circuit is less impressive than the hype.
Don't want to put off the flights of fancy in reviews or shops. :-)

3) Too dim to realise what I point out above. Or know the circuit isn't
worth anyone else cloning. :-)

4) Trying to control the service and repair market. The idea being that
the
company makes more cash from either doing all service itself, or by
charging 'appointed agents'. i.e. anti-competitive practices. Probably
illegal, but hard to deal with.



I would be tempted to query that, given how little stuff is really worth
repairing these days!





Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html