So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with
horns, and they can sound wonderful.


OK, it's a quick 'banana plug' chop so *just for you* I wired my
Fidelios to the Technics SS (MOSFET) amp to revisit/check and it's
been very interesting....

Better than I remember, I hafta say, with a lot more bass (and
low-level noise) from FM Radio which could well be down to the fact
that the Fidelios seem to have 'come of age' recently and have found a
lot more bass. CD still suffers comparative loss of image and
spaciality (that planar quality creeping in again) and vinyl just
sounded *tired*, but that was on the Control Amp's own SS phono stage
which could well explain that! - DAB radio was probably the best of
the lot!!

But, having said all that, I could well imagine it would get a thumbs
up from the great majority!

(Annoying really, as I could swap between two sets of vastly different
speakers to suit different sources at the press of a single button -
if I could live without the SET amp on the Fidelios! ;-)



Forget that - after I had posted the above a radio presenter came on and
voices are still 'quacky' on the SS amp/horn setup....

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
m...
"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with
horns, and they can sound wonderful.


OK, it's a quick 'banana plug' chop so *just for you* I wired my
Fidelios to the Technics SS (MOSFET) amp to revisit/check and it's
been
very interesting....

Better than I remember, I hafta say, with a lot more bass (and
low-level
noise) from FM Radio which could well be down to the fact that the
Fidelios seem to have 'come of age' recently and have found a lot more
bass. CD still suffers comparative loss of image and spaciality (that
planar quality creeping in again) and vinyl just sounded *tired*, but
that was on the Control Amp's own SS phono stage which could well
explain that! -



DAB radio was probably the best of the lot!!

Jesus Keith!, what are you -on- there?!.....


Classic FM, asitappens - far too much 'slurry' on FM tonight!!

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

Here is the link to the spectral analysis of the distortion
of the SET amp. Copious amounts of 3H and 7H.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ETSpectrum.jpg


In contrast, here is a parallel PP EL34 50W amp, also at 5W

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...50Spectrum.jpg



Iain, rather than get into yet another 'SET vs. The Rest Of The World'
exchange here (it ends with 'pleasant' and 'realistic' for me),

As discussed with Nick, I was interested in an exchange of ideas, and
to see the spectral analysis of the SET (and compare it with something I
know well) and I thought others might be interested too.


Fine, but when people start quoting 'distortion figures' for valve amps
(SETs in particular) it seems to me that it's bit like getting carried
away with the E numbers listed on the label and the taste of the actual
item is quickly forgotten.

It seems that the THD itself is not so important as the way
in which that total is made up, i.e. the relationship of
2H,3H,4H,5H etc that is important. It may be this which
gives each amp its sonic signature.


Also, to imply SET can't do much more than play female vocals and small
chamber ensembles is more than a little misleading, IMO!

Many people seem to agree that is what they are best at.
I share that opinion. As I have mentioned before the
Resnekov plays Shostakovich like I have never heard it before.

What is often overlooked, I feel, is that there are (whether anyone likes
it or not) certain 'synergies' when it comes to hooking audio components
together and choice of these will be heavily influenced by listening room
conditions, the recorded medium itself and music/audio preferences.

Indeed. I think we are all agreed about that.

As I have said 8.5 million times now, only 25% of my amps
are SETs; I can (and do) move instantly between different systems for
different types of music and, over a fairly long period of 'mixing and
matching', have evolved the following 'rough rules' for my own listening:

Low power SET amps can drive 'normal' speakers of modest sensitivity but
not to great levels with the result that, although it may be interesting
to do, it is mostly a futile exercise. That said, I would only ever say to
someone to try it - not everyone plays music/movies as loud as I often do!

Understood.

SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and it's almost always
a waste of time.

Agreed. SET and horns can make a very pleasing combination

DAB radio does not benefit from SET/horn playback - voices are not good
(male especially) while FM radio does not benefit from SS amps and
'wideband', 'normal speakers' as there can be too much low-level noise,
especially in the evenings....

