Further to an earlier discussion, some information has just come to hand.

HD-DVD backers claim to have sold around 50,000 machines, worldwide. Sony
claims to have sold more than 1 million Blu Ray machines (most in the guise
of Playstations).

Additionally and possibly more importantly. Blockbuster has announced that
it will no longer stock HD-DVD software. They will be concentrating on Blu
Ray disks.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12942/1085/

Whilst I still maintain that it will be the computer/gaming industry which
will drive this industry, it seems that HD-DVD is in serious trouble
already. It seems that the superior system will be embraced by much of the
industry.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .
Further to an earlier discussion, some information has just come to
hand.

HD-DVD backers claim to have sold around 50,000 machines, worldwide.
Sony claims to have sold more than 1 million Blu Ray machines (most in
the guise of Playstations).

Additionally and possibly more importantly. Blockbuster has announced
that it will no longer stock HD-DVD software. They will be
concentrating on Blu Ray disks.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12942/1085/



Thanks for the update, but that story was on the BBC 24hr News Service
yesterday - although I gather they will still do both on the 'Net and in
some 250 stores??



Whilst I still maintain that it will be the computer/gaming industry
which will drive this industry, it seems that HD-DVD is in serious
trouble already. It seems that the superior system will be embraced by
much of the industry.


You seem to be implying that Bluray is 'superior' (??) - if you Google
'Bluray vs. HDDVD' there is a ton of stuff blathering on about the
parlous state of affairs atm and speculating what Joe Soap will (or
won't) do in the short term, but I have yet to see a definitive
statement that puts one format ahead of the other on anything like a
technical basis?

Asitappens, I will get my first experience of an HDTV close up (ie. not
in a showroom and barely looked at even then) in an hour or so from now,
when I hope to see some Bluray and HDDVD samples run from a computer -
the closest approximation to a 'Hi Def 'system that we can get. So far,
the only sample of a Bluray clip I have seen myself (also on a computer)
was most unimpressive with an obvious orange-peel effect here and there
and that general 'sandiness' you get from digital images that have been
'sharpened', but that may well have been the material....??

I would add that, since the earlier posts on this topic, I have been
made aware that there is actually something of a mass indifference to
'HD' in the UK generally and that the reason for the increasing sales of
'HD Ready' TV sets (at least) is that it is becoming harder to buy which
*isn't* HD ready (apparently) !!??

Anyway, I think we all know where this latest fiasco ends up, it's just
a question of how (and how quickly) it gets there! As far as we are
concerned here, I do believe the 'moment' has passed for now....

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .
Further to an earlier discussion, some information has just come to hand.

HD-DVD backers claim to have sold around 50,000 machines, worldwide. Sony
claims to have sold more than 1 million Blu Ray machines (most in the
guise of Playstations).

Additionally and possibly more importantly. Blockbuster has announced
that it will no longer stock HD-DVD software. They will be concentrating
on Blu Ray disks.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12942/1085/



Thanks for the update, but that story was on the BBC 24hr News Service
yesterday - although I gather they will still do both on the 'Net and in
some 250 stores??

**No idea. It is, however, bad news for HD-DVD.




Whilst I still maintain that it will be the computer/gaming industry
which will drive this industry, it seems that HD-DVD is in serious
trouble already. It seems that the superior system will be embraced by
much of the industry.


You seem to be implying that Bluray is 'superior' (??)

**That's because it is. I am implying nothing. I am stating it as fact. Blu
Ray has more capacity (both actual and theoretical) and stronger copy
protection schemes.

- if you Google
'Bluray vs. HDDVD' there is a ton of stuff blathering on about the parlous
state of affairs atm and speculating what Joe Soap will (or won't) do in
the short term, but I have yet to see a definitive statement that puts one
format ahead of the other on anything like a technical basis?

