"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:08:40 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Comparison.mp3

I only listened on speakers in my laptop, but even that way, number
two sounded pretty shrill in comparison with 1.


Laptop speakers???

I would have thought this comparison represents the ultimate *extreme*
between two different pairs of mics on a price basis, if nothing else -
well worth a pair of headphones, if not burning to disk and playing over
your hifi system!!

(Hint: A price differential of possibly 100:1 !!??)


Morning Don. A few days ago, during a discussion about
Chinese mics, it occurred to me that it would be interesting
to bi-rig a smallish session for comparison with a normal set-up.

I borrowed five Chinese mics model 2000 made by a company
called SCT. (!!) I believe these are the same microphones
sold by Thoman in Germany with the T Bone badge.

Of the five, one did not work at all, and one pair were opposite
phase to the other pair. Putting this right was not difficult, but
the plan for a tree and two outriggers, five mics in all, could not
be realised.

Yesterday, I sent a short segment to Keith by e-mail, for him to
hear the difference, I did not really expect him to post it. This
is copyright material, even though it is only a first rehearsal. I
have asked him to take it down by 1200 hrs UK time.

As you observed, the Chinese sound is dryer, and considerably
brighter (brittle was the word one of my colleagues used) When
the orchestra is playing in sections, this is not too obtrusive until
the violins start to play. One gets the impression they have barbed
wire strings.

It is not difficult to EQ the two tracks to sound similar, (we
tried an inverted bell with a fairly wide Q centred on 3k8) But
the timbre, particularly of celli is still rather disappointing,
Interesting also that the centre image was difficult to establish
with the Chinkies. The RH mic had more gain.

Difficult to estimate the price differential. Probably 100:1 is
close to the mark.

I have a feeling these mics might be very good indeed on pop
piano, with their forward mid range. I have a very good Decca
compressor with which I would like to try with them.

Iain

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:23:28 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 21:08:40 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...Comparison.mp3

I only listened on speakers in my laptop, but even that way, number
two sounded pretty shrill in comparison with 1.


Laptop speakers???

I would have thought this comparison represents the ultimate *extreme*
between two different pairs of mics on a price basis, if nothing else -
well worth a pair of headphones, if not burning to disk and playing over
your hifi system!!

(Hint: A price differential of possibly 100:1 !!??)


Morning Don. A few days ago, during a discussion about
Chinese mics, it occurred to me that it would be interesting
to bi-rig a smallish session for comparison with a normal set-up.

I borrowed five Chinese mics model 2000 made by a company
called SCT. (!!) I believe these are the same microphones
sold by Thoman in Germany with the T Bone badge.

Of the five, one did not work at all, and one pair were opposite
phase to the other pair. Putting this right was not difficult, but
the plan for a tree and two outriggers, five mics in all, could not
be realised.

Yesterday, I sent a short segment to Keith by e-mail, for him to
hear the difference, I did not really expect him to post it. This
is copyright material, even though it is only a first rehearsal. I
have asked him to take it down by 1200 hrs UK time.

As you observed, the Chinese sound is dryer, and considerably
brighter (brittle was the word one of my colleagues used) When
the orchestra is playing in sections, this is not too obtrusive until
the violins start to play. One gets the impression they have barbed
wire strings.

It is not difficult to EQ the two tracks to sound similar, (we
tried an inverted bell with a fairly wide Q centred on 3k8) But
the timbre, particularly of celli is still rather disappointing,
Interesting also that the centre image was difficult to establish
with the Chinkies. The RH mic had more gain.

Difficult to estimate the price differential. Probably 100:1 is
close to the mark.

I have a feeling these mics might be very good indeed on pop
piano, with their forward mid range. I have a very good Decca
compressor with which I would like to try with them.

Iain





Did you listen to my equalization? I think it turned out quite well,
but with this mic we might be at or beyond the limit of what can be
rescued. My eq was considerably more complex than the one you tried -
I used the FFT filter in Audition, so I think it has possibly made a
better job of removing those sharp barbs from the strings.

I could have done with some content above 9kHz to do a proper job
though. It all sounded very filtered by the low rate MP3 coding.

I suppose that when you are producing rather than recording music,the
word "bad" doesn't come into it (apart from perhaps unreliability). A
mic is either right or wrong for a job.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:23:28 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


Yesterday, I sent a short segment to Keith by e-mail, for him to
hear the difference, I did not really expect him to post it. This
is copyright material, even though it is only a first rehearsal. I
have asked him to take it down by 1200 hrs UK time.


I've only just managed to do that - Pipex was having one of its 'turns'
and not letting me (or *anybody* else) on! The chances that your clients
are among the dozen or so visitors I get each week are possibly slim (??
:-) and even if they were, the chances they hit that link before I
nipped it are, I would have thought, even slimmer...!!??

