So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

In article i, Iain
Churches wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...


I am not trying to get involved in the argument about sets, but those
numbers seem a bit extreme. This is the result of one of my 300b SET's
running at 1w into 8R (resistive)

There is no argument. Nick. Just a discussion to establish why SET does
not seem to make a very good job of reproducing complex music. Your
findings would be of interest.

The "Out of Tune" item on audiomisc may help here. It illustrates the
consequences of using SET topologies for music where the instrumental
tuning system isn't confined to simple integer ratios.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

Here is the link to the spectral analysis of the distortion
of the SET amp. Copious amounts of 3H and 7H.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ETSpectrum.jpg


In contrast, here is a parallel PP EL34 50W amp, also at 5W

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...50Spectrum.jpg



Iain, rather than get into yet another 'SET vs. The Rest Of The World'
exchange here (it ends with 'pleasant' and 'realistic' for me),

As discussed with Nick, I was interested in an exchange of ideas, and
to see the spectral analysis of the SET (and compare it with something I
know well) and I thought others might be interested too.

I'll just point you to some of the pages of the late, great Fred Nachbur
who, it seems to me, is able to examine the characteristics and properties
of SET topologies with a rare *evenhandedness* and offer the most
interesting suggestions as to why, in fact, SET amplifiers do sound
*special*:

Start he

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/miniblk1.htm


Yes I have known about Fred N's pages for years. I think that, perhaps
with one exception, the people who have responded to this part of
the thread, appreciate what a SET has to offer, in terms of "musicality"

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article i, Iain
Churches wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...


I am not trying to get involved in the argument about sets, but those
numbers seem a bit extreme. This is the result of one of my 300b SET's
running at 1w into 8R (resistive)

There is no argument. Nick. Just a discussion to establish why SET does
not seem to make a very good job of reproducing complex music. Your
findings would be of interest.

The "Out of Tune" item on audiomisc may help here. It illustrates the
consequences of using SET topologies for music where the instrumental
tuning system isn't confined to simple integer ratios.


Indeed. The 13th chord which I mentioned is a good illistration, and
illustrates the point even on the piano. But when you get five or
six instruments playing the notes of that chord, then it starts to get
*really* intreresting.

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:
Here is the link to the spectral analysis of the distortion
of the SET amp. Copious amounts of 3H and 7H.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ETSpectrum.jpg


In contrast, here is a parallel PP EL34 50W amp, also at 5W

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...50Spectrum.jpg


Although perhaps an extreme case, I think this illustrates what
seem to be the shortcomings of SET topology. I can however
see why they are popular, they do give pleasing results with certain
types of music, and (up to a certain level) they are fairly simple to
build, with no instability problems.

Iain

PS The Zo of the SET I tested is 3.2 Ohms.







Well, it might be a little more of a valid comparison if you ran the SET
at (say) 0.8w so the test was at a similar proportion of rated max output
power.

Hi Nick. Yes I agree with your points. Even at 1W this SET has about
1% THD while the PPP is at about 0.03% So the ratio still holds.

And if you wanted to compair topology, instead of individual examples, it
might be interesting to run the PP with zero feedback. What would the PP
amps Zo be without feedback I wonder?

Well, I was interested to compare the two products as they are offered.
I do agree with you that the PPP which has some 12-15dB of NFB would
not be so good open loop, but that is not how it is used.

But I also agree with you that this particularly SET also has a number of
design shortcomings, which, although it is not broken, in the real sense
of the term, detract from better performance.


I think the problem is that a 300b SET should be considered as a 1w
amplifer with soft clipping above that level, and as such, I think the PP
would also be expected to fare badly if asked to reproduce music at a
constant 60w level.

Well, the PPP can manage 0.1% at 50W so it is probably considerably
better than 1% at 60W.

But if the goal was efficiency, high power output, low distortion and high
damping factor, what possible reason can there be for using a PP El34 amp,
I would have thought a nice mosfet amp would have met your goals far
better

'Cos I like the way it plays music:-))

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

Here is the link to the spectral analysis of the distortion
of the SET amp. Copious amounts of 3H and 7H.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ETSpectrum.jpg


In contrast, here is a parallel PP EL34 50W amp, also at 5W

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...50Spectrum.jpg



Iain, rather than get into yet another 'SET vs. The Rest Of The
World' exchange here (it ends with 'pleasant' and 'realistic' for
me),

As discussed with Nick, I was interested in an exchange of ideas, and
to see the spectral analysis of the SET (and compare it with something
I
know well) and I thought others might be interested too.


Fine, but when people start quoting 'distortion figures' for valve amps
(SETs in particular) it seems to me that it's bit like getting carried
away with the E numbers listed on the label and the taste of the actual
item is quickly forgotten. Also, to imply SET can't do much more than
play female vocals and small chamber ensembles is more than a little
misleading, IMO!

What is often overlooked, I feel, is that there are (whether anyone
likes it or not) certain 'synergies' when it comes to hooking audio
components together and choice of these will be heavily influenced by
listening room conditions, the recorded medium itself and music/audio
preferences. As I have said 8.5 million times now, only 25% of my amps
are SETs; I can (and do) move instantly between different systems for
different types of music and, over a fairly long period of 'mixing and
matching', have evolved the following 'rough rules' for my own
listening:

Low power SET amps can drive 'normal' speakers of modest sensitivity but
not to great levels with the result that, although it may be interesting
to do, it is mostly a futile exercise. That said, I would only ever say
to someone to try it - not everyone plays music/movies as loud as I
often do!

SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and it's almost
always a waste of time.

DAB radio does not benefit from SET/horn playback - voices are not good
(male especially) while FM radio does not benefit from SS amps and
'wideband', 'normal speakers' as there can be too much low-level noise,
especially in the evenings....

Horns are not best for movies as they do not go low enough in many
instances, although the clarity in voices can help where the soundtrack
isn't too good..

Horns are best for vinyl because (disregarding contentious
considerations like 'realism', 'space' and 'air'), although they will
accentuate HF surface noise on poor records, they do not produce the low
level noise that is often present in vinyl playback.

Good PP valve amps can sound as good as a SET on horns and will have
more clout, but are not as beguiling/listenable in the long run while
CDs are always improved by any valve amp (on the appropriate speakers),
no matter what....

And so on....

Consequently, I tend to use a SET amp for playing LPs on 'horns' while
most other sources (Radio, TV, DVD, CD) are usually routed through an SS
system into multiway 'normal' speakers. (Sounds more complicated than it
is! ;-)

.....then factor in 'aesthetic' considerations and tell me playing 50's
Jazz from a CD (or iPod?) on an SS amp feeding a pair of small
'HiFi/Cinema' lifestyle speakers isn't a *technologically superior* way
of missing the whole point and selling the situation short by a few
miles...??

:-)


Yes I have known about Fred N's pages for years. I think that,
perhaps
with one exception, the people who have responded to this part of
the thread, appreciate what a SET has to offer, in terms of
"musicality"


Sure, but see above....

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

In article i, Iain
Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message


The "Out of Tune" item on audiomisc may help here. It illustrates the
consequences of using SET topologies for music where the instrumental
tuning system isn't confined to simple integer ratios.


Indeed. The 13th chord which I mentioned is a good illistration, and
illustrates the point even on the piano. But when you get five or six
instruments playing the notes of that chord, then it starts to get
*really* intreresting.

A colleague of mine, many years ago, used to like to take people climbing
and/or hill-walking. We learned to be wary of his use of the term
"interesting". It seemed to mean things like traversing a steep (80 deg)
surface of crumbly material with no ropes, etc. :-)

On at least one 'walk' with him I got back to find my fingers were still
bleeding from clinging to the surfaces. I had not noticed at the time as my
mind had been attending to more urgent matters of survival!

For some reason your wording made me think of that. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article i, Iain
Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message


The "Out of Tune" item on audiomisc may help here. It illustrates the
consequences of using SET topologies for music where the instrumental
tuning system isn't confined to simple integer ratios.


Indeed. The 13th chord which I mentioned is a good illistration, and
illustrates the point even on the piano. But when you get five or six
instruments playing the notes of that chord, then it starts to get
*really* intreresting.

A colleague of mine, many years ago, used to like to take people climbing
and/or hill-walking. We learned to be wary of his use of the term
"interesting". It seemed to mean things like traversing a steep (80 deg)
surface of crumbly material with no ropes, etc. :-)

On at least one 'walk' with him I got back to find my fingers were still
bleeding from clinging to the surfaces. I had not noticed at the time as
my
mind had been attending to more urgent matters of survival!

For some reason your wording made me think of that. ;-

Yes:-) That's a good example of the English understatement.

It is certainly so of SET. I am beguiled by the fact that something which
on paper looks so "modest" can produce such breathtakingly lifelike
music.

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with horns,
and they can sound wonderful.

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with
horns, and they can sound wonderful.


OK, it's a quick 'banana plug' chop so *just for you* I wired my
Fidelios to the Technics SS (MOSFET) amp to revisit/check and it's been
very interesting....

Better than I remember, I hafta say, with a lot more bass (and low-level
noise) from FM Radio which could well be down to the fact that the
Fidelios seem to have 'come of age' recently and have found a lot more
bass. CD still suffers comparative loss of image and spaciality (that
planar quality creeping in again) and vinyl just sounded *tired*, but
that was on the Control Amp's own SS phono stage which could well
explain that! - DAB radio was probably the best of the lot!!

But, having said all that, I could well imagine it would get a thumbs up
from the great majority!

(Annoying really, as I could swap between two sets of vastly different
speakers to suit different sources at the press of a single button - if
I could live without the SET amp on the Fidelios! ;-)

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with
horns, and they can sound wonderful.


OK, it's a quick 'banana plug' chop so *just for you* I wired my
Fidelios to the Technics SS (MOSFET) amp to revisit/check and it's been
very interesting....

Better than I remember, I hafta say, with a lot more bass (and low-level
noise) from FM Radio which could well be down to the fact that the
Fidelios seem to have 'come of age' recently and have found a lot more
bass. CD still suffers comparative loss of image and spaciality (that
planar quality creeping in again) and vinyl just sounded *tired*, but
that was on the Control Amp's own SS phono stage which could well
explain that! -



DAB radio was probably the best of the lot!!

Jesus Keith!, what are you -on- there?!.....

But, having said all that, I could well imagine it would get a thumbs up
from the great majority!

(Annoying really, as I could swap between two sets of vastly different
speakers to suit different sources at the press of a single button - if
I could live without the SET amp on the Fidelios! ;-)





--
Tony Sayer