JimC wrote:
George M. Middius wrote:




Why "accuracy"? For certain Usenet poseurs, this is the question
that dare not speak its name.

Normals (black magic flat-earth believers) and 'borgs alike would
surely accept that the purpose of an audio system is to enable us to
enjoy listening to recorded music. Normals choose the pieces of a
system that maximizes listening pleasure. How does praying to the god of
"accuracy" help attain that end?

It's really rather simple, Georgie. - Those of us who are not within
your black magic-subjectivism cult enjoy listening to recorded music
because we enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or
performed. [...]



What does black magic-subjectivism cult imply, Mr. Cate?
What does it signify? You seems bitter on something about
high-end audio in general.



The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to
reproduce Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to be
performed, or to hear the Rolling Stones in a manner that
reproduces their concerts more nearly as they were performed (more
nearly than a small table radio, for example). [...]


Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended their
music to be heard when played in the listening room in our home?

Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly as
they intended them to be heard when performed inside our home ?


It's because our
listening pleasure derives from the music itself, George, not from
distortion or manipulation of the music caused by our equipment.

Mr. Cate, are you hinting that audiophiles who listen to music
through their vinyl records derives listening pleasure from the distortion
and manipulation by their equipment, and not from the music
itself ?


For anyone who didn't get it, the purpose of George's original post,
as usual, was to put down anyone who doesn't accept his black-magic
subjectivist biases. (And also, another display of his long-standing
inferiority problems when confronting those who know something about
the science.) It wasn't, of course, derived from an interest on his
part in learning from contributors with various viewpoints.

Jim

"JBorg, Jr." wrote in message
news
JimC wrote:

George M. Middius wrote:

Why "accuracy"? For certain Usenet poseurs, this is the question
that dare not speak its name.

Normals (black magic flat-earth believers) and 'borgs alike would
surely accept that the purpose of an audio system is to enable us to
enjoy listening to recorded music. Normals choose the pieces of a
system that maximizes listening pleasure. How does praying to the god of
"accuracy" help attain that end?

It's really rather simple, Georgie. - Those of us who are not within
your black magic-subjectivism cult enjoy listening to recorded music
because we enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or
performed. [...]

What does black magic-subjectivism cult imply, Mr. Cate?
What does it signify? You seems bitter on something about
high-end audio in general.

'You seems bitter on something'? Poor grammar noted. What the hell do you
mean?

The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to reproduce Beethoven's
works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to be performed, or to hear
the Rolling Stones in a manner that reproduces their concerts more
nearly as they were performed (more nearly than a small table radio, for
example). [...]

'more nearly' x 3. Poor grammar noted.

Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended their
music to be heard when played in the listening room in our home?

The 'Rolling Stones' I think you mean. The Rolling Stone is a music industry
publication. 'intended their music to be heard'? Poor grammar noted.

Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of requirement where
we can obtain these information so that we can listen to Mr. Beethoven and
the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly as they intended them to be
heard when performed inside our home ?

What a load of pompous drivel, and to top it off, your knowledge of the
English language, particularly grammar, is appalling. Talk about a poseur.

It's because our listening pleasure derives from the music itself,
George, not from
distortion or manipulation of the music caused by our equipment.

Mr. Cate, are you hinting that audiophiles who listen to music through
their vinyl records derives listening pleasure from the distortion and
manipulation by their equipment, and not from the music itself ?

Mr. Borg, your misuse of the English language is laughable, especially as
you seem to be trying so hard to use it correctly. Forget about it. What
George or Jim do or don't mean by what they have posted here is of little
consequence anyway.
We audiophiles all know that it's NOT the music that matters, it's the HIGH
FIDELITY.

For anyone who didn't get it, the purpose of George's original post,
as usual, was to put down anyone who doesn't accept his black-magic
subjectivist biases. (And also, another display of his long-standing
inferiority problems when confronting those who know something about
the science.) It wasn't, of course, derived from an interest on his
part in learning from contributors with various viewpoints.

ruff

JBorg, Jr. wrote:
JimC wrote:

George M. Middius wrote:




Why "accuracy"? For certain Usenet poseurs, this is the question
that dare not speak its name.

Normals (black magic flat-earth believers) and 'borgs alike would
surely accept that the purpose of an audio system is to enable us to
enjoy listening to recorded music. Normals choose the pieces of a
system that maximizes listening pleasure. How does praying to the god of
"accuracy" help attain that end?