(If there's any comeback, tell them there's *no charge* for the free
publicity!! ;-)

Asittapens, it looks like the Pipex webspace is on and off like a
whore's drawers anyway - so I doubt *anybody* will get on much for a
while yet!!



It is not difficult to EQ the two tracks to sound similar, (we
tried an inverted bell with a fairly wide Q centred on 3k8) But
the timbre, particularly of celli is still rather disappointing,
Interesting also that the centre image was difficult to establish
with the Chinkies. The RH mic had more gain.


Yet the waveform in SoundForge shows the Left Channel to be a little
'louder' if anything?


Did you listen to my equalization? I think it turned out quite well,
but with this mic we might be at or beyond the limit of what can be
rescued. My eq was considerably more complex than the one you tried -
I used the FFT filter in Audition, so I think it has possibly made a
better job of removing those sharp barbs from the strings.


I think your EQ job went a long way to ironing out the differences...



I could have done with some content above 9kHz to do a proper job
though. It all sounded very filtered by the low rate MP3 coding.



....as did that...


I suppose that when you are producing rather than recording music,the
word "bad" doesn't come into it (apart from perhaps unreliability). A
mic is either right or wrong for a job.


Yes. I wouldn't have thought anyone in his right mind would expect a
dirt cheap generic/unbranded Chinese mic to outperform or even in any
way match a Neumann or similar mic and use one for serious, commercial
work.

The point, once again, is that the cheepy Chinky stuff is, if nothing
else, cheep enough to allow people to 'have a go' and is probably plenty
good enough for use in bedroom studios! That said, it does look like
it's possibly to take *cheapskating* a little too far - with both mics
and valve amps. I think (and hope) the more plausible-looking *brands*
like the CAD and SE Electronics I have here are a wee bit different.
When I get the 'replacement' valve mic - another CAD:

http://www.cadmics.com/Trion8000.htm


I will post a (probably final) set of clips for comparison purposes when
I can get Swim revved up on the clart and joanna - may even jingle a set
of keys as well!!

(What I would like is a pair of Neumanns *and* a pair of 'Unbranded
Chinkies' to complete the spectrum, but I'm not about to go and *buy*
either one!! :-)

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:30:31 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:23:28 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


Yesterday, I sent a short segment to Keith by e-mail, for him to
hear the difference, I did not really expect him to post it. This
is copyright material, even though it is only a first rehearsal. I
have asked him to take it down by 1200 hrs UK time.


I've only just managed to do that - Pipex was having one of its 'turns'
and not letting me (or *anybody* else) on! The chances that your clients
are among the dozen or so visitors I get each week are possibly slim (??
:-) and even if they were, the chances they hit that link before I
nipped it are, I would have thought, even slimmer...!!??

(If there's any comeback, tell them there's *no charge* for the free
publicity!! ;-)

Asittapens, it looks like the Pipex webspace is on and off like a
whore's drawers anyway - so I doubt *anybody* will get on much for a
while yet!!



It is not difficult to EQ the two tracks to sound similar, (we
tried an inverted bell with a fairly wide Q centred on 3k8) But
the timbre, particularly of celli is still rather disappointing,
Interesting also that the centre image was difficult to establish
with the Chinkies. The RH mic had more gain.


Yet the waveform in SoundForge shows the Left Channel to be a little
'louder' if anything?


Yup, there was about a dB in it.


Did you listen to my equalization? I think it turned out quite well,
but with this mic we might be at or beyond the limit of what can be
rescued. My eq was considerably more complex than the one you tried -
I used the FFT filter in Audition, so I think it has possibly made a
better job of removing those sharp barbs from the strings.


I think your EQ job went a long way to ironing out the differences...


I've taken my eq'd version down now, so anyone who hasn't heard and
wanted to - too late.


I could have done with some content above 9kHz to do a proper job
though. It all sounded very filtered by the low rate MP3 coding.



...as did that...


I suppose that when you are producing rather than recording music,the
word "bad" doesn't come into it (apart from perhaps unreliability). A
mic is either right or wrong for a job.


Yes. I wouldn't have thought anyone in his right mind would expect a
dirt cheap generic/unbranded Chinese mic to outperform or even in any
way match a Neumann or similar mic and use one for serious, commercial
work.

The point, once again, is that the cheepy Chinky stuff is, if nothing
else, cheep enough to allow people to 'have a go' and is probably plenty
good enough for use in bedroom studios! That said, it does look like
it's possibly to take *cheapskating* a little too far - with both mics
and valve amps. I think (and hope) the more plausible-looking *brands*
like the CAD and SE Electronics I have here are a wee bit different.
When I get the 'replacement' valve mic - another CAD:

http://www.cadmics.com/Trion8000.htm


I will post a (probably final) set of clips for comparison purposes when
I can get Swim revved up on the clart and joanna - may even jingle a set
of keys as well!!