**You're not reading enough. Capacity is the name of the game. Blu Ray has
it.


Asitappens, I will get my first experience of an HDTV close up (ie. not in
a showroom and barely looked at even then) in an hour or so from now, when
I hope to see some Bluray and HDDVD samples run from a computer - the
closest approximation to a 'Hi Def 'system that we can get. So far, the
only sample of a Bluray clip I have seen myself (also on a computer) was
most unimpressive with an obvious orange-peel effect here and there and
that general 'sandiness' you get from digital images that have been
'sharpened', but that may well have been the material....??

**I do not, for one millisecond, believe that there are any significant
visual or audible differences between the two systems. The only areas where
one system will be beaten, will be:

* Availability of software (a win for Blu Ray).
* Capacity of the disks (a win for Blu Ray).
* Price of hardware (a push).
* Price of disks (a win for HD-DVD).



I would add that, since the earlier posts on this topic, I have been made
aware that there is actually something of a mass indifference to 'HD' in
the UK generally and that the reason for the increasing sales of 'HD
Ready' TV sets (at least) is that it is becoming harder to buy which
*isn't* HD ready (apparently) !!??

**Yep. The vast unwashed don't care about HD. Computer users and gamers,
OTOH, DO care. And Blu Ray has it all.


Anyway, I think we all know where this latest fiasco ends up, it's just a
question of how (and how quickly) it gets there! As far as we are
concerned here, I do believe the 'moment' has passed for now....

**Agreed. Blu Ray has won the battle already.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


Thanks for the update, but that story was on the BBC 24hr News
Service yesterday - although I gather they will still do both on the
'Net and in some 250 stores??

**No idea. It is, however, bad news for HD-DVD.


???


You seem to be implying that Bluray is 'superior' (??)

**That's because it is. I am implying nothing. I am stating it as
fact. Blu Ray has more capacity (both actual and theoretical) and
stronger copy protection schemes.


These are not issues that interest/bother me...



- if you Google
'Bluray vs. HDDVD' there is a ton of stuff blathering on about the
parlous state of affairs atm and speculating what Joe Soap will (or
won't) do in the short term, but I have yet to see a definitive
statement that puts one format ahead of the other on anything like a
technical basis?

**You're not reading enough. Capacity is the name of the game. Blu Ray
has


I thought it was image (and sound) quality that mattered - I read on one
of the HD vs BR pages that the extra capacity of BR would likely only be
filled up with 'movie extras' which are of no interest to me.


Asitappens, I will get my first experience of an HDTV close up (ie.
not in a showroom and barely looked at even then) in an hour or so
from now, when I hope to see some Bluray and HDDVD samples run from a
computer - the closest approximation to a 'Hi Def 'system that we can
get. So far, the only sample of a Bluray clip I have seen myself
(also on a computer) was most unimpressive with an obvious
orange-peel effect here and there and that general 'sandiness' you
get from digital images that have been 'sharpened', but that may well
have been the material....??


OK. I got to see the one Bluray and several HDVD clips on an HDTV (VGA
connection) earlier tonight and also ordinary DVD on an HDMI player
connected HDMI/HDMI.

IMO, the HDMI/ordinary DVD beat the HDDVD clip (Italian Job II) hands
down - there was equal sharpness in both images but the HDDVD picture
was much darker with less 'luminosity'. The one Bluray clip (Philips
promo 'Follow The Blue Line') was much better than before, but I think
the clip probably sucks anyway - there was still the 'sandy' appearance
on skin tones and the 'orange peel' effect was still apparent. Pump this
digital photo I took of the screen up to get an idea - eyes, nose and
mouth areas, in particular:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bluray%20Pic.jpg



**I do not, for one millisecond, believe that there are any
significant visual or audible differences between the two systems. The
only areas where one system will be beaten, will be:

* Availability of software (a win for Blu Ray).
* Capacity of the disks (a win for Blu Ray).
* Price of hardware (a push).
* Price of disks (a win for HD-DVD).


I see it like this (same order):

Nothing in it (ie not a lot available yet, either way).
Irrelevant if the extra space is only going to be filled up with 'Disk
2' crap
Bluray kit is currently about twice the price of HDDVD.
Not a lot in it, especially rented...??


