Killer, ain't it?

All that digital *techno* (Quad HD!!??) and they are grabbing legacy
*analogue/valve* audio gear like it's, er, going out of style....!! :-)

I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying how
DAB is so much better than FM! mp3's are CD quality ( errm folks, 198kbps vs
1.4mbps! )
if it's digital then it's automatically perceived as better. There are 'sub'
bass speakers that go down to such deep frequencies as 40Hz! what's the
world coming to?

I have the Beatles trilogy cd set, old studio mixes prob mastered on DAT and
then remastered to cd, they beat some modern cd's hands down for clarity and
realism,in fact they beat the end products that these lead up to....... I
have some really old Fats Waller recordings that have been put on cd
compilations and they are amazing considering what the original recording
source must have been. I think hifi is dead, taken over by over compressed
samll footprint media and a mistaken belief that if it's digital and hiss
free then it's the bees knees in reproduction. Rant over............

Pete 50 in October which prob explains my rants........

"Pete Cross" wrote in message ...
Killer, ain't it?

All that digital *techno* (Quad HD!!??) and they are grabbing legacy
*analogue/valve* audio gear like it's, er, going out of style....!!
:-)

I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying
how
DAB is so much better than FM! mp3's are CD quality ( errm folks,
198kbps vs
1.4mbps! )
if it's digital then it's automatically perceived as better. There are
'sub'
bass speakers that go down to such deep frequencies as 40Hz! what's
the
world coming to?

I have the Beatles trilogy cd set, old studio mixes prob mastered on
DAT and
then remastered to cd, they beat some modern cd's hands down for
clarity and
realism,in fact they beat the end products that these lead up
to....... I
have some really old Fats Waller recordings that have been put on cd
compilations and they are amazing considering what the original
recording
source must have been. I think hifi is dead, taken over by over
compressed
samll footprint media and a mistaken belief that if it's digital and
hiss
free then it's the bees knees in reproduction. Rant over............

Pete 50 in October which prob explains my rants........


OK, I crossed that bridge 10 years ago - take it from me, it gets easier
as time goes on and one thing you realise is that, short of human or
animal suffering, nothing much is worth getting yer knickers in a twist
for! There is no *mutual exclusivity* with digital/analogue or ss/valve
choices. I have run them all since I got into 'audio' - it's only a few
clowns* here (who have picked up on my strong preference for valves &
vinyl who have chosen to disregard any reference I have made to anything
else) who like to fan the flames and pump their own prejudices and
bigotry! Play wot ya like on wot ya like!!

Run DAB *and* FM - I do!!

Run valves *and* SS - I do!!

Play LPs, CDs, MPs, DVDs or whatever TF - I do....

(But, that said, I could live with just my vinyl rig and a decent radio!
;-)


*Actually, there's only two of 'em left now from what I can see...??

In article , Pete Cross writes
Killer, ain't it?

All that digital *techno* (Quad HD!!??) and they are grabbing legacy
*analogue/valve* audio gear like it's, er, going out of style....!! :-)

I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying how
DAB is so much better than FM! mp3's are CD quality ( errm folks, 198kbps vs
1.4mbps! )
if it's digital then it's automatically perceived as better. There are 'sub'
bass speakers that go down to such deep frequencies as 40Hz! what's the
world coming to?

I have the Beatles trilogy cd set, old studio mixes prob mastered on DAT and
then remastered to cd, they beat some modern cd's hands down for clarity and
realism,in fact they beat the end products that these lead up to....... I
have some really old Fats Waller recordings that have been put on cd
compilations and they are amazing considering what the original recording
source must have been. I think hifi is dead, taken over by over compressed
samll footprint media and a mistaken belief that if it's digital and hiss
free then it's the bees knees in reproduction. Rant over............

Pete 50 in October which prob explains my rants........

Your not the only one..

This is from a private mailist- the TX list for those in the broadcast
industry written buy Mike Brown who runs the www.mb21.co.uk site...


************************************************** **********************




martin.watkins wrote:

I could weep, because it's true that compression is becoming the norm
and once people think that's how it is we're shafted.

Indeed. So many people now expect audio be something undemanding they
can listen to casually that we have bred a whole generation of people
for whom dynamics are an annoyance rather than an attribute. As a
mastering engineer I find it difficult even to get musicians to accept
that natural dynamics are preferable to LOUDNESS. Attempts to master
recordings with natural dynamics result in complaints that the disc
"isn't loud enough". When this happens I ask if the disk sounds thee way
they'd like it to sound, apart from that. "Oh yes" they reply, "it
sounds great, it's just not loud enough." Simple instructions on how to
use the big knob marked VOLUME on their amplifier sometimes does the
trick but not always. Some clients are not happy unless it sounds as
loud as the latest CD by Whoever. Of course the latest CD by Whoever
actually sounds like complete **** so you end up having to make their CD
sound like **** too so that they will pay the bill. Such is life.

The problem we have with grossly overcooked audio compression doesn't
show any signs of going away. We all know the economic reasons for it in
radio, but while people are fed a constant stream of compressed,
homogenous, detail-less noise by all radio stations and most popular
CDs, that is all people will expect and accept.