Turn the gain right down when you jingle the keys, you won't believe
how loud they are, and I guarantee the first try will clip badly.

(What I would like is a pair of Neumanns *and* a pair of 'Unbranded
Chinkies' to complete the spectrum, but I'm not about to go and *buy*
either one!! :-)



I'd settle for the Neumanns and forget the Chinkies, on balance.


d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:30:31 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Yet the waveform in SoundForge shows the Left Channel to be a little
'louder' if anything?


Yup, there was about a dB in it.



I will post a (probably final) set of clips for comparison purposes
when
I can get Swim revved up on the clart and joanna - may even jingle a
set
of keys as well!!


Turn the gain right down when you jingle the keys, you won't believe
how loud they are, and I guarantee the first try will clip badly.


One thing I have used over the years to check the sound from LP (carts,
decks, speakers, phono stages &c.) is the sound of the coins on the
plate at the beginning and end of Vangelis' 'The City' where Roman
Polanski 'buys a sandwich' - the differences can be quite a surprise!!
Another good one is the 'telephone' on one of my Laurie Anderson LPs...



(What I would like is a pair of Neumanns *and* a pair of 'Unbranded
Chinkies' to complete the spectrum, but I'm not about to go and *buy*
either one!! :-)



I'd settle for the Neumanns and forget the Chinkies, on balance.


Oh, alright then...

:-)

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:30:31 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

I've only just managed to do that - Pipex was having one of its 'turns'
and not letting me (or *anybody* else) on! The chances that your clients
are among the dozen or so visitors I get each week are possibly slim (??
:-) and even if they were, the chances they hit that link before I
nipped it are, I would have thought, even slimmer...!!??

(If there's any comeback, tell them there's *no charge* for the free
publicity!! ;-)

Asittapens, it looks like the Pipex webspace is on and off like a
whore's drawers anyway - so I doubt *anybody* will get on much for a
while yet!!

Have you talked to Pipex? The girl there today said only some users
were affected, and it helped them to know WHICH ones as they hadn't
yet found the cause.

Asittapens, it looks like the Pipex webspace is on and off like a
whore's drawers anyway - so I doubt *anybody* will get on much for a
while yet!!

Have you talked to Pipex? The girl there today said only some users
were affected, and it helped them to know WHICH ones as they hadn't
yet found the cause.

I see mine's back. But still no FTP access.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:01:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

One thing I have used over the years to check the sound from LP (carts,
decks, speakers, phono stages &c.) is the sound of the coins on the
plate at the beginning and end of Vangelis' 'The City' where Roman
Polanski 'buys a sandwich' - the differences can be quite a surprise!!
Another good one is the 'telephone' on one of my Laurie Anderson LPs...

Just for fun, record some coins on a plate (no clipping) and check
visually on your DAW the difference in dynamic range between your
recording and that on the LP. I think you will be quite surprised just
how clipped and limited the LP is.

That isn't a criticism, btw, just absolutely vital if they are to
audible at all.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...

Asittapens, it looks like the Pipex webspace is on and off like a
whore's drawers anyway - so I doubt *anybody* will get on much for a
while yet!!

Have you talked to Pipex? The girl there today said only some users
were affected, and it helped them to know WHICH ones as they hadn't
yet found the cause.

I see mine's back. But still no FTP access.


Mine seems OK atm...?!? (See the new clips in my reply to Don!)

Pipex does this from to time but it doesn't matter normally - it only
got a bit awkward trying to get Iain's tracks off...

"Don Pearce" wrote

Just for fun, record some coins on a plate (no clipping) and check
visually on your DAW the difference in dynamic range between your
recording and that on the LP. I think you will be quite surprised just
how clipped and limited the LP is.

That isn't a criticism, btw, just absolutely vital if they are to
audible at all.


Don, you and other 'reasonable people' never have to excuse your
comments/criticisms to me - if it (anything) is ****e then fekkin' say
so - I can handle it!! What learning I have done from posting here has
been from criticisms (unsurprisingly) and I certainly don't post to seek
praise!!

Now, that said - here is the passage I refer to in CD and LP form (check
the filenames):

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SandwichCD.mp3

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/SandwichLP.mp3


The record unfortunately is a scruffy one (bootleg) and Swim who is
immune to surface noise anyway (not getting any younger :-) says:
'Bugger all difference to me!?'

Wot say you - much lost on the LP version of what seems to be the same
master? Spitchiness aside, naturally...