Anyway, I think we all know where this latest fiasco ends up, it's
just a question of how (and how quickly) it gets there! As far as we
are concerned here, I do believe the 'moment' has passed for now....

**Agreed. Blu Ray has won the battle already.


From a *movie only* POV I don't think it has, but I don't really care -
from what I saw earlier tonight, an upscaling DVDP with HDMI Out is
actually preferable to HDDVD on an HDTV screen, so I can see why Yussef
Ordinaire isn't too bothered! Our own interest in 'higher quality'
images is really only for projected movies; until an 'HD Ready'
projector was on the cards for us also, there is no point in a single
format player of either flavour. So I'm quite happy to let it go for the
time being.

(Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing didn't follow SACD/DVDA
down the tubes....)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


Thanks for the update, but that story was on the BBC 24hr News Service
yesterday - although I gather they will still do both on the 'Net and in
some 250 stores??

**No idea. It is, however, bad news for HD-DVD.


???


You seem to be implying that Bluray is 'superior' (??)

**That's because it is. I am implying nothing. I am stating it as fact.
Blu Ray has more capacity (both actual and theoretical) and stronger copy
protection schemes.


These are not issues that interest/bother me...

**YOU are not important. YOU are in a minority. It is the majority which
will determine the outcome. I was a supporter of Beta, because of it's
clearly superior visuals to VHS. My opinion was unimportant. As yours is in
this issue.




- if you Google
'Bluray vs. HDDVD' there is a ton of stuff blathering on about the
parlous state of affairs atm and speculating what Joe Soap will (or
won't) do in the short term, but I have yet to see a definitive
statement that puts one format ahead of the other on anything like a
technical basis?

**You're not reading enough. Capacity is the name of the game. Blu Ray
has


I thought it was image (and sound) quality that mattered

**Not specifically. As long as the visual and audible quality is superior to
DVD (which it is) and that the differences between the two systems are
miniscule (which they are) then the buying decisions will be made due to
other factors. Capacity, for instance.

- I read on one
of the HD vs BR pages that the extra capacity of BR would likely only be
filled up with 'movie extras' which are of no interest to me.

**You still seem to be hung on movies. The movie industry will not determine
the outcome. The movie industry will follow whatever the computer/gaming
industry decides. Your viewpoint is not relevant.



Asitappens, I will get my first experience of an HDTV close up (ie. not
in a showroom and barely looked at even then) in an hour or so from now,
when I hope to see some Bluray and HDDVD samples run from a computer -
the closest approximation to a 'Hi Def 'system that we can get. So far,
the only sample of a Bluray clip I have seen myself (also on a computer)
was most unimpressive with an obvious orange-peel effect here and there
and that general 'sandiness' you get from digital images that have been
'sharpened', but that may well have been the material....??


OK. I got to see the one Bluray and several HDVD clips on an HDTV (VGA
connection) earlier tonight and also ordinary DVD on an HDMI player
connected HDMI/HDMI.

IMO, the HDMI/ordinary DVD beat the HDDVD clip (Italian Job II) hands
down - there was equal sharpness in both images but the HDDVD picture was
much darker with less 'luminosity'. The one Bluray clip (Philips promo
'Follow The Blue Line') was much better than before, but I think the clip
probably sucks anyway - there was still the 'sandy' appearance on skin
tones and the 'orange peel' effect was still apparent. Pump this digital
photo I took of the screen up to get an idea - eyes, nose and mouth areas,
in particular:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bluray%20Pic.jpg



**I do not, for one millisecond, believe that there are any significant
visual or audible differences between the two systems. The only areas
where one system will be beaten, will be:

* Availability of software (a win for Blu Ray).
* Capacity of the disks (a win for Blu Ray).
* Price of hardware (a push).
* Price of disks (a win for HD-DVD).


I see it like this (same order):

Nothing in it (ie not a lot available yet, either way).

