In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:


Interesting observations. Thanks Dave. But how can that be reconciled
with the all amplifiers sound the same argument? :-)

I've not tried the A21 in any version, nor can I recall anyone
claiming that, "All amplifiers sound the same".


You either have a poor or a very selective memory, Jimbo - or you
perhaps were wise enough not to read all the posts from a former
subscriber here (the Roseate One) who frequently made the claim (as he
slid further into what appeared to be an AV/can't be arsed with 'audio'
vegetative state) that all amplifiers did more or less sound the same
with the preconditions that they were 'good', solid state and cost 300
UKP or more.

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

But I can't recall anyone making such a statement with no qualifiers. If
you can, perhaps you can post the details of who, when, etc. - i.e. give
the date, time, title, etc, of the posting, and the full wording.

My recollection is that a more common claim was something like "all
qualifiers amplifiers sound the same (or indistinguishable) under
specified conditions of use.". Many people have said, this, from PJW
onwards. Alas, it then seems to be routinely changed to remove all
the specifics/qualifiers by someone else who dislikes what was said
and who wants to argue.

I think this is the a version of the 'Straw Man' debate technique. :-)


But in this case the differences
in the output impedances of the two amps might perhaps produce
different frequency responses with a load like the 57.


There ya go for starters...

Indeed. A point that has been made countless times in the past. And so far
as I recall, not contested by anyone who made the qualified claim I give
above. Since I can't recall anyone making the unqualified claim, I can't
say if they'd have objected to what I wrote. But if you can give specifics
I can check. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain
Churches wrote:


Interesting observations. Thanks Dave. But how can that be
reconciled
with the all amplifiers sound the same argument? :-)

I've not tried the A21 in any version, nor can I recall anyone
claiming that, "All amplifiers sound the same".


You either have a poor or a very selective memory, Jimbo - or you
perhaps were wise enough not to read all the posts from a former
subscriber here (the Roseate One) who frequently made the claim (as
he
slid further into what appeared to be an AV/can't be arsed with
'audio'
vegetative state) that all amplifiers did more or less sound the same
with the preconditions that they were 'good', solid state and cost
300
UKP or more.

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".


No, it was clearly stated on more than one occasion that 'all ss
amplifiers sound the same' by the poster (obliquely) referred to above.
When I queried this, I was told 'all *good* ss amplifiers sound the
same'. When I further queried what constituted a 'good' amplifier, I was
told 'anything 300 quid or over' - or words very much to that effect.

(Actually, FWIW, I have no problem with that argument - AFAIAC they do.
:-)



But I can't recall anyone making such a statement with no qualifiers.
If
you can, perhaps you can post the details of who, when, etc. - i.e.
give
the date, time, title, etc, of the posting, and the full wording.


Ain't gonna happen....



My recollection is that a more common claim was something like "all
qualifiers amplifiers sound the same (or indistinguishable) under
specified conditions of use.". Many people have said, this, from PJW
onwards. Alas, it then seems to be routinely changed to remove all
the specifics/qualifiers by someone else who dislikes what was said
and who wants to argue.

I think this is the a version of the 'Straw Man' debate technique. :-)


Possibly, but I have seen the phrase 'Straw Man' misapplied to so many
arguments that I no longer take any notice of it.

From the Whacky Wiki:

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation
of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw
man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute , then
attribute that position to the opponent. A straw man argument can be a
successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading
people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's
actual argument has not been refuted."

Does not apply here with the 'all ss amps sound the same' claim - that
was stated quite clearly by at least one poster who was very Rosy and
not at all Straw...





But in this case the differences
in the output impedances of the two amps might perhaps produce
different frequency responses with a load like the 57.


There ya go for starters...

Indeed. A point that has been made countless times in the past. And so
far
as I recall, not contested by anyone who made the qualified claim I
give
above. Since I can't recall anyone making the unqualified claim, I
can't
say if they'd have objected to what I wrote. But if you can give
specifics
I can check. :-)


Can't do it; wont do it - if nothing else, I'm busy 'grass-seeding' atm!

If it helps to quench this particular point of debate I'll happily
retract with a coppy 'OK, maybe I'm wrong then' as it isn't really worth
pursuing, in my book...

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...



Can't do it; wont do it - if nothing else, I'm busy 'grass-seeding' atm!

I was grass cutting this morning. Finally got the right type of thread for
the strimmer.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

No, it was clearly stated on more than one occasion that 'all ss
amplifiers sound the same' by the poster (obliquely) referred to above.

If it happened so many times, then it should be easy to come up with a quote
from google.

I just did a search, and even after going back 10 years, I find no such
claims except as debating topics as opposed to actual claims.

When I queried this, I was told 'all *good* ss amplifiers sound the same'.
When I further queried what constituted a 'good' amplifier, I was told
'anything 300 quid or over' - or words very much to that effect.