I don't listen to DAB radio and so cannot comment.

Horns are best for vinyl because (disregarding contentious considerations
like 'realism', 'space' and 'air'), although they will accentuate HF
surface noise on poor records, they do not produce the low level noise
that is often present in vinyl playback.

Good PP valve amps can sound as good as a SET on horns and will have more
clout, but are not as beguiling/listenable in the long run

Yes that seems to be a widely held view - especially by those who
have become enraptured with SET.

But do not forget what is perhaps the main reason why SET is so popular
with DIY builders. It is (up to a certain level) very simple to build,
requiring
little or no test equipment. There is every chance the amp will work first
time
without the stability problems that lurk inherently in every tube PP
amplifier.

while
CDs are always improved by any valve amp (on the appropriate speakers), no
matter what....

I will leave it to someone else to reply to that para:-) I am not sure
how a CD can be "improved" It can certainly be made to sound
different.


....then factor in 'aesthetic' considerations and tell me playing 50's
Jazz from a CD (or iPod?) on an SS amp feeding a pair of small
'HiFi/Cinema' lifestyle speakers isn't a *technologically superior* way of
missing the whole point and selling the situation short by a few
miles...??

I use a PP amp because it can make a good job of most material.
I do not claim it is more accurate than (or even as accurate as) the
Crown Macrotech usually used in monitoring recordings, but it
certainly gives a very musical rendition.

I would also like to have SET (and plan to discuss a design with Nick
when the time is right) for playing certain types of music.

Yes I have known about Fred N's pages for years. I think that, perhaps
with one exception, the people who have responded to this part of
the thread, appreciate what a SET has to offer, in terms of "musicality"


Sure, but see above....

You are preaching to the converted here, Keith.
You will recall not long ago I reported on both my visit to
the Lowther group, and also my experiences with the Resnekov.
But still I wanted to *see* why the two amps
sound different. I think I know now.

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:51:32 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

It seems that the THD itself is not so important as the way
in which that total is made up, i.e. the relationship of
2H,3H,4H,5H etc that is important. It may be this which
gives each amp its sonic signature.

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway. What matters is that distortion - any
distortion, even or odd - produces intermods. These products are
non-harmonic and certainly for music with any degree of complexity
will be dissonant. If the distortion level is moderately low, the
result will just be a sort of "thickening" of the sound, which may
indeed be more interesting than the unadorned music.

For a few minutes, that may be attractive, but after a very short time
I find it starts to get tiring because the effect doesn't change,
there is just this permanent grunge underlying everything.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:51:32 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

It seems that the THD itself is not so important as the way
in which that total is made up, i.e. the relationship of
2H,3H,4H,5H etc that is important. It may be this which
gives each amp its sonic signature.

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway.

Yes indeed. It is precisely those harmonics which allow
us to identify and differentiate between instruments, and so
by adding to them, we are affecting the timbre of the instrument
we are listening to. In excess, this starts to make say, all
acoustic guitars sound similar.

What matters is that distortion - any
distortion, even or odd - produces intermods. These products are
non-harmonic and certainly for music with any degree of complexity
will be dissonant.

Yep.My 13th chord is the perfect example. That's why SET is better
at less complex music.


If the distortion level is moderately low, the
result will just be a sort of "thickening" of the sound, which may
indeed be more interesting than the unadorned music.

:-)

For a few minutes, that may be attractive, but after a very short time
I find it starts to get tiring because the effect doesn't change,
there is just this permanent grunge underlying everything.

But the permanent grunge is transitory, shifting constantly, like
a mud bank (or even a sandstorm!!). You can hear this in the music.

Iain

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:51:32 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

It seems that the THD itself is not so important as the way in which
that total is made up, i.e. the relationship of 2H,3H,4H,5H etc that is
important. It may be this which gives each amp its sonic signature.