**Wrong. There is a great deal in it, if a company like Blockbuster decides
to back Blu Ray.

Irrelevant if the extra space is only going to be filled up with 'Disk 2'
crap

**Absolutely relevant for the computer/gaming industry. And it is that
industry who makes the decisions.

Bluray kit is currently about twice the price of HDDVD.

**Only in YOUR geographical area. Everywhere else, the difference is
minimal.

Not a lot in it, especially rented...??

**Exactly.



Anyway, I think we all know where this latest fiasco ends up, it's just
a question of how (and how quickly) it gets there! As far as we are
concerned here, I do believe the 'moment' has passed for now....

**Agreed. Blu Ray has won the battle already.


From a *movie only* POV I don't think it has,

**You cannot examine this issue from a movie only POV. The industry is much
bigger than that.

but I don't really care -
from what I saw earlier tonight, an upscaling DVDP with HDMI Out is
actually preferable to HDDVD on an HDTV screen, so I can see why Yussef
Ordinaire isn't too bothered! Our own interest in 'higher quality' images
is really only for projected movies; until an 'HD Ready' projector was on
the cards for us also, there is no point in a single format player of
either flavour. So I'm quite happy to let it go for the time being.

(Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing didn't follow SACD/DVDA
down the tubes....)

**Depends. If another system can come to market quickly enough, which offers
superior potential, then Blu Ray may fail. I doubt it though. The demand for
capacity is there and there is a small demand for HD to be catered for as
well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


**That's because it is. I am implying nothing. I am stating it as
fact. Blu Ray has more capacity (both actual and theoretical) and
stronger copy protection schemes.


These are not issues that interest/bother me...

**YOU are not important. YOU are in a minority. It is the majority
which will determine the outcome. I was a supporter of Beta, because
of it's clearly superior visuals to VHS. My opinion was unimportant.
As yours is in this issue.


Tuck yer shirt in....



- I read on one
of the HD vs BR pages that the extra capacity of BR would likely only
be filled up with 'movie extras' which are of no interest to me.

**You still seem to be hung on movies. The movie industry will not
determine the outcome. The movie industry will follow whatever the
computer/gaming industry decides. Your viewpoint is not relevant.


My only interest in 'hi def/hi capacity' disks is (music and) movies. I
don't care what the computer/gaming industry gets up to.



**Depends. If another system can come to market quickly enough, which
offers superior potential, then Blu Ray may fail. I doubt it though.
The demand for capacity is there and there is a small demand for HD to
be catered for as well.


This is all a long way from my original enquiry, when I asked if anyone
had taken the plunge with either format.

Your own original response was 'wait and see' (good/obvious advice, but
it didn't scratch my itch), so I conducted a little research and have
come to the conclusion that the HD and BR samples I have now seen on an
HDTV do *not* blow away an upscaled DVD when played on an HDMI player,
using the HDMI connection to the TV - which, IIRC, is basically what
Arny said a couple of weeks ago??

My own requirements are a little different, however - we don't watch
movies on any TV, we watch *projected* movies and every little helps
when it comes to sharpness/contrast &c. My conclusion here is that
either HD or BR on the appropriate player would probably be an
improvement, but not so great until such time as we could could throw
the correct resolution 'HD Ready' PJ into the equation also.

(As to which format 'wins' any war - I couldn't give a Fiddler's Fart,
so long as I hadn't already bought a single format player for the losing
side'..!! ;-)

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

I thought it was image (and sound) quality that mattered

**Not specifically. As long as the visual and audible quality is
superior to DVD (which it is) and that the differences between the two
systems are miniscule (which they are) then the buying decisions will
be made due to other factors. Capacity, for instance.

FWIW I am wary of BluRay for reasons not covered by the above.

IIUC The BluRay system differs from both standard DVD and HD-DVD in
locating the information layer much closer to the disc surface. Just 100
microns below the read surface, rather than around 600 for other discs.

