"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Dave Matthews" wrote in message
...
If you don't mind me saying so, I think your approach to vinyl is wrong -
there is no way it will compete for silence/noise floor with CD or 24/192
and it's is a Fool's Errand to try.

Oh, indeed - I agree... up to a point. In a previous post frankwm
mentioned his Nimbus disks - my 27-year-old copy of Tangerine Dream's
"70-80" boxset was also done by Nimbus and its surface noise is virtually
non-existent while there are no clicks/pops at all (indeed the tonal
characteristics of the musical signal is preferable to my ears than
subsequent CD releases of the same tracks)....

Another LP I transcribed once (Roy Budd's "The Final Option"
soundtrack - from Varese Sarabande, 1982) produced a brilliant result with
no fancy cleaning technique other than a velvet pad and Hunt EDA carbon
brush. Yes, there is *some* surface noise there but it's perfectly
acceptable.. in fact it's largely covered by the hiss from the master tape!

On the other hand, despite owning four copies of Mainframe's "Tenants of
the Latticework" (1983), I can't get a decent transcription from any of
them. Although all copies are original pressings, I can only assume they
were always pressed on low-quality vinyl - in which case maybe even a
professional RCM couldn't help much...?

Meanwhile the "throwaway" LP I've been experimenting on (as mentioned in
previous posts) underwent such a huge improvement to its surface noise when
wet-playing it that I would have been happy to use that for transcription
(albeit it with mild further digital "clean-up" and the now-occasional
clicks/pops digitally removed).

... I suppose what I'm wondering is, even accepting that LPs will never
render CD-like quality, irrespective of any amount of cleaning done to them,
is it still worth forking out for a professional RCM? Frankwm doesn't seem
to think so.

--

Cheers,


Dave

I'd find the Keith Monks RCM useful solely for purposes of rinsing/
vacuuming-off.
Definitely No I-P-A solution being applied by nylon brush onto a
rotating / contaminated disc.
I'd detergent-clean the LP before that stage.
It would also solve the problem of pre-mid '70s vinyl (particularly
Decca pressed) not always forming a dry/wet 'edge' with my method -
the water seemingly 'sticking' to the vinyl - so not really much
better than 'drip-dry' cleaning :-(

Although the BBC successfully used KM RCMs - on R3 in the 70s (you'd
hear 'drizzle' sounds on the outermost grooves - due to the KM
suction-head stop-point) - I wonder what state the discs are now in.
They also tracked LPs @ c.3.5grams.....
However, it's hardly cost-effective @ modern prices except for folks
with large/'valuable' (or 'used-to-be'..) collections.
Whether they are wise in going on a cleaning-spree is another matter !

"Dave Matthews" wrote


snip


... I suppose what I'm wondering is, even accepting that LPs will
never render CD-like quality, irrespective of any amount of cleaning
done to them, is it still worth forking out for a professional RCM?
Frankwm doesn't seem to think so.



'CD-like quality'...???

Who the hell wants it? I still think your approach is wrong if you are
trying to get an LP to sound like a CD. (You like *two dimensional*
sound??)

As to whether or not an RCM is worth it kinda depends on what you have
in the way of records. I have at least 3,000 discs (Swim says 4,000 - I
ain't counting them) most of which came from charity shops. Despite many
of them being *unplayed* there was still the grime of ages on a number
of them and even mould on a few - for me there was no doubt that an RCM
would be useful/necessary....

(Last time I looked, the Moth cleather could be bought as a kit which
represented a considerable saving, IIRC??)

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
... I suppose what I'm wondering is, even accepting that LPs will
never render CD-like quality, irrespective of any amount of cleaning
done to them, is it still worth forking out for a professional RCM?
Frankwm doesn't seem to think so.

'CD-like quality'...???

Who the hell wants it? I still think your approach is wrong if you are
trying to get an LP to sound like a CD. (You like *two dimensional*
sound??)

The third dimension being pops and crackles?

Tell me Keith, do you have any digitally mastered LPs with your 'third
dimension? Or is it restricted to analogue ones? And do you notice a
difference between direct cut and those mastered on tape?

--
*Toilet stolen from police station. Cops have nothing to go on.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
... I suppose what I'm wondering is, even accepting that LPs
will
never render CD-like quality, irrespective of any amount of
cleaning
done to them, is it still worth forking out for a professional RCM?
Frankwm doesn't seem to think so.

'CD-like quality'...???