It's really rather simple, Georgie. - Those of us who are not within
your black magic-subjectivism cult enjoy listening to recorded music
because we enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or
performed. [...]




What does black magic-subjectivism cult imply, Mr. Cate?
What does it signify? You seems bitter on something about
high-end audio in general.




A more helpful line of questions would have been, what does Middius mean
by the term "borg," "normals", "Kroogism," etc.; and why has he been
spending all that time, year after year, attacking those who disagree
with him on this ng? "Black magic-subjectivism" is the philosopy Mr.
Middius adheres to and promotes. It is characterized by personal attacks
on those who introduce logic into discussions of audio matters, and in
particular, those who have some knowldge of the relevant principles of
physics.




The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to
reproduce Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to be
performed, or to hear the Rolling Stones in a manner that
reproduces their concerts more nearly as they were performed (more
nearly than a small table radio, for example). [...]



Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended their
music to be heard when played in the listening room in our home?

Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly as
they intended them to be heard when performed inside our home ?



The point I was making (which I suspect you knew full well in the first
place) was that listening to music in on a system capable of reproducing
the music with greater fidelity to the performance (greater "accuracy")
is, for most audiophiles, more satisfying and enjoyable than listening
to the same music reproduced by a system with minimal accuracy, e.g., a
small table radio. In other words, greater "accuracy" generally provides
a more satisfying listening experience. YOUR interjection of the
suggestion that I somehow expect or require that we listen to Beethoven,
or the RSs or whoever, "precisely and correctly as they intended to be
heard" is, of course, your own invention. - I never said or implied such
a thing. - And I'm well aware that there are limits to realistic
reproduction of an orchestra or rock group in the home. My point was
that most of us generally derive greater pleasure from listening to good
music reproduced with accuracy (higher fidelity to the original
performance) than we do with less accurate reproduction, e.g., listening
to the same music reproduced by a small table radio.




It's because our
listening pleasure derives from the music itself, George, not from
distortion or manipulation of the music caused by our equipment.


Mr. Cate, are you hinting that audiophiles who listen to music
through their vinyl records derives listening pleasure from the distortion
and manipulation by their equipment, and not from the music
itself ?

Nope. I'm just saying that, in general, accuracy is in fact a useful and
desirable quality in audio, and that, in general, it results in a more
satisfying and enjoyable listening experience.



For anyone who didn't get it, the purpose of George's original post,
as usual, was to put down anyone who doesn't accept his black-magic
subjectivist biases. (And also, another display of his long-standing
inferiority problems when confronting those who know something about
the science.) It wasn't, of course, derived from an interest on his
part in learning from contributors with various viewpoints.

Jim

Incidentally Mr. Borg, do you disagree with my contention that Geroge's
purpose for posting his original note related to a point he was trying
to make and a philosphy he was tring to push rather than intellectual
curiosity, for example, or a desire on his part to learn from
contributors with various viewpoints?

Jim

Queenie Catie is confused again.

what does Middius mean by ... "Kroogism,"

My guess is that you've lost the last of your marbles.

Don't take your doctor's word for anything, Queenie. If the window is high
enough, you will be squashed into a pulpy mess.

JimC wrote:
JBorg, Jr. wrote:
JimC wrote:

snip



It's really rather simple, Georgie. - Those of us who are not within
your black magic-subjectivism cult enjoy listening to recorded music
because we enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or
performed. [...]

What does black magic-subjectivism cult imply, Mr. Cate?
What does it signify? You seems bitter on something about
high-end audio in general.


A more helpful line of questions would have been, what does Middius
mean by the term "borg," "normals", "Kroogism," etc.; and why has he
been spending all that time, year after year, attacking those who
disagree with him on this ng? "Black magic-subjectivism" is the
philosopy Mr. Middius adheres to and promotes. It is characterized by
personal attacks on those who introduce logic into discussions of
audio matters, and in particular, those who have some knowldge of the
relevant principles of physics.



Okey, so it's about exposing the tedious propaganda that Arny K.
and his ilk demonstrate in audio groups.


The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to
reproduce Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them
to be performed, or to hear the Rolling Stones in a manner that
reproduces their concerts more nearly as they were performed (more
nearly than a small table radio, for example). [...]

Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended their
music to be heard when played in the listening room in our home?

Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly as
they intended them to be heard when performed inside our home ?