And don't believe, for one moment, that classical record labels are
immune from this, because they're not. A number of classical recordings
I've heard recently have also become fashion victims of the "limit it
and make it louder" brigade.

Perhaps paradoxically, video may yet save the audio star. TV and DVD
remains something that people will sit down, watch and concentrate on,
and in these applications audio remains reasonably demanding. In general
tv has resisted Optimod despite the fact that people regularly complain
that the highly processed commercials often sound louder than the
surrounding programmes. This matter is actually under active discussion
with a view to developing a loudness standard similar to that which
laudably pertains in cinemas. The cinema industry has wisely agreed to
work to a common loudness value. This actually works in practice because
neither the public nor the cinema projectionist is in charge of the
volume knob - Dolby are. They come round and periodically check that the
cinemas are actually running Dolby Surround at the correct gain/volume.
This means that cinema sound has retained the ability to blow your head
off with FX when the situation demands it. Would that the CD audio and
radio world would do the same, but, alas, it is almost certainly far
too late.

--
mb
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Pete Cross writes
Killer, ain't it?

All that digital *techno* (Quad HD!!??) and they are grabbing legacy
*analogue/valve* audio gear like it's, er, going out of style....!! :-)

I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying how
DAB is so much better than FM! mp3's are CD quality ( errm folks, 198kbps
vs
1.4mbps! )
if it's digital then it's automatically perceived as better. There are
'sub'
bass speakers that go down to such deep frequencies as 40Hz! what's the
world coming to?

I have the Beatles trilogy cd set, old studio mixes prob mastered on DAT
and
then remastered to cd, they beat some modern cd's hands down for clarity
and
realism,in fact they beat the end products that these lead up to....... I
have some really old Fats Waller recordings that have been put on cd
compilations and they are amazing considering what the original recording
source must have been. I think hifi is dead, taken over by over compressed
samll footprint media and a mistaken belief that if it's digital and hiss
free then it's the bees knees in reproduction. Rant over............

Pete 50 in October which prob explains my rants........

Your not the only one..

This is from a private mailist- the TX list for those in the broadcast
industry written buy Mike Brown who runs the www.mb21.co.uk site...


************************************************** **********************




martin.watkins wrote:

I could weep, because it's true that compression is becoming the norm
and once people think that's how it is we're shafted.

Indeed. So many people now expect audio be something undemanding they
can listen to casually that we have bred a whole generation of people
for whom dynamics are an annoyance rather than an attribute. As a
mastering engineer I find it difficult even to get musicians to accept
that natural dynamics are preferable to LOUDNESS. Attempts to master
recordings with natural dynamics result in complaints that the disc
"isn't loud enough". When this happens I ask if the disk sounds thee way
they'd like it to sound, apart from that. "Oh yes" they reply, "it
sounds great, it's just not loud enough." Simple instructions on how to
use the big knob marked VOLUME on their amplifier sometimes does the
trick but not always. Some clients are not happy unless it sounds as
loud as the latest CD by Whoever. Of course the latest CD by Whoever
actually sounds like complete **** so you end up having to make their CD
sound like **** too so that they will pay the bill. Such is life.

The problem we have with grossly overcooked audio compression doesn't
show any signs of going away. We all know the economic reasons for it in
radio, but while people are fed a constant stream of compressed,
homogenous, detail-less noise by all radio stations and most popular
CDs, that is all people will expect and accept.

And don't believe, for one moment, that classical record labels are
immune from this, because they're not. A number of classical recordings
I've heard recently have also become fashion victims of the "limit it
and make it louder" brigade.

Perhaps paradoxically, video may yet save the audio star. TV and DVD
remains something that people will sit down, watch and concentrate on,
and in these applications audio remains reasonably demanding. In general
tv has resisted Optimod despite the fact that people regularly complain
that the highly processed commercials often sound louder than the
surrounding programmes. This matter is actually under active discussion
with a view to developing a loudness standard similar to that which
laudably pertains in cinemas. The cinema industry has wisely agreed to
work to a common loudness value. This actually works in practice because
neither the public nor the cinema projectionist is in charge of the
volume knob - Dolby are. They come round and periodically check that the
cinemas are actually running Dolby Surround at the correct gain/volume.
This means that cinema sound has retained the ability to blow your head
off with FX when the situation demands it. Would that the CD audio and
radio world would do the same, but, alas, it is almost certainly far
too late.

--
mb
--
Tony Sayer


The message may actually be getting through to the public:- The Daily Mail a
few days ago ran an article about this very topic, how excessive processing
was destroying music in favour of a loud, processed pap. They also made the
point that it's creeping into classical music, not just chart stuff. The
article was written in the Mail's usual "isn't it awful" style, but at least
one mass-circulation paper though it worth-while to bring this to the
public's attention.

S

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

"Serge Auckland" in
:

The message may actually be getting through to the public:- The Daily Mail a
few days ago ran an article about this very topic, how excessive processing
was destroying music in favour of a loud, processed pap. They also made the
point that it's creeping into classical music, not just chart stuff. The
article was written in the Mail's usual "isn't it awful" style, but at least
one mass-circulation paper though it worth-while to bring this to the
public's attention.