It seems to me that this increases the risk of problems due to scratches
and dirt. Not only would a 100 micron scratch reach the actual information
layer, but the spot size of the laser at the disc surface will be somewhat
smaller than with the other systems.

Hence I am waiting to see if people start finding they have problems as
discs are used, and pick up even tiny marks on the read surface. The error
correction systems will, of course, help, but I am wondering how reliable
the BluRay system will prove in practice. It will probably be OK, but it
may take a few years before we know the details.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


Thanks for the update, but that story was on the BBC 24hr News Service
yesterday - although I gather they will still do both on the 'Net and
in some 250 stores??

**No idea. It is, however, bad news for HD-DVD.


???


You seem to be implying that Bluray is 'superior' (??)

**That's because it is. I am implying nothing. I am stating it as fact.
Blu Ray has more capacity (both actual and theoretical) and stronger
copy protection schemes.


These are not issues that interest/bother me...

**YOU are not important. YOU are in a minority. It is the majority which
will determine the outcome. I was a supporter of Beta, because of it's
clearly superior visuals to VHS. My opinion was unimportant. As yours is
in this issue.




- if you Google
'Bluray vs. HDDVD' there is a ton of stuff blathering on about the
parlous state of affairs atm and speculating what Joe Soap will (or
won't) do in the short term, but I have yet to see a definitive
statement that puts one format ahead of the other on anything like a
technical basis?

**You're not reading enough. Capacity is the name of the game. Blu Ray
has


I thought it was image (and sound) quality that mattered

**Not specifically. As long as the visual and audible quality is superior
to DVD (which it is) and that the differences between the two systems are
miniscule (which they are) then the buying decisions will be made due to
other factors. Capacity, for instance.

- I read on one
of the HD vs BR pages that the extra capacity of BR would likely only be
filled up with 'movie extras' which are of no interest to me.

**You still seem to be hung on movies. The movie industry will not
determine the outcome. The movie industry will follow whatever the
computer/gaming industry decides. Your viewpoint is not relevant.



Asitappens, I will get my first experience of an HDTV close up (ie. not
in a showroom and barely looked at even then) in an hour or so from
now, when I hope to see some Bluray and HDDVD samples run from a
computer - the closest approximation to a 'Hi Def 'system that we can
get. So far, the only sample of a Bluray clip I have seen myself (also
on a computer) was most unimpressive with an obvious orange-peel effect
here and there and that general 'sandiness' you get from digital images
that have been 'sharpened', but that may well have been the
material....??


OK. I got to see the one Bluray and several HDVD clips on an HDTV (VGA
connection) earlier tonight and also ordinary DVD on an HDMI player
connected HDMI/HDMI.

IMO, the HDMI/ordinary DVD beat the HDDVD clip (Italian Job II) hands
down - there was equal sharpness in both images but the HDDVD picture was
much darker with less 'luminosity'. The one Bluray clip (Philips promo
'Follow The Blue Line') was much better than before, but I think the clip
probably sucks anyway - there was still the 'sandy' appearance on skin
tones and the 'orange peel' effect was still apparent. Pump this digital
photo I took of the screen up to get an idea - eyes, nose and mouth
areas, in particular:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bluray%20Pic.jpg



**I do not, for one millisecond, believe that there are any significant
visual or audible differences between the two systems. The only areas
where one system will be beaten, will be:

* Availability of software (a win for Blu Ray).
* Capacity of the disks (a win for Blu Ray).
* Price of hardware (a push).
* Price of disks (a win for HD-DVD).


I see it like this (same order):

Nothing in it (ie not a lot available yet, either way).

**Wrong. There is a great deal in it, if a company like Blockbuster
decides to back Blu Ray.

Irrelevant if the extra space is only going to be filled up with 'Disk 2'
crap

**Absolutely relevant for the computer/gaming industry. And it is that
industry who makes the decisions.

Bluray kit is currently about twice the price of HDDVD.