The point I was making (which I suspect you knew full well in the
first place) was that listening to music in on a system capable of
reproducing the music with greater fidelity to the performance
(greater "accuracy") is, for most audiophiles, more satisfying and
enjoyable than listening to the same music reproduced by a system
with minimal accuracy, e.g., a small table radio. In other words,
greater "accuracy" generally provides a more satisfying listening
experience. YOUR interjection of the suggestion that I somehow expect
or require that we listen to Beethoven, or the RSs or whoever,
"precisely and correctly as they intended to be heard" is, of course,
your own invention. - I never said or implied such a thing. - [...]


What you said then was unclear to me. You stated that:


***
" Those of us ... enjoy listening to recorded music because we
enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or performed."

" The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to reproduce
Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to
be performed..."

***


Is it my invention then to claim that you implied that we listen as it
was composed and/or performed by whoever in the listening room
inside our home ?


How did Beethoven intended his composition to be performed ?

How should conductor determine Beethoven's intention when
performing his composition ?

How should sound recording engineer determine Beethoven's
intention when reproducing his works ?

What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in these case ?



And I'm
well aware that there are limits to realistic reproduction of an
orchestra or rock group in the home. My point was that most of us
generally derive greater pleasure from listening to good music
reproduced with accuracy (higher fidelity to the original
performance) than we do with less accurate reproduction, e.g.,
listening to the same music reproduced by a small table radio.


Higher fidelity ? As in higher fidelity than Beethoven intended
his composition to be performed ?

What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in this case ?




It's because our listening pleasure derives from the music itself,
George, not from distortion or manipulation of the music caused by our
equipment.


Mr. Cate, are you hinting that audiophiles who listen to music
through their vinyl records derives listening pleasure from the
distortion and manipulation by their equipment, and not from the
music itself ?

Nope. I'm just saying that, in general, accuracy is in fact a useful
and desirable quality in audio, and that, in general, it results in a
more satisfying and enjoyable listening experience.

Ok.


snip

Jim

Incidentally Mr. Borg, do you disagree with my contention that
Geroge's purpose for posting his original note related to a point he
was trying to make and a philosphy he was tring to push rather than
intellectual curiosity, for example, or a desire on his part to learn
from contributors with various viewpoints?

Jim



To agree, or disagree -- that is the question.


I shall place my answer on hold, Mr. Cate, because a missing
part of my response will be build on the answer you provide to
my questions above.

"JimC" wrote in message
t...

A more helpful line of questions would have been, what does Middius mean
by the term "borg," "normals", "Kroogism," etc.;

One reason why I don't feel threatened by the Middiot is that he speaks in
code. Most newbies aren't going to take time to learn it. Therfore, he's
acting like a transmitter with no active receivers.

and why has he been spending all that time, year after year, attacking
those who disagree with him on this ng?

Lack of a life to keep the Middiot busy in productive tasks.

"Black magic-subjectivism" is the philosopy Mr. Middius adheres to and
promotes.

I don't favor sullying subjectivism by characterizing it as being relevant
to Middiot postings.

It is characterized by personal attacks on those who introduce logic into
discussions of audio matters, and in particular, those who have some
knowldge of the relevant principles of physics.

In short, the Middiot attacks people who are better-educated, and think more
clearly than he does.


The point I was making (which I suspect you knew full well in the first
place) was that listening to music in on a system capable of reproducing
the music with greater fidelity to the performance (greater "accuracy")
is, for most audiophiles, more satisfying and enjoyable than listening to
the same music reproduced by a system with minimal accuracy, e.g., a small
table radio.


In other words, greater "accuracy" generally provides a more satisfying
listening experience. YOUR interjection of the suggestion that I somehow
expect or require that we listen to Beethoven, or the RSs or whoever,
"precisely and correctly as they intended to be heard" is, of course, your
own invention. - I never said or implied such a thing. - And I'm well
aware that there are limits to realistic reproduction of an orchestra or
rock group in the home. My point was that most of us generally derive
greater pleasure from listening to good music reproduced with accuracy
(higher fidelity to the original performance) than we do with less
accurate reproduction, e.g., listening to the same music reproduced by a
small table radio.

Nope. I'm just saying that, in general, accuracy is in fact a useful and
desirable quality in audio, and that, in general, it results in a more
satisfying and enjoyable listening experience.

Let's imagine an alternative universe where all audio gear is built
according to Middiot ideology. In the Middiot universe every piece of audio
gear has performance that is tailored by the chief engineer of the company
that builds it, to make all music that passes through it sound the way that
the companies' chief engineer prefers.