S

I was interested enough to glance at the dailymail.co.uk site but couldn't
find it. Just by coincidence, I came across this yesterday; perhaps a backlash
against heavily processed sound has (perversely;-?) driven a vinyl resurgence?

http://www.musicangle.com/shownews.php?id=104

"David Hayes of the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the
University of Toronto says the growing popularity of vinyl might be a form of
resistance against the music industry's corporate taste-makers."

"In yet another turnaround, teens overwhelmingly insisted the sound quality of
LPs was superior to that of modern formats. They characterized LPs and the LP
artists of the past as more authentic than the barrage of youth-oriented music
being aggressively marketed to them today."
--
Ross Matheson

"RdM" wrote in message
...
"Serge Auckland" in
:

The message may actually be getting through to the public:- The Daily
Mail a
few days ago ran an article about this very topic, how excessive
processing
was destroying music in favour of a loud, processed pap. They also
made the
point that it's creeping into classical music, not just chart stuff.
The
article was written in the Mail's usual "isn't it awful" style, but
at least
one mass-circulation paper though it worth-while to bring this to the
public's attention.

S

I was interested enough to glance at the dailymail.co.uk site but
couldn't
find it. Just by coincidence, I came across this yesterday; perhaps a
backlash
against heavily processed sound has (perversely;-?) driven a vinyl
resurgence?

http://www.musicangle.com/shownews.php?id=104

"David Hayes of the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the
University of Toronto says the growing popularity of vinyl might be a
form of
resistance against the music industry's corporate taste-makers."

"In yet another turnaround, teens overwhelmingly insisted the sound
quality of
LPs was superior to that of modern formats. They characterized LPs and
the LP
artists of the past as more authentic than the barrage of
youth-oriented music
being aggressively marketed to them today."


You can't kid kids and dogs....

;-)

"RdM" wrote in message


http://www.musicangle.com/shownews.php?id=104

"David Hayes of the Ontario Institute for Studies in
Education at the University of Toronto says the growing
popularity of vinyl might be a form of resistance against
the music industry's corporate taste-makers."

The growing popularity of vinyl has been a myth om the US for at least 6
months, now that CD players for DJs that simulate scratching have come down
in price.

"Arny Krueger" opined in
uk.rec.audiowJidneLkob8wKfPbnZ2dnUVZ_sapnZ2d@comc ast.com:

"RdM" wrote in message


http://www.musicangle.com/shownews.php?id=104

"David Hayes of the Ontario Institute for Studies in
Education at the University of Toronto says the growing
popularity of vinyl might be a form of resistance against
the music industry's corporate taste-makers."

NB that the article I linked is nearly 14mths old. Itself sourced, as below...

The growing popularity of vinyl has been a myth om the US for at least 6
months, now that CD players for DJs that simulate scratching have come down
in price.

Interesting hypothesis, but I suspect merely that. Yes, a vector to consider.

The two source links comments may make interesting reading, especially the
second, from digg.com, and one applies even to your DJ CD scratching decks.
( a comment that they are annoying when they skip - maybe not so different!)
(I have a friend who has one, along with mixing amp monitors & turntables too)

For those too lazy to cut&paste from my earlier lazy link, given for the site,
which I'd just stumbled across and browsed, in the hope that some may enjoy;
( i.e. for such gems as Zen and the Art of Record Cleaning Made Difficult;=})
( http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=54 ) and other features from there)

these were the source references given:

http://www.physorg.com/news64807495.html
http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Teens_...uperior_to_CDs

The context of this tangential sub-thread; was revulsion to dynamic
compression ... I'm noting a rediscovery of even limited vinyl in response.

Merely. Notwithstanding any drop in price for DJ CD decks. No argument.

And even now, here is a US site going online selling vinyl & DVD-A ... why?

http://www.warnerreprise.com/artist_.../bsm-email.htm

Money is part of it of, course, if not almost all ... meeting another market.

Yes, it's a myth ...

Personally, I'm not interested in their touted offerings, and I'm not even
advocating vinyl - and I have suberb shop selections of it where I live anyway
- I include it as one of my sources though, with affection despite its faults!

Just a conversational note or three ... ;=})

--
Ross Matheson
Auckland, New Zealand

In article , Pete Cross wrote:
Killer, ain't it?

All that digital *techno* (Quad HD!!??) and they are grabbing legacy
*analogue/valve* audio gear like it's, er, going out of style....!! :-)

I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying
how DAB is so much better than FM!

Particularly when they don't discriminate one station from another or
define 'better'. :-)


mp3's are CD quality ( errm folks,
198kbps vs 1.4mbps! )

Errm, that confuses data rate with information rate... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html

In article ,
Pete Cross wrote:
I find it increasingly dissapointing to hear people these days saying how
DAB is so much better than FM!

Why? It can be better or worse.

--
*Income tax service - We‘ve got what it takes to take what you've got.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.