**Only in YOUR geographical area. Everywhere else, the difference is
minimal.

Not a lot in it, especially rented...??

**Exactly.



Anyway, I think we all know where this latest fiasco ends up, it's just
a question of how (and how quickly) it gets there! As far as we are
concerned here, I do believe the 'moment' has passed for now....

**Agreed. Blu Ray has won the battle already.


From a *movie only* POV I don't think it has,

**You cannot examine this issue from a movie only POV. The industry is
much bigger than that.

but I don't really care -
from what I saw earlier tonight, an upscaling DVDP with HDMI Out is
actually preferable to HDDVD on an HDTV screen, so I can see why Yussef
Ordinaire isn't too bothered! Our own interest in 'higher quality' images
is really only for projected movies; until an 'HD Ready' projector was on
the cards for us also, there is no point in a single format player of
either flavour. So I'm quite happy to let it go for the time being.

(Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing didn't follow SACD/DVDA
down the tubes....)

**Depends. If another system can come to market quickly enough, which
offers superior potential, then Blu Ray may fail. I doubt it though. The
demand for capacity is there and there is a small demand for HD to be
catered for as well.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Im so glad i still have my beta max.

On Jun 20, 12:28 am, "Keith G" wrote:

IMO, the HDMI/ordinary DVD beat the HDDVD clip (Italian Job II) hands
down - there was equal sharpness in both images but the HDDVD picture
was much darker with less 'luminosity'. The one Bluray clip (Philips
promo 'Follow The Blue Line') was much better than before, but I think
the clip probably sucks anyway - there was still the 'sandy' appearance
on skin tones and the 'orange peel' effect was still apparent. Pump this
digital photo I took of the screen up to get an idea - eyes, nose and
mouth areas, in particular:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bluray%20Pic.jpg


That looks utterly abysmal. Is it a true representation of how it
looks on the screen, too?

I've been increasingly unimpressed by the hi-def images I've been
seeing too - not dissimilar to how you describe things and the image
you've linked to. So much so, I've given up on the current "state of
the art" and picked up (well, with the help of a couple of other
strapping blokes!) a Toshiba 36" CRT for £125. Whilst far from
perfect, it beats the pants off most of the HD images I've seen in
shop displays and at friends and family. I really had high hopes for
HD too.

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Jun 20, 12:28 am, "Keith G" wrote:

IMO, the HDMI/ordinary DVD beat the HDDVD clip (Italian Job II) hands
down - there was equal sharpness in both images but the HDDVD picture
was much darker with less 'luminosity'. The one Bluray clip (Philips
promo 'Follow The Blue Line') was much better than before, but I think
the clip probably sucks anyway - there was still the 'sandy'
appearance
on skin tones and the 'orange peel' effect was still apparent. Pump
this
digital photo I took of the screen up to get an idea - eyes, nose and
mouth areas, in particular:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Bluray%20Pic.jpg


That looks utterly abysmal. Is it a true representation of how it
looks on the screen, too?


Not quite - it's a digital photo of a 'freeze frame' so it hasn't been
done any favours, but I think it clearly shows the origin of the 'sandy'
effect on skintones in the (promotional) clip I saw.



I've been increasingly unimpressed by the hi-def images I've been
seeing too - not dissimilar to how you describe things and the image
you've linked to. So much so, I've given up on the current "state of
the art" and picked up (well, with the help of a couple of other
strapping blokes!) a Toshiba 36" CRT for £125. Whilst far from
perfect, it beats the pants off most of the HD images I've seen in
shop displays and at friends and family. I really had high hopes for
HD too.


Superficial sharpness and extreme contrast might be immediately
impressive (much like the *wow* factor of certain speakers) but they do
not make a really satisfying or realistic image, in my book. I have
never liked the 'digital look' which is deathly compared with a good
'analogue' picture and LCD screens only make it worse, from what I have
seen so far!

I suppose where it comes to the fore is in the depiction of certain
'computer generated' imagery where there is no *natural* look to worry
about...??