In the Middiot universe then, every amplifier has vastly different frequency
response. They all sound different, ironically as Borg and his posse say
they do right now.

In the Middiot universe there are no frequency response specs, no distortion
specs, no noise specs. You have to listen to every amplifier on the market
if you want to make an informed choice, and somehow have a precise memory of
how each amplifier sounds.

So, if you buy a new amplifier in the Middiot universe, your choices are
tremendously limited if you want your system to sound at all the way it did
with your old amplifier. There may be no amplifiers that you can buy without
completely changing the whole rest of your system.

In contrast, consider our present-day universe. Amplifiers tend to sound
pretty much the same within their power ratings. If your old amplifier is
not powerful enough you have a lot of choices as to what your new amplifier
will be.

I guess we can conclude that the Middiot is against people having
alternatives to choose from.

The Krooborg takes a Kroopaganda dump.

One reason why I don't feel threatened by the Middiot is that he speaks in
code. Most newbies aren't going to take time to learn it. Therfore, he's
acting like a transmitter with no active receivers.

Translation: "I, Arnii Krooborg, have such profound language disabilities
that I cannot distinguish day from night, a multiplicity from a
singularity, or a lie from an easily demonstrated fact."

Lack of a life to keep the Middiot busy in productive tasks.

Translation: "As a born-again religionist who passes off volunteer
recordings of my church choir as 'professional recording experience', I
have shown the world my vast expertiese™ in 'productive tasks'."

I don't favor sullying subjectivism by characterizing it as being relevant
to Middiot postings.

Translation: "I, Arnii Krooborg, am so clueless about how Normals select
and deploy their audio equipment that I hate all women and all human beings
who are not insane like I am."

In short, the Middiot attacks people who are better-educated, and think more
clearly than he does.

Translation: "I, Arnii Krooborg, have falsely claimed to have earned a
B.S.E.E. degree; I am consumed with envy of successful audio designers and
publishers; and I am deeply ashamed of my continuing failure to brainwash
human beings into hating the E.H.E.E."

Let's imagine an alternative universe where all audio gear is built
according to Middiot ideology.

Translation: "I'm about to cum!"

I guess we can conclude that the Middiot is against people having
alternatives to choose from.

Translation: "Good job, Billy. Don't forget your Sunday school book. Tell
your mommy you're coming over for another 'training session' on Friday."

On Sep 4, 5:08 pm, George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net
wrote:

Much blather cut.

The only thing clear from this continued and painfully, insanely
idiotic, meaningless and entirely worthless exchange is that the
"commander" and Krueger would shrivel up and die without each other.

Their collective and several life's blood is the attention they gather
from whatever forum they visit with their inane drivel.

If they receive no attention, they are gone. Not even leaving the
presence and importance of a bad smell. Please consign them to the
same oblivion as is merited by Mr. Ludwig and the world will be
improved by their absence.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Kutztown Space 338

"Peter Wieck" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 4, 5:08 pm, George M. Middius cmndr _ george @ comcast . net
wrote:

Much blather cut.

The only thing clear from this continued and painfully, insanely
idiotic, meaningless and entirely worthless exchange is that the
"commander" and Krueger would shrivel up and die without each other.

Peter, your lack of historical perspective is forgiven. I posted on RAO for
many years before the Middiot showed off his butt around here. Therefore, I
have a proven track record of doing quite well without him. OTOH, the
Middiot is quite obviously obsessed with me. Since I'm quite happily
monogamously occupied, his love will go unrequited for eternity.

On Sep 4, 7:41 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Peter, your lack of historical perspective is forgiven. I posted on RAO for
many years before the Middiot showed off his butt around here. Therefore, I
have a proven track record of doing quite well without him. OTOH, the
Middiot is quite obviously obsessed with me. Since I'm quite happily
monogamously occupied, his love will go unrequited for eternity.

Oh, I dunno... the last couple of threads you initiated, and the
various posts made in them make you, Middius, Jute and Ludwig a close-
run thing in terms of differentiating levels of idiocy. And most
certainly the grains of wisdom displayed in the collective product
could be fit on the cover page of a Tom Thumb paperback in 10-point
type... with the majority of the page still blank.

Not meant to be viciously insulting... that I save for Jute & Middius.
But you clearly do not read what you write, for content anyway.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Kutztown Space 338