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway. What matters is that distortion - any
distortion, even or odd - produces intermods. These products are
non-harmonic and certainly for music with any degree of complexity will
be dissonant. If the distortion level is moderately low, the result will
just be a sort of "thickening" of the sound, which may indeed be more
interesting than the unadorned music.

For a few minutes, that may be attractive, but after a very short time I
find it starts to get tiring because the effect doesn't change, there is
just this permanent grunge underlying everything.

I have started wondering if there is a parallel with adding 'brown sauce'
to a plate of food. Does this parallel only make sense in the UK?... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:51:59 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 09:51:32 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

It seems that the THD itself is not so important as the way
in which that total is made up, i.e. the relationship of
2H,3H,4H,5H etc that is important. It may be this which
gives each amp its sonic signature.

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway.

Yes indeed. It is precisely those harmonics which allow
us to identify and differentiate between instruments, and so
by adding to them, we are affecting the timbre of the instrument
we are listening to. In excess, this starts to make say, all
acoustic guitars sound similar.

What matters is that distortion - any
distortion, even or odd - produces intermods. These products are
non-harmonic and certainly for music with any degree of complexity
will be dissonant.

Yep.My 13th chord is the perfect example. That's why SET is better
at less complex music.


I would say "not quite so disastrous" rather than better.


If the distortion level is moderately low, the
result will just be a sort of "thickening" of the sound, which may
indeed be more interesting than the unadorned music.

:-)

For a few minutes, that may be attractive, but after a very short time
I find it starts to get tiring because the effect doesn't change,
there is just this permanent grunge underlying everything.

But the permanent grunge is transitory, shifting constantly, like
a mud bank (or even a sandstorm!!). You can hear this in the music.

Iain


For those who like to listen to their music while sitting in a
shifting mud bank, that is pretty much perfect.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:51:59 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway.

Yes indeed. It is precisely those harmonics which allow
us to identify and differentiate between instruments, and so
by adding to them, we are affecting the timbre of the instrument
we are listening to.

Actually, a large part of an instrument's sound signature is contained
in the initial attack of the note. Though this transient (as any
sound) COULD be analysed at any point in time as a sum of many
sinewaves, this would not be a particularly useful exercise.

This is why the type of hybrid sythesiser that uses a sampled attack,
synthesised sustain is so playable. The sampled part provides
realism, the synthesised sustain portion is very controllable.

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
om...
"Keith G" wrote in message


SS amps rarely (if ever) sound very good on 'horns' and
it's almost always a waste of time.

Strange since SS amps are widely used in pro sound applications with
horns, and they can sound wonderful.


OK, it's a quick 'banana plug' chop so *just for you* I wired my
Fidelios to the Technics SS (MOSFET) amp to revisit/check and it's
been
very interesting....

Better than I remember, I hafta say, with a lot more bass (and
low-level
noise) from FM Radio which could well be down to the fact that the
Fidelios seem to have 'come of age' recently and have found a lot more
bass. CD still suffers comparative loss of image and spaciality (that
planar quality creeping in again) and vinyl just sounded *tired*, but
that was on the Control Amp's own SS phono stage which could well
explain that! -



DAB radio was probably the best of the lot!!

Jesus Keith!, what are you -on- there?!.....


Classic FM, asitappens - far too much 'slurry' on FM tonight!!



You need a decent erection I reckon!, got the best tuner in the world
and feed it with a bit of damp string or that cowboy frigged aerial!...
--
Tony Sayer

So what are the best Chinese valve amps???
 

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 10:51:59 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Harmonic distortion itself is really not so important for music, which
is loaded with harmonics anyway.

Yes indeed. It is precisely those harmonics which allow
us to identify and differentiate between instruments, and so
by adding to them, we are affecting the timbre of the instrument
we are listening to.

Actually, a large part of an instrument's sound signature is contained
in the initial attack of the note.

Indeed. It is interesting to investigate two similar instruments of
the same family (a Guild and a Martin acoustic guitar being the
excample often demonstrated to students)

Iain