Who the hell wants it? I still think your approach is wrong if you
are
trying to get an LP to sound like a CD. (You like *two dimensional*
sound??)

The third dimension being pops and crackles?

Tell me Keith, do you have any digitally mastered LPs with your 'third
dimension? Or is it restricted to analogue ones? And do you notice a
difference between direct cut and those mastered on tape?



The 'Slavic All Analogue' recordings on Melodiya, Supraphon and
Hungaraton from the 60s and 70s are *particularly* to my taste - does
that help?

Play these *warts and all* direct to hard disk recordings (no editing,
but faded out for neatness and with the 'set-down' left on to give you a
little 'vinyl thrill'):

A record I have owned and played for over 40 years:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...20Martinez.mp3


And this one being quite recent:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Livonia.mp3


Both a bit sloppy with a slight channel imbalance, but otherwise 'Vinyl
WAVs' grabbed off my hard disk at random - if either of these is too
noisy for you at a *normal* listening distance, then you should
definitely avoid vinyl at all costs...

"frankwm" wrote in message
ups.com...
I'd find the Keith Monks RCM useful solely for purposes of rinsing/
vacuuming-off.

So what, if any, would be the difference between using an RCM for
rinsing & vacuuming and simply using a high-pressure hosepipe and a Dyson
with its fine brush attachment? I'm honestly not being flippant when I ask
this... just very naive, perhaps!



Although the BBC successfully used KM RCMs - on R3 in the 70s (you'd
hear 'drizzle' sounds on the outermost grooves

Ah, yes - I know exactly what you mean!

--

Cheers,


Dave

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


'CD-like quality'...???

Sorry, I meant purely in terms of (lack of) noise - not musical quality!


As to whether or not an RCM is worth it kinda depends on what you have in
the way of records. I have at least 3,000 discs (Swim says 4,000 - I ain't
counting them) most of which came from charity shops. Despite many of them
being *unplayed* there was still the grime of ages on a number of them and
even mould on a few - for me there was no doubt that an RCM would be
useful/necessary....


Well that brings me back to my original post - I currently only have
about 50 LPs I want to transcribe to CD-R (though I'm buying more and more
at the moment), so splashing out £1500 on an RCM might not seem very
cost-effective. However given the seeming lack of any RCM retailers or
service in my area (north Lancs/south Cumbria), I can see a potential
business opportunity! (Not that I'd give up the day job, mind!)

--

Cheers,


Dave

"Dave Matthews" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


'CD-like quality'...???

Sorry, I meant purely in terms of (lack of) noise - not musical
quality!


As to whether or not an RCM is worth it kinda depends on what you
have in the way of records. I have at least 3,000 discs (Swim says
4,000 - I ain't counting them) most of which came from charity shops.
Despite many of them being *unplayed* there was still the grime of
ages on a number of them and even mould on a few - for me there was
no doubt that an RCM would be useful/necessary....


Well that brings me back to my original post - I currently only
have about 50 LPs I want to transcribe to CD-R (though I'm buying more
and more at the moment), so splashing out £1500 on an RCM might not
seem very cost-effective. However given the seeming lack of any RCM
retailers or service in my area (north Lancs/south Cumbria), I can see
a potential business opportunity! (Not that I'd give up the day job,
mind!)




Jeezus! Who's talking about **1,500 quid** FFS!?

A Moth record cleaner like mine:

http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/mothrcm.htm


Will cost 'from 450 quid' made-up/ready to go or 'from 255UKP' if you
have got the nouse to make a simple box from a single sheet of ply!! (I
believe the kit even supplies sticky corner strips to make the box
with!!??)

Keep it real....

"So what, if any, would be the difference between using an RCM for
rinsing & vacuuming and simply using a high-pressure hosepipe and a
Dyson
with its fine brush attachment? "
Dunno..not got 'A Dyson'

If you go to www.vinylengine.com forum and type my moniker into
author / search you will discover (#2) (also #9 etc) on the list a
thread on the Cadence Nokki-Okki-Wokki RCM.
You will find A Wealth of Knowledge/Erudition/Commonsense on the other
73 threads I contributed too to. tooo....
However, the site-owner went Quite Beserk in September 2005...and
banned me.

:-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
Jeezus! Who's talking about **1,500 quid** FFS!?

A Moth record cleaner like mine:

http://www.britishaudio.co.uk/mothrcm.htm


Ooops!! For some reason I'd got it into my head that the Moth was in
excess of two grand. I must have been thinking about the high-end Loricraft
ones.

--

Cheers,


Dave