Prove it.

But I can't recall anyone making such a statement with no qualifiers. If
you can, perhaps you can post the details of who, when, etc. - i.e. give
the date, time, title, etc, of the posting, and the full wording.


Ain't gonna happen....

Not unless someone gets careless.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message
that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

No, it was clearly stated on more than one occasion that 'all ss
amplifiers sound the same' by the poster (obliquely) referred to
above.

If it happened so many times, then it should be easy to come up with a
quote from google.

I just did a search, and even after going back 10 years, I find no
such claims except as debating topics as opposed to actual claims.

When I queried this, I was told 'all *good* ss amplifiers sound the
same'. When I further queried what constituted a 'good' amplifier, I
was told 'anything 300 quid or over' - or words very much to that
effect.

Prove it.


No, you prove it - start he

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....10&sa=N&hl=en&


and work your way along...

"Keith G"


** YOU ARE A STINKING ****ING LIAR !!






....... Phil

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

No, it was clearly stated on more than one occasion that 'all ss
amplifiers sound the same' by the poster (obliquely) referred to above.

If it happened so many times, then it should be easy to come up with a
quote from google.

I just did a search, and even after going back 10 years, I find no such
claims except as debating topics as opposed to actual claims.

When I queried this, I was told 'all *good* ss amplifiers sound the
same'. When I further queried what constituted a 'good' amplifier, I was
told 'anything 300 quid or over' - or words very much to that effect.

Prove it.

No, you prove it - start he

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....10&sa=N&hl=en&

Been there, done that. Things are as I said, above.

You know Keith, you're one arrogant POS if you think that you're the only
person around here who can come up with relevant retrievals from Google.

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain
Churches wrote:


Interesting observations. Thanks Dave. But how can that be reconciled
with the all amplifiers sound the same argument? :-)
I've not tried the A21 in any version, nor can I recall anyone
claiming that, "All amplifiers sound the same".


You either have a poor or a very selective memory, Jimbo - or you
perhaps were wise enough not to read all the posts from a former
subscriber here (the Roseate One) who frequently made the claim (as he
slid further into what appeared to be an AV/can't be arsed with 'audio'
vegetative state) that all amplifiers did more or less sound the same
with the preconditions that they were 'good', solid state and cost 300
UKP or more.

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

But I can't recall anyone making such a statement with no qualifiers. If
you can, perhaps you can post the details of who, when, etc. - i.e. give
the date, time, title, etc, of the posting, and the full wording.


I'm afraid I must shoulder some of the blame. It's my contention that
they don't sound the same - far from it.

A couple of people had the patience to explain that most SS amplifiers
built nowadays simply do sound the same to all intents and purposes given:

* a reasonable set of operating parameters, principally relating to
speakers;
* a certain specification, which most off the shelf integrated
amplifiers meet.

Serge (and you) guided me through the whole thing, but I became lost at
a crucial point of measurement (you measure the electrical
specification, I wanted to measure the sound; you said they were the
same thing; I said they might not), and left it at that. I can't get to
grips with google's newsgroup search, but here's a bit of the thread,
from Serge's contribution:

"Price of the amplifier isn't important. It is well recognised, at least
amongst audio professionals, that the ear's ability to hear differences has
a lower threshold. If an amplifier's performance is below that threshold,
then all differences between such amplifiers is not audible."

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....99490883d4a4f8

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

Well, perhaps it was sometimes claimed by one poster in a message
that
*someone else* had said "All amplifiers sound the same".

No, it was clearly stated on more than one occasion that 'all ss
amplifiers sound the same' by the poster (obliquely) referred to
above.

If it happened so many times, then it should be easy to come up with
a quote from google.

I just did a search, and even after going back 10 years, I find no
such claims except as debating topics as opposed to actual claims.

When I queried this, I was told 'all *good* ss amplifiers sound the
same'. When I further queried what constituted a 'good' amplifier,
I was told 'anything 300 quid or over' - or words very much to that
effect.

Prove it.

No, you prove it - start he

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....10&sa=N&hl=en&

Been there, done that. Things are as I said, above.

You know Keith, you're one arrogant POS if you think that you're the
only person around here who can come up with relevant retrievals from
Google.



Not half as arrogant as you, if you think that just because I lead you
to something by the nose that I consider *anybody* else here needs
leading similarly....

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...



Can't do it; wont do it - if nothing else, I'm busy 'grass-seeding'
atm!

I was grass cutting this morning. Finally got the right type of thread
for
the strimmer.


Won't use 'em - not since I strimmed a poor little frog by accident
(didn't see it). We've got too many frogs kicking about here to risk it
again!

Consequently, I have a petrol-driven Kawasaki strimmer here that I won't
ever again use myself or let anyone else have in case it happens again,
even elsewhere!

Hideous